Strider SNG - This Thing ROCKS!!! A Brief Review w/ CRK Comparisons... (Pic Heavy)

I have an SNG thats( I think) about 8 years old. It's the first gen. I DO Flick it open all day for no reason. It has never developed blade play. if it did I'd send it in and have it fixed for free. If it developed play from throwing it, I'd send it in and have it fixed for free. If I threw it all week then traded it to You, You could send it in and have it fixed for free.

If You look it the picture of the lock-up that the OP posted, the Ti lock bar can NEVER go all the way to the other side because of the notch or ramp on the blade tang.( maybe after 30 years. My Seb moved all the way across in 1 year and is now developing vertical BP.

As for the ''shit vent'', Hinderer has one. SO MANY CUSTOM TI FRAME LOCKS HAVE THEM I CAN'T COUNT. The DPX HEST Has it. and so do Lion Steel Frame locks.

Some of the people knocking strider here are so knowledgeable they don't even know if it's a custom SNG or not because it's got flamed Titanium.

Like I said before. Striders are the ONLY folders I have, or know of that actually look BETTER all F%$#^& UP and used to Hell and back. Who cares if the hand hammered logo stamp is a little off. Is it sharp? is it tough? Are You scared to scratch it? Probably not. If You're one of those people that's probably the folder for You. And a Grayman is Probably the Fixed blade
 
And what other knife has a BULL PIVOT? The blade will snap before that gives, then make a point again on a rock if it came down to it. I Bet if they where around back in the day the American Indian would love them. "Pivot Strong like bull".
 
Ankerson I hope you dont mind chipping in here with a few words from a man who is a maker himself and some comments he posted on locks.

STR on locks as I like to call it, specifically on the framelock:

Frame locks.

I like a lot of frame locks. Many more than I can mention in one post I'm sure. I like and use a Storm II by Kershaw quite often. I am also quite fond of the Groove and the S2 by CRKT for inexpensive choices.

For a more expensive smaller frame lock I like the Leeks and knives like the Spyderco Salsa ti frame locking compression lock which is another fine little folder if you can still find it.

All of these seemed to be very high quality nicer folders for the money when they were available to me and I used the tar out of them to test them learning that they can be trusted and that they are built quite well.

Higher cost frame lock folders, I like the large Sebenza best and consider it to be probably the best engineered folder of this style made followed by the Zero Tolerance 301 and 302 folder which I think are probably the two finest frame locks ever offered in a production model period although all of these are far larger than I'd ever carry I think. The Camillus CudaMaxx is another super built frame lock that has everything about it done right but again far larger than is practical for this knife user.

Axis locks. I really really like the HK 14200, 14205 and 14210 best of all that I've owned but also the Griptilians with the opening hole blades and the Doug Ritter RSK Griptilian is very nice. As far as a size and a balanced system that comes together to form a perfect folder it doesn't get much better than any of these in my opinion.

I like the Dodo and its really the only ball lock folder I've ever had that I kept. However the D'Allara is nice but a bit thick for my tastes overall really which is why I got rid of mine. The ball lock is a great design though and super strong when the ball engages as it should. I can say the same for the axis, arc, and Cold Steel's version the Ultra Lock. All of these are the best locks ever devised I think.

I have always liked the Para Military and the compression lock design for strength and reliability too and had three but never kept any of them. I'd love to see the Para in a lockback personally because I just love the blade. I just have not taken to the lock personally but its a very strong well thought out design that works also.

Actually if the Para Military and Military were offered by Spyderco in a .125 frame lock I'd have one of each because of how much I love the blades of both folders but the Millie again is far larger than I find practical for daily carry.

STR

Most of the wear on liner and frame locks is due to the difference in hardness between the lock and blade I think but it is also the relationship of how most are made. When you really study these locks only a very small amount of the bottom of the lock face is actually in contact with the blade considering the width and thickness of the lock. This mass of lock to behold gives the appearance that it is stronger than it actually is. Once you take the blade out and can look at the face of a well used frame lock you can easily see just how small a surface area actually contacts the blade. This alone is a big part of the wear issue.

Again with this lock type, many think that the lock is so big and impressive (sounding a bit like Dr. Ruth here I guess. ) it must be good. This is so deceptive. Many of these massive locks don't touch the blade at all for over 3/4" of their total mass when you really look them over. If you hold it up to sunlight you can see when the blade is in contact with the lock the way it is in the open position that it only has a small amount of surface contact. The smaller the surface area of contact is on the blade the easier the blade can wear it down by biting into it under pressure.

