Strider & Spyderco....

[Boink]

Aww, screw it! Now I HAVE to go out and get a Manix. Thanks, youse two.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

There is no if, integrals are *far* less secure under torques and dynamic cutting than lockbacks, they are not even in the same league.

Ergonomics are also not a high point of Striders, Mick has even blatently stated this on the Strider forum. The handles are boxy and square.

This is just more of your Strider-bashing, Cliff, and it's getting VERY tired.

There is a BIG "if, Cliff. *Far* less secure implies regular failure. My SnG is not going to fail under any conditions my regular use of it will provide. The two lock types as produced by these two companies are overwhelmingly reliable. The last tiny gasp of reliability will be lost in the haze of any actual real-life conditions two specific knives and their owners might face.

You need to get a good dictionary definition of "ergonomics", too. It comes from the Greek for "work ruled", or as we say, purpose-driven.

er·go·nom·ics
n.
(used with a sing. verb) The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort. Also called biotechnology, human engineering, human factors engineering.
(used with a pl. verb) Design factors, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort: The ergonomics of the new office were felt to be optimal.

[Greek ergon, work; see werg- in Indo-European Roots + (eco)nomics.]

Mick was deliberately slighting the use of the term to refer only to soft, rounded edges. This is NOT "ergonomics". Strider handles are designed to provide a slip-proof hold in many different grips. They do so, therefore they are classically ergonomic.

 

[HKSIG45]

All you need is a pair of calipers, you can get these in any hardware store. There is more to cutting ability than blade stock, taper, blade width, edge thickness and angle, etc. . Not to mention that the Manix has a *much* more secure lock, much more ergonomic handle, same steel, and is only a fraction of the price of the SnG. Plus customer service is many times higher at Spyderco.

-Cliff

Here we go again..............

Does the word LIBEL mean anything to you Cliff?

Main Entry: 1li·bel
Pronunciation: 'lI-b&l
Function: noun
a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel

 

[yog]

though both are excellent imho, i would go with the strider because its a custom and is gonna have more attention to detail than a production, but both are great.

Funny you should say that.
The only lock I have had fail on me due to poor accuracy of manufacturing was my Strider SNG. To be fair though, Strider fell over themselves to put it right, and adjusted it so I now have total confidence in it.

If "more attention to detail" also covers fit and finish, then again the Strider comes in second place, by a long way. Then again Strider have said fit n' finish isn't their main priority, but performance is.

All that said, the Strider SNG is one of my all time favorite knives (behind a couple Spyderco's ), despite it being ugly as sin

 

[Esav Benyamin]

WE aren't fighting over Strider and Spyderco. The Manix is a great knife. So are its predecessors, the Chinook I and II. But we know who takes every opportunity to stir up the double-talk. (It's not libel. It's just his 'carefully considered' opinion.)

HKSIG45, I gotta say you sure did improve the atmosphere here with that picture!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

There is a BIG "if, Cliff. *Far* less secure implies regular failure.

No, that would only be true if they were used in such a manner to induce failure. A little reality check is in order here, the more expensive a knife gets the less likely it is to be seriously used. Yes there are some that take $1000 knives out and use them like opinels, but the vast majority of heavy use knives are actually really low end.

But, yes, that is where the viewpoint started. This is a known problem of liner locks which Joe has cited many causes of release even during mild cutting and it carried to integrals in general, Mick admitted it was specifically for the production version of the folder he designed for Buck which I personally saw fail readily, and refused to address if the issue was addressed with the customs.

It is simply a mechanical issue, you can twist a liner and integral and thus cause a shear force against the lock which can cause it to move and disengage, you can't do this with a lockback because it actually can't move sideways. That alone is enough to state that torque security is vastly higher for lockbacks.

Same as with white kuckling, this is a bane of liners and integrals to a lesser extend, it can't effect lock backs at all unless the grip puts direct pressure on the lock, but any normal grip can cause a release with liners simple because the hand always runs across the lock.

Even with regards to impacts and other dynamic work, liners and integrals have no where near the security, all that holds the lock in place is the spring tension and the friction, compare this to what holds a lock back in place. They are two radically different standards.

Yes, Mick specifically stated the designs ignore comfort and are meant to maximize security, and that extended use benefits the use of gloves, this by the defination you listed means they are not designed to be ergonomic. Note in general these two handle criteria are used on knives independently, the Reeves checkered grip for example is very secure, but very abrasive to most and thus rarely called ergonomic.

The other thing which stands out is that at best you are arguing that the Strider can approach the performance of the Spyderco Manix, given the relative price points this isn't really an acceptable standard now is it.

-Cliff

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

I'm really having a hard time imagining a situation where extreme torque application and/or "white knuckling" to the point of liner or integral disengagement would occur. Of course I'm taking for granted that the user has some common sense.

 

[STR]

I have to agree. Anyone finding themself in a situation like that would more than likely have forwarning because of job description or past experience that it could be a possibility and in that case they'd have a fixed blade on them for that kind of 'white knuckling' task that could come up.
It makes little sense to me to rely on a folder for that kind of stress except in the rarest of circumstances. Ship wreck, trying to survive after a castrophe or some other such thing maybe.

