"Suck it up and just accept G&S"...thoughts?

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madcap_magician said:
This whole thing grinds my gears.

On the one hand: As usual, the government made a law without providing clear guidance on how to follow it or considering what the impact would be. I'm getting impacted, but I'm not entirely sure how, and that's infuriating.

On the other hand: People using F&F to buy or sell knives are explicitly violating PayPal TOS, which is both dangerous in terms of catching a PayPal ban or funds freeze and I think unethical because people doing so are defrauding PayPal (as much as I dislike them) of their payment for the use of their service. Nothing has changed in terms of taxation, only in tax reporting. I don't mind paying tax on net income received from sales, but I think it should be easy to figure out what that is, and it's not. Is it a hobby? Is it a sale of investments? Is is self-employment? The cost basis you can use for all those things is different. Why must it be so complicated?

But on the third hand: Using G&S to buy or sell knives is also dangerous because PayPal is capricious about their weapons policy, doesn't make it easy to understand exactly what you can and cannot buy and sell using their service, and enforces their policies erratically and inconsistently.

But on the fourth hand: Lots of people were using F&F before to dodge fees and in a small minority of cases also enhance their ability to scam, and now they're just doing the same thing for the same reason only now they're doing so self-righteously because they've got it in their heads that they're the ones who have been wronged.

And on the fifth hand: Scamming is just as easy in G&S, really.
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Whenever I send money via FF, I am charge a fee for the service. When I send money via GS, the receiver of funds is charged the fee. Seems like PayPal is getting their cut either way
 
stonproject said:
Whenever I send money via FF, I am charge a fee for the service. When I send money via GS, the receiver of funds is charged the fee. Seems like PayPal is getting their cut either way
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That's only if you're sending money via F&F using a credit card. That's not PayPal's cut, that's the credit card service fee PayPal is getting charged by your card issuer to process a credit card transaction. That service fee is built into the G&S fee, PayPal's cut is on top of that, hence the difference between the $0.49 +2.99% of the transaction cost for Goods and Services selling with standard credit/debit payment vs. the $0.49 + 2.9% transaction cost for sending a Friends and Family payment by credit card. PayPal lets you use a credit card to send F&F payments basically at their cost.

Even if that were not the case, it is not solely a matter of them getting their cut, their TOS explicitly prohibit requesting the use of F&F payments to pay for goods and services.
 
madcap_magician said:
This whole thing grinds my gears.

On the one hand: As usual, the government made a law without providing clear guidance on how to follow it or considering what the impact would be. I'm getting impacted, but I'm not entirely sure how, and that's infuriating.

On the other hand: People using F&F to buy or sell knives are explicitly violating PayPal TOS, which is both dangerous in terms of catching a PayPal ban or funds freeze and I think unethical because people doing so are defrauding PayPal (as much as I dislike them) of their payment for the use of their service. Nothing has changed in terms of taxation, only in tax reporting. I don't mind paying tax on net income received from sales, but I think it should be easy to figure out what that is, and it's not. Is it a hobby? Is it a sale of investments? Is is self-employment? The cost basis you can use for all those things is different. Why must it be so complicated?

But on the third hand: Using G&S to buy or sell knives is also dangerous because PayPal is capricious about their weapons policy, doesn't make it easy to understand exactly what you can and cannot buy and sell using their service, and enforces their policies erratically and inconsistently.

But on the fourth hand: Lots of people were using F&F before to dodge fees and in a small minority of cases also enhance their ability to scam, and now they're just doing the same thing for the same reason only now they're doing so self-righteously because they've got it in their heads that they're the ones who have been wronged.

And on the fifth hand: Scamming is just as easy in G&S, really.
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I searched through every one of these posts to see if someone addressed PERHAPS the most relevant (to forum members) detail. G&S is supposed to provide protections in the case of fraud. Will that be honored in the case of selling a knife? I seriously doubt it.
The last 2 years have seen a number of corporations like PayPal, GoFundMe, Delta, Salvation Army, NFL, NBA, and a number of others in addition to banks and Government in general put on my permanent black list. It was very satisfying explaining to my bank that I am withdrawing 400k, and closing out all of my business with them over their perverse "activism". Given the new Medicare policy put in place by Government with YOUR tax dollars, I no longer accept Medicare patients. I explained in detail what precipitated that decision and encouraged my patients to voice their dismay. Lets keep this in perspective. Look at what "government" has done to Social Security. I understand its more palatable to look at all of this in a piecemeal fashion, this is fundamentally unconstitutional. That seems to be a common theme in the last year. PayPal shares the same corporate philosophy as GoFundMe. You really want them involved in your financial affairs?
 
Thedude315 said:
I searched through every one of these posts to see if someone addressed PERHAPS the most relevant (to forum members) detail. G&S is supposed to provide protections in the case of fraud. Will that be honored in the case of selling a knife? I seriously doubt it.
The last 2 years have seen a number of corporations like PayPal, GoFundMe, Delta, Salvation Army, NFL, NBA, and a number of others in addition to banks and Government in general put on my permanent black list. It was very satisfying explaining to my bank that I am withdrawing 400k, and closing out all of my business with them over their perverse "activism". Given the new Medicare policy put in place by Government with YOUR tax dollars, I no longer accept Medicare patients. I explained in detail what precipitated that decision and encouraged my patients to voice their dismay. Lets keep this in perspective. Look at what "government" has done to Social Security. I understand its more palatable to look at all of this in a piecemeal fashion, this is fundamentally unconstitutional. That seems to be a common theme in the last year. PayPal shares the same corporate philosophy as GoFundMe. You really want them involved in your financial affairs?
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Yes there have been transactions on here where a shady seller didn't send a knife, or didn't sent the right knife or otherwise pulled a fast one and because the buy hare used PayPal G&S their payment was returned in full.

There are even more threads in here that predate this new tax regulation and the recent spat of hacked accounts where again a shady seller pulled a fast move but prior the the fast move they persuaded the buyer to use F&F because the seller had a good feedback history. Then they ripped the one or multiple buyers off, burnt their account here and then even came back and tried to do the same again.

I would need to have a very high real world trust of anyone to use PayPal to make a non G&S purchase. So high that it would probably be just as easy to stop by their house in person with cash.
 
Thedude315 said:
I searched through every one of these posts to see if someone addressed PERHAPS the most relevant (to forum members) detail. G&S is supposed to provide protections in the case of fraud. Will that be honored in the case of selling a knife? I seriously doubt it.
The last 2 years have seen a number of corporations like PayPal, GoFundMe, Delta, Salvation Army, NFL, NBA, and a number of others in addition to banks and Government in general put on my permanent black list. It was very satisfying explaining to my bank that I am withdrawing 400k, and closing out all of my business with them over their perverse "activism