If you ask me, this is one of the reasons Chris Reeves' knives last longer typically because he actually makes a concerted effort to improve the surface to surface contact and he also makes his lock relief cut outs x 2 and much thicker than most of the competition. I've measuered Strider and Emerson knives as thin as .032 at the lock relief while everywhere else was .125 thick. What this does is it allows the lock to remain rigid and unchanged under pressure all the way down the length of it forcing all that energy into that one small area of the cut out that is near paper thin, which allows the lock to give in even slightly but enough to allow the blade to wear into the lock even more from the lock face moving across it. Over time its going to take its toll no matter how good a pitch the makers give you about it. Trust me I fix them all the time on modified knives the manufacturers will no longer work on.

I've seen some Strider and Emerson knives that had no more than a 1/16" x 1/16" total contact area. How I know is from the marking from wear on the lock with the rest of the lock face being still factory finish unchanged from when it was bought. Since Strider changed his warranty to where he now charges for work on knives that have been modified or pimped I am on occasion seeing them in my shop from indenting and its because of the small surface contact area of the much harder blade on the much softer ti lock face plain and simple. When I asked Ernie and Mick about this in writing the response from Emerson was that this is the 'correct' way to make them so the blade doesn't rock. Strider didn't reply. I've found that many makers differ so varied and so often on the correct way to make this style of lock that a book could be written discussing all the arguments from one to the other. It is no wonder that this type lock is the most controversial of all made.

Bottom line is: Blades at around 60 Rc or harder will just beat up a much softer titanium lock somewhere in the 30s for hardness. 410 stainless or something that can be made even a bit harder than 45 Rc wears much better than any typical titanium lock but in the end the blade will still win out. Lockbacks, even the worst made ones, have so much more surface area contacting the blade in any typical folder that the lock itself has a lot of help from all around it to wear much better than even the best made frame lock. The fact that the lock on a lockback sits in the same place always and is not made to move side to side to increase wear eliminates the need for 'self adjust' like seen in an integral so this is mostly a non issue because due to being hardened steel on hardened steel they do wear quite well being two unmoving parts butted up to one another.

STR

My point is that I have noted over half of them having vertical blade play when I get them to work on. Most all of these are older used and carried folders by the time I see them. I've noted it on others as well. Lil Temp? I have only seen like two or three of them for clip mods. Can't say I really remember noting any movement but again if I'm swamped things that are small job repairs or mods come in and go out of here many times the same day so it isn't like I have them long. I think the compression has a lot of potential but so far to me its got two things going against it that bother me. One is it seems to catch the meaty fleshy party of my finger when I open and close it. The other is that its had some of the same issues of wear problems (at least in my own mind from what I've seen) that I see in frame and liner locks. Granted I used to think the integral locks of all types walked on water. The truth is they don't and no lock does.

Chris Reeve makes a great knife. His frame lock is in my opinion the best engineered highest tolerance folder of that type on the market. He'd cover it if it did develop blade play and I know this because I know people he has replaced locks for just for that reason. One of these a lock was replaced on was a large Sebbie pass around knife for the blade forums that developed play and excessive travel during the pass around. Bottom line is the Sebbie is a frame lock. If it is used heavy in the field it will eventually suffer the same wear issues associated with these integral locks of titanium. It is possible due to the better fit and finish that it will last longer before suffering this fate but based on my own tests of my own customs and others both custom and production I'd have to say that this lock type is not going to be immune from the effects of heavy usage regardless of the maker.


STR

STR has also stated that he has made knives with no lock cut out only to have it send back. This is due to the frame being to hard to unlock without the cutout, this also increases wear on the detent ball.

A relief cut also creates what can be called a controlled burn in a catastrophic failure. That if the lock should fail it fails at that point without the lockbar moving off the engagement area. This could be seen on a HD-7 floating around.

At the end of the day "all good, just different" buy what you like because your taste will differ and no one can force you to change your taste or thoughts.

LightGuy

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and sorry for the very off-topic post. The photos look great, what camera are you using? I have always liked the SNG, but seem to go for something else every time I have the cash.
 
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Ok, Ankerson here is my question for you. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link correct? I notice how thin the relief cut is for the lock on the Strider, its obviously even thinner than the CRK umn, in the pictures contained in this thread. Many here don't view the CRK umn as a hard use knife, yet both have lock side handles made from 6Al4v an alpha titanium, so should be same strength, so taking this to a logical conclusion the CRK has a stronger lock than the strider, as it is without question much thicker.