 

[thombrogan]

It makes little sense to me to rely on a folder for that kind of stress except in the rarest of circumstances. Ship wreck, trying to survive after a castrophe or some other such thing maybe.

That's why you should always carry a Howling Rat or EB-LT in a pocket or inside-waistband sheath.

Seriously, though, folders can be built to withstand lots of stressors. With knives like the Strider AR and the Spyderco Chinook and Manix, it's odd to relegate the strength and reliability of folders to old-fashioned electrician's knives and Opinels. We all know people who are completely abusive heathens to their unlined FRN-handled 'beaters', so it's presumable that folders with stronger materials (steel or titanium liners; steel, G-10, micarta, or titanium scales) can be made to withstand more force without failing.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I'm really having a hard time imagining a situation where extreme torque application and/or "white knuckling" to the point of liner or integral disengagement would occur. Of course I'm taking for granted that the user has some common sense.

I have to agree. Anyone finding themself in a situation like that would more than likely have forwarning because of job description or past experience that it could be a possibility and in that case they'd have a fixed blade on them for that kind of 'white knuckling' task that could come up.

Guys,

One of the big selling points is that Striders are meant for very hard use. Look at the posts comparing Striders to hummers, implying that lack of finish is more than justified by ability to handle hard use. Torquing or white knuckling can happen in many situations, from defensive use to just getting the blade stuck into the cutting material and having to torque it out hard. Since it's so common to hear comments about how Striders, despite lack of refineness in finish, are so insanely strong and can handle extremely tough jobs, I think Cliff is more than justified to bring up the kinds of stresses the knife might see in defensive or hard utility use. I have a hard time believing the Strider guys would agree with you that the heavy torquing and white knuckling that more than likely would happen in defensive use are not meant to be handled by Strider folders.

I'm not, at this time, claiming that Striders are or are not particularly susceptible to this, more than any other liner lock or framelock. Just saying that Striders fans can't, on the one hand, constantly claim that Striders are tougher than everything else, and on the other hand, declare "out of bounds" useages that many other folders can handle fine.

Joe

 

[Walking Man]

I'm really having a hard time imagining a situation where extreme torque application and/or "white knuckling" to the point of liner or integral disengagement would occur. Of course I'm taking for granted that the user has some common sense.

.
Marcelo, and others, I am NOT a heavy liner lock user, but I have induced this white knuckling effect more than once while using liner locks. Of course, this maybe a function of design, but still, it happens, especially when twisting the knife a little.

 

[USAFSP]

I have got to get myself a Manix. I held one and love it, but it will never replace my SNG. To clear up a few things though. A Strider SNG is not a custom. There are ones that can be had as customs, but the ones you get from a Strider dealer is not a custom unless it is marked with either makers name. Either M Strider, MSC, or Dwyer. Second, there are not two blade stops, or thumb lug stops on an SNG. There looks like there are, but the thumb stud only contacts the Ti side. This was explained by Mick Strider himself on another site. I looked at mine and that is true. You almost don't notice it unless you really look for it. I think both knives are going to be strong, but what do you plan on doing with the knife anyway? Are we talking about tough chores? Well, either knife will handle that. The stats that either company test thier knives by are astronomical. I don't think I could exert that much pressure if I tried. Simply put, the Spyderco is an awesome knife that is affordable, and has a cool design. The Strider is an awesome knife that isn't as affordable, but gets a little more attention during the manufacturing process because less are made at a time. I would personnaly start with the Manix, and then save up for the SNG. This way you can have both and your question wont matter anymore.

 

[STR]

I understand the comments and I appreciate what the folder can and cannot do. In truth though, use my son for example. He was in Iraq for 14 months. He had a primary weapon (M-16) and a secondary one. (Sig Sauer 40 Cal Pistol)
On his belt clip over the shoulder was his fixed blade. (Cold Steel Recon Scout) And on his right pocket his folder. (could have been anything because of all the free ones he got repeatedly from the likes of Ken Onion, A.G. Russell and others while there. I suspect it was his Kershaw Blackout most of the time on his belt for daily personal carry though.)

I agree you want a tough folder but in the extreme white knuckling situation with a knife what do you think a soldier is going to grab first? Isn't that the scenario most often painted by Emerson and Strider and others? A soldier with his Strider in his hand? That is all I was saying. If it gets down to the knives it seems to me that the folder would only be used for the lighter tasks in most military situations or cases and would simply be a back up for the fixed blade. Yes you want a good folder but how good of a knife is really needed in the majority of situations? Very subjective issue I know. But it seems to me that if a folder was that tough and that reliable and the user had his choice between his fixed blade and the folder that the moment of confusion when he is trying to decide which one he wants could get him killed. In my mind the folder is the secondary back up in this situation and that is what I was referring to.