Ankerson, I value your insight and knowledge I own a 2 cold steel american law man's because of your reviews, explain to me if I'm wrong here but I just don't see a "hard use" knife having a relief cut that thin. I love titanium frame locks and all of the ones I have except 2 buck mayo tnts have relief cuts that are a at a minimum of 0.08 inches (just shy of a tenth of an inch) thick. I've even got a STR Heman titanium frame lock that has tenth of inch thick titanium handles and has no relief cut at all, none its a straight tenth of inch handle. I love it, want to talk about ROCK SOLID, I know what rock solid feels like and that puny little relief cut on that strider looks like a shop accident compared to some other titanium frame locks, I'd be pissed off if I ordered one of those and that thing showed up. It would go right back demanding an explanation as to why so much metal was unnecessarily removed for the relief cut.

I keep seeing all of these quotes like rock solid, bank vault, "hard use", man use a titanium frame lock that doesn't have a relief cut and call me to talk about ROCK SOLID.

Help me Ankerson, explain to me where I'm wrong?
Like Jim said, there aren't any hard data available, but as long as we're engaging in guesswork based on design and engineering principles, I shoud point out that cutout thickness isn't everything. In particular, you're missing one important difference between the framelocks of the SnG and the Umnumzaan (for example in the text that I've bolded above): the placement of the cutout. On the Strider (and, for that matter, the XM-18, ZT 030X, Kershaw Volt, and numerous customs), it's on the outside of the lockbar rather than the inside (as on CRKs). Since the point where the lock face engages the blade tang is on the same side, this results in a more direct transfer of stress down the lockbar, making the lock cutout less prone to buckling than if it it were on the other side. (Incidentally, I just compared my XM-18 to one of my SnGs, and there's no visually detectable difference between the thicknesses of the cutout.)

EDIT: As before, I thought folks might be interested in Mick's explanation in the Strider FAQ, which is basically identical to the one I just gave:

37. Why is the lockbar cutout on the outside of the Ti instead of the inside?

Per Mick Strider: "If you think about the geometry of the knife, and the lock in particular, you will notice that the line of the stress caused by the lock interacting with the blade runs in a (mostly straight) line from the back of the blade down the lock and into the ti side handle.

If the cut was on the inside, the stress would run down the lock bar until it reached the cut, then it would transfer over to the other side of the lockbar…and cause the bar to flex and pop off the blade, rather than transfer the energy down into the rest of the handle."
 
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Ankerson I hope you dont mind chipping in here with a few words from a man who is a maker himself and some comments he posted on locks.

STR on locks as I like to call it, specifically on the framelock:

Frame locks.

I like a lot of frame locks. Many more than I can mention in one post I'm sure. I like and use a Storm II by Kershaw quite often. I am also quite fond of the Groove and the S2 by CRKT for inexpensive choices.

For a more expensive smaller frame lock I like the Leeks and knives like the Spyderco Salsa ti frame locking compression lock which is another fine little folder if you can still find it.

All of these seemed to be very high quality nicer folders for the money when they were available to me and I used the tar out of them to test them learning that they can be trusted and that they are built quite well.

Higher cost frame lock folders, I like the large Sebenza best and consider it to be probably the best engineered folder of this style made followed by the Zero Tolerance 301 and 302 folder which I think are probably the two finest frame locks ever offered in a production model period although all of these are far larger than I'd ever carry I think. The Camillus CudaMaxx is another super built frame lock that has everything about it done right but again far larger than is practical for this knife user.

Axis locks. I really really like the HK 14200, 14205 and 14210 best of all that I've owned but also the Griptilians with the opening hole blades and the Doug Ritter RSK Griptilian is very nice. As far as a size and a balanced system that comes together to form a perfect folder it doesn't get much better than any of these in my opinion.

I like the Dodo and its really the only ball lock folder I've ever had that I kept. However the D'Allara is nice but a bit thick for my tastes overall really which is why I got rid of mine. The ball lock is a great design though and super strong when the ball engages as it should. I can say the same for the axis, arc, and Cold Steel's version the Ultra Lock. All of these are the best locks ever devised I think.

I have always liked the Para Military and the compression lock design for strength and reliability too and had three but never kept any of them. I'd love to see the Para in a lockback personally because I just love the blade. I just have not taken to the lock personally but its a very strong well thought out design that works also.

Actually if the Para Military and Military were offered by Spyderco in a .125 frame lock I'd have one of each because of how much I love the blades of both folders but the Millie again is far larger than I find practical for daily carry.

STR

Most of the wear on liner and frame locks is due to the difference in hardness between the lock and blade I think but it is also the relationship of how most are made. When you really study these locks only a very small amount of the bottom of the lock face is actually in contact with the blade considering the width and thickness of the lock. This mass of lock to behold gives the appearance that it is stronger than it actually is. Once you take the blade out and can look at the face of a well used frame lock you can easily see just how small a surface area actually contacts the blade. This alone is a big part of the wear issue.

Again with this lock type, many think that the lock is so big and impressive (sounding a bit like Dr. Ruth here I guess. ) it must be good. This is so deceptive. Many of these massive locks don't touch the blade at all for over 3/4" of their total mass when you really look them over. If you hold it up to sunlight you can see when the blade is in contact with the lock the way it is in the open position that it only has a small amount of surface contact. The smaller the surface area of contact is on the blade the easier the blade can wear it down by biting into it under pressure.

If you ask me, this is one of the reasons Chris Reeves' knives last longer typically because he actually makes a concerted effort to improve the surface to surface contact and he also makes his lock relief cut outs x 2 and much thicker than most of the competition. I've measuered Strider and Emerson knives as thin as .032 at the lock relief while everywhere else was .125 thick. What this does is it allows the lock to remain rigid and unchanged under pressure all the way down the length of it forcing all that energy into that one small area of the cut out that is near paper thin, which allows the lock to give in even slightly but enough to allow the blade to wear into the lock even more from the lock face moving across it. Over time its going to take its toll no matter how good a pitch the makers give you about it. Trust me I fix them all the time on modified knives the manufacturers will no longer work on.

I've seen some Strider and Emerson knives that had no more than a 1/16" x 1/16" total contact area. How I know is from the marking from wear on the lock with the rest of the lock face being still factory finish unchanged from when it was bought. Since Strider changed his warranty to where he now charges for work on knives that have been modified or pimped I am on occasion seeing them in my shop from indenting and its because of the small surface contact area of the much harder blade on the much softer ti lock face plain and simple. When I asked Ernie and Mick about this in writing the response from Emerson was that this is the 'correct' way to make them so the blade doesn't rock. Strider didn't reply. I've found that many makers differ so varied and so often on the correct way to make this style of lock that a book could be written discussing all the arguments from one to the other. It is no wonder that this type lock is the most controversial of all made.

Bottom line is: Blades at around 60 Rc or harder will just beat up a much softer titanium lock somewhere in the 30s for hardness. 410 stainless or something that can be made even a bit harder than 45 Rc wears much better than any typical titanium lock but in the end the blade will still win out. Lockbacks, even the worst made ones, have so much more surface area contacting the blade in any typical folder that the lock itself has a lot of help from all around it to wear much better than even the best made frame lock. The fact that the lock on a lockback sits in the same place always and is not made to move side to side to increase wear eliminates the need for 'self adjust' like seen in an integral so this is mostly a non issue because due to being hardened steel on hardened steel they do wear quite well being two unmoving parts butted up to one another.

STR

My point is that I have noted over half of them having vertical blade play when I get them to work on. Most all of these are older used and carried folders by the time I see them. I've noted it on others as well. Lil Temp? I have only seen like two or three of them for clip mods. Can't say I really remember noting any movement but again if I'm swamped things that are small job repairs or mods come in and go out of here many times the same day so it isn't like I have them long. I think the compression has a lot of potential but so far to me its got two things going against it that bother me. One is it seems to catch the meaty fleshy party of my finger when I open and close it. The other is that its had some of the same issues of wear problems (at least in my own mind from what I've seen) that I see in frame and liner locks. Granted I used to think the integral locks of all types walked on water. The truth is they don't and no lock does.

Chris Reeve makes a great knife. His frame lock is in my opinion the best engineered highest tolerance folder of that type on the market. He'd cover it if it did develop blade play and I know this because I know people he has replaced locks for just for that reason. One of these a lock was replaced on was a large Sebbie pass around knife for the blade forums that developed play and excessive travel during the pass around. Bottom line is the Sebbie is a frame lock. If it is used heavy in the field it will eventually suffer the same wear issues associated with these integral locks of titanium. It is possible due to the better fit and finish that it will last longer before suffering this fate but based on my own tests of my own customs and others both custom and production I'd have to say that this lock type is not going to be immune from the effects of heavy usage regardless of the maker.