I think that is why most of the guys in my son's unit carried knives like the Kershaw Blackout and other similar knives with nothing but praise for them later when they got home. They didn't need anything stronger than that type of folder as a back up knife the whole time they were there. That doesn't mean that some of them didn't fail or get busted up either. I'm sure they did. Not that there weren't any Striders in his unit. There were I'm sure and there were most likely Emersons and BenchMades, Spydercos and others but the majority of the guys could not afford the price tag of a knife like a Strider to begin with. Strider, and many of the Emersons, and Busse knives are simply too pricey for the average soldier. Believe me I'd love to see it set up so the Government provided our soldiers with the best but they don't.

On the issue of a unique situation where a folder is all you have. I can't think of any but if that were the case then I guess you would be hard pressed to find a better knife than a Strider or Emerson, maybe a custom from one of the better makers like a Sebenza in Olive drab with some added heft or some other such knife like that.

 

[USAFSP]

Well, that is all very true. A Strider folder is not a weapon. Even the Strider guys have said that. Of course it could be used as one, but that is what firearms are for. Most factory knives out there are fine for the tasks that a soldier does. I carried a Strider in the desert, but that doens't mean it performed any better than the Benchmades, and Kershaws there. To be honest, it is all in the marketing. A high quality Emerson, Strider, Benchmade, or Spyderco will probably all perform the same in normal feild conditions. It is just the truth. I just feel more comfortable with my Strider. I think it is just what I was meant to own. Some will feel the same about the Manix.

 

[Garlic]

cliff's input here is the most logical. there's nothing in this thread that has refuted any of his points.

as per the original question of which lock is stronger, i don't see the big mystery in how framelocks are more or less thick linerlocks without an outer scale preventing potential disengagement from twisting. not to say that the scenario is a real threat for most users, or that framelocks are a bad choice, but hey, this is what the original poster is asking: which lock is ultimately less likely to disengage? answer: the lockback, especially the spydie lockback.

if you must get one, go with the manix. hell, for the exorbitant price of a strider, get 3 manixes for each of your next 3 lifetimes.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

As for what it takes to disengage a lock, this isn't chin ups or similar, when I broke the Buck/Strider I was just twisting with my wrist, nothing near a serious exertion. People have disengaged liners cutting weeds, cardboard, etc. .

And if you seriously want to limit the use of a knife to not applying serious force or doing anything dynamic where multiple loads come in from different angles, then why are you using such a knife.

The only reason that you carry something with a lock like the Manix is so you can do more stresful cutting, if you are never actually going to do that then in general you are better off with a nice multi-bladed slipjoint, multi-tool, or SAK.

I'm not, at this time, claiming that Striders are or are not particularly susceptible to this, more than any other liner lock or framelock.

Nor am I, it is a general problem, even the best liners I can seen are not what I would trust in heavy dynamic cutting. Even the Maxx I got recently, which locks up perfect is not something that I would trust for hard stabs, I have simply seen far too many liners move.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I can certainly agree that the liner lock and frame lock are inferior in strength to a good lock back. I have had both fail on me though. As I recall from my earlier years when the liner lock was first invented it was toted primarily as a 'gents folder or gentlemans knife', and not a tactical folder. Back then no one had heard of a tactical anything. I do think the frame lock is superior to the liner. That is a given but it still lags behind the lock back for superior performance under stress in my book and in my experience.

One of the strongest locks in my collection has to be my Spyderco Endura stainless steel folder. That thing is rock solid man. If the Manix is anywhere near that strong it is nothing to worry about at all in way of a good folder. The only thing I've seen that even compares to that solid of a lock up is that little Doug Ritter axis lock I had in my shop for a repair not long ago. That was also rock solid.

 

[rover]

As for what it takes to disengage a lock, this isn't chin ups or similar, when I broke the Buck/Strider I was just twisting with my wrist, nothing near a serious exertion. People have disengaged liners cutting weeds, cardboard, etc. .

Strider does not make the Buck/Strider model, Buck does. Have you ever tested an actual Strider folder? If so why don't you pesent your "findings" on the actual Strider?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Have you ever tested an actual Strider folder?

No, I asked Mick if they ones they make have the same problems which he was aware the production version had and which he thought it was acceptable behavior for the lock to disengage like it did, he never answered.

I also asked him if his knives had the same level of strength and security as the Spyderco Manix, he also refused to answer that either. Yeah that really gives me a lot of confidence in his products.

On the flip side I can ask Sal about his locks and get a pretty straightforward discussion of what they have done, what they want their knives to do, etc. .

For comparison to the Strider based responce to critism check out this post by Joe in the following thread :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336208

"For me, I'd buy the Manix, and it'd be an easy decision, based on the fact that I don't buy liner locks for hard use, and the Manix's lock is just awesome. However, even if I put that aside, I feel the round hole is a nice opening advantage. Also slightly thinner blade stock and full flat grind on the Manix means a higher-performing (but still strong) blade, a good combination. Lastly, I feel the Manix's blade shape is an overall more useful shape than the class drop-point of the SR."

Now does Joe get attacked by Eric or Jerry, have the Swamp Rat fans assemble, no. Note as well that he was just generalizing based on what he knows from other knives, he never actually used a Rat Trap, the stock issue was based on a mis-spec but other than that they are all solid points.

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

Screw the lot of ya. You just made me order a Manix last night. The wife is gonna' have my hide.