STR

STR has also stated that he has made knives with no lock cut out only to have it send back. This is due to the frame being to hard to unlock without the cutout, this also increases wear on the detent ball.

At the end of the day "all good, just different" buy what you like because your taste will differ and no one can force you to change your taste or thoughts.

LightGuy

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and sorry for the very off-topic post. The photos look great, what camera are you using? I have always liked the SNG, but seem to go for something else every time I have the cash.


Already a book written here already so there isn't any need for me to add more to it and as STR said there could be books written in the subject of frame locks alone.

There are many different ideas of what a frame lock should be like and that's from the makers themselves.
 
Question: after reading all the info posted, is it possible to have a stronger lock then a properly designed Frame lock Hardened steel insert above the Titanium( Like LION STEEL) then also have the lock bar stopper that also locks the lock bar in place. Making it a virtual fixed blade? I think the blade would break long before there was a problem with the lock.

PS. All This talk of blade play and fixing it is one reason I Love small EDC Fixed blades Like Bob Dozier. It's a NON issue with those.On the other hand, Ti Frame locks are among the most beautiful folders and a marvel of knife engineering.

OP- I Love Your New SNG. Glad You dig it. I Love Mine too. Even Love the off center hand hammered logo stamp.

At the end of the day "all good, just different" buy what you like because your taste will differ and no one can force you to change your taste or thoughts.
 
....My Seb moved all the way across in 1 year and is now developing vertical BP.....

As for the ''shit vent'', Hinderer has one.....

Your Sebenza should not have moved in a year with proper use. I have a 15 year old large regular BG-42 Sebenza in my pocket that has not moved in years....

As for Rick Hinderer using a "shit vent." Your wrong, full tang lockup and here's the proof :)

[YouTube]iXN6Yuyv7hY[/YouTube]
 
Congrats on the SnG.:thumbup: It's one of those knives that shines when used hard.
 
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I agree with most of the OP's comments. I have owned or handled the CRK Mnandi, Small & Large Sebenzas, and Umnumzaan, as well as the Strider PT, SNG, SMF, and GB, plus a Hinderer XM-18. I sold my Strider SMF and PT and ended up buying back an SNG and another PT. I sold the Mnandi and Umnumzaan and stuck with two large Sebenzas and a small.

My point is that the Strider and Chris Reeve knives are both good. Just different.
 
LightGuy

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and sorry for the very off-topic post. The photos look great, what camera are you using? I have always liked the SNG, but seem to go for something else every time I have the cash.

Thanks. I'm using a Panasonic SZ7 point & shoot.

It's great to hear the reasoning behind the tang/ lockbar angled engagement, as well as the reason for the gap between the clip and scale. It's good to know they were deliberate decisions and not oversights.

In the end, the only actual issues with this knife are the lock bar stickiness which is easily fixable while I break it in, and the blade stamp. And actually, after hearing that the logo was hand stamped, it kind of appeals to me now. It makes a little more sense that it's not perfect like a machined logo would be, and gives it a nice human touch.. Also, to confirm what Ankerson said, it is very hard to see with the naked eye vs. The camera's macro mode.

Did I mention I love my SNG?? :D
 
@So-Lo

Randy, I'm just curious, your SnG is a DGG right? Is there any blade play at all?
 
Congrats on the Strider..Seems like every Strider knife has its own personality, unlike CRK..Im a big follower of both...F that strider up and I bet it still functions properly...CRK to pretty to F up! Again, congrats, awesome SnG!
 
Gentlemen, the main question we need to ask ourselves is: Will this knife pass the Spine Whack Test? ;)
 
http://www.emersonknives.com/ekKnifeAnatomy.php

It's how the Walker liner lock is suppose to be; what is STR talking about?

I am not one to talk on behalf of STR. I merely posted some of the things he has stated for reading purposes. Best would be for you to contact him and discuss the matter with him.

But for what its worth the angle of the lock face on the blade should be between 7.5-8.5 degrees or radius as seen on many liner locks. Less the 5 degrees the liner whould jam, 10degrees the liner would jump off (Terzula, B. 2000. Tactical Folding Knife).

So it is understandable that many of the same principles are applied to a framelock. For me the angle or radius of the lock blade interface is much more important for safe lockup. The other main concern is to have the "point of contact", as Emerson stated, to be as far as possible from the pivot to stop blade role from occurring. CRK, Hinderer, Strider, Galyean Pro, ZT and many other custom makers does this on their knives as well if one inspects their knives closely (can easily be seen on the photos posted in this thread) the engagement of the lock is similar to the illustration of Emerson (also found in Mr. Terzula's book), except the "point of contact" can vary in amount of contact (but never as much as to cause incorrect lock relationship as illustrated in your link).

There is no right or wrong way if the basic principles are applied. 3 points of contact, pivot, stop pin/stop studs, point of contact far enough to stop blade role. Makers play with this recipe in order to suite the knives design, materials and philosophy, but the basic ingredients are the same for any quality maker.

My discussions with STR he emphasised these points as well, he just plays with the recipe a bit.
 
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@So-Lo

Randy, I'm just curious, your SnG is a DGG right? Is there any blade play at all?

Sure does, not really "play" it's more like the G-10 flexes because it's so thin. I'll tell you, I have pried boards off pallets with it (had to fit a small pallet jack in a normal sized pallet, a bottom board was in the way and I was one the road with no other tools.) :eek: She will flex bit not give, don't really care for Strider... but they make one hell of a folder. :thumbup:
 
Like Jim said, there aren't any hard data available, but as long as we're engaging in guesswork based on design and engineering principles, I shoud point out that cutout thickness isn't everything. In particular, you're missing one important difference between the framelocks of the SnG and the Umnumzaan (for example in the text that I've bolded above): the placement of the cutout. On the Strider (and, for that matter, the XM-18, ZT 030X, Kershaw Volt, and numerous customs), it's on the outside of the lockbar rather than the inside (as on CRKs). Since the point where the lock face engages the blade tang is on the same side, this results in a more direct transfer of stress down the lockbar, making the lock cutout less prone to buckling than if it it were on the other side. (Incidentally, I just compared my XM-18 to one of my SnGs, and there's no visually detectable difference between the thicknesses of the cutout.)

EDIT: As before, I thought folks might be interested in Mick's explanation in the Strider FAQ, which is basically identical to the one I just gave:

Neuron, I did not miss the fact that the relief cuts are on different sides or facing different directions, I've talked to one custom knife maker who also repairs and modifies knives and was and or is a certified repair provider for several of the major knife companies. This man has done extensive testing and has been quoted in this thread. He says it does''t matter what side the relief cut is on or what side it faces. That goes ditto for two of my friends that are mechanical engineers who design tools for the oil and gas rigs that are designed to push and pull over 300,000, both said the same thing, does not matter. Arranging the relief cut to face one way or the other is not going to make a significant difference what is in their opinion is to make the relief cut thicker, combined with full on lock bar face and tang engagement and angle at which the tang is cut with both of them agreeing 10 degrees to 12 degrees would probably be optimal. 10 to 12 degrees allows good engagement while still preventing excessive lock bar travel thereby increasing durability and longevity.

Moreover the thing that emerson says about the "shit vent" I think is shit, because the frame locks I have that have held up and have locks that function properly after heavy field use the best, are the ones where the tang and lock bar have near 100% parallel engagement. To put this in a better perspective on top of my own experience with frame locks I choose to believe the repair man and maker who fixed more frame locks than he cares to think to about as opposed to the man trying to sell me a brand new he made, get my drift, I'm going to believe the mechanic over the salesman. Take four wheelers for instance, we go to a dealership that sales four different brands, I go to the shop and ask the mechanics which ones do they repair the least and why, in my opinion that is how you find out whats hype and whats not.

I've had and still have some expensive frame locks >$400.00 and beat the living crap out of couple of em, and what works for me is the ones that have the most tang and lock bar face contact plain and simple, the ones that have given me problems were the ones that had less. What works for you and others maybe different as usage varies.

My main and original point is that the relief cut is thin on a hard use knife, like others have posted here, its got a bull pivot, and the blade is X thick, the handles are thick G10 and titanium. Then you get to this little bitty thin sliver of a relief cut. The knife is only as strong as its weakest link, so why not make it thicker instead of making all kinds of excuses like, its on the opposite side the stress isn't as much, or etc. etc. etc., make the things thicker to be more consistent with the rest of the knife.

Yes it will be harder to open, just like that STR HEMAN (no relief cut at all) frame lock I've got, but knuckle up your sporting a "hard use" knife that's made for F$%$#$% up as others have stated here. These are high speed tools for hardcore low drag individuals and your thumb isn't strong enough to push open a thicker lock. Somethings not jiving here. Personally I think they make them thin because most of these knives go to people who don't really use them, they go to people who flick them all day in their office, or in a drawer, or safe, whatever. So they make em for the masses to close easily and the occasional person that does buy a $400.00+ tool to really use, well when it gets sloppy with blade play they'll fix it. As it is a whole lot cheaper to fix the exceptions as opposed to the rule whereby if they made the relief cut out thicker a lot of the flickers would send it back because its tough to close.

The knives look great and I'm sure there something to em as there a lot of people here who like them, and other brands such as ernest emerson, et al. My point is just what I've said all along make the relief cut thicker to be more consistent with the knife overall. Think that strider is tough now imagine that thing with a relief cut this is 0.10 or a tenth of inch thick, :eek: Now your cooking with peanut oil.
 
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Yes it will be harder to open, just like that STR HEMAN (no relief cut at all) frame lock I've got, but knuckle up your sporting a "hard use" knife that's made for F$%$#$% up as others have stated here. These are high speed tools for hardcore low drag individuals and your thumb isn't strong enough to push open a thicker lock. Somethings not jiving here. Personally I think they make them thin because most of these knives go to people who don't really use them, they go to people who flick them all day in their office, or in a drawer, or safe, whatever. So they make em for the masses to close easily and the occasional person that does buy a $400.00+ tool to really use, well when it gets sloppy with blade play they'll fix it. As it is a whole lot cheaper to fix the exceptions as opposed to the rule whereby if they made the relief cut out thicker a lot of the flickers would send it back because its tough to close.

The knives look great and I'm sure there something to em as there a lot of people here who like them, and other brands such as ernest emerson, et al. My point is just what I've said all along make the relief cut thicker to be more consistent with the knife overall. Think that strider is tough now imagine that thing with a relief cut this is 0.10 or a tenth of inch thick, :eek: Now your cooking with peanut oil.
Mike, I use my knives hard too and completely agree about preferring a thicker relief cut on Striders and pretty much any other knife (including the CRK Umnumzaan, for that matter). In other words, I'd be more than willing to trade quite a bit of ease of opening for a thicker cutout. :thumbup:

I do think it's a bit unfair to say that Emerson, Strider, et al. are simply salesmen: unlike the salesmen at that four-wheeler dealership, for example, they (and their companies) make the knives, have to service them under lifetime warranties, and so forth. So unlike the salesman, their goal isn't simply to get you out the door with a product, get their commission, and go home. If the salesmen also had to repair products that wear, break , and so forth (as these guys do under their warranties), I bet there'd be a lot more honest salesmen out there! ;) Put slightly differently, knife manufacturers seem to wear both the salesman and mechanic's hats, not just one. I do agree with what you said about the cutout size being a balancing act between strength and ease of opening -- unlike you and me, most people don't seem to be willing to say "screw ease of opening, just give me the beefiest lock you can make"!

I think that if there's one take-home lesson of this thread, it's that people who have made, repaired, and know a lot about frame/liner locks have different ideas about what an optimal design is in terms of lock face engagement, cutout placement, and so forth. Broadly speaking, Chris Reeve, STR, and others have one set of views, and folks like Ernie Emerson, Mick Strider, and so forth have another set of views. At the end of the day, as long as the maker is testing his product, responding to user feedback, and putting the knives together properly for whatever configuration he prefers, the end result will generally be a strong, durable knife.

P.S. Any chance you could post some pics of that STR He Man folder of yours? I have the feeling I'll want to get my hands on one of those. :D
 
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I think that if there's one take-home lesson of this thread, it's that people who have made, repaired, and know a lot about frame/liner locks have different ideas about what an optimal design is in terms of lock face engagement, cutout placement, and so forth. Broadly speaking, Chris Reeve, STR, and others have one set of views, and folks like Ernie Emerson, Mick Strider, and so forth have another set of views. At the end of the day, as long as the maker is testing his product, responding to user feedback, and putting the knives together properly for whatever configuration he prefers, the end result will generally be a strong, durable knife.


That's pretty much what I have been saying too all along, there will always be different opinions of what frame locks should be and how they are designed. :thumbup:
 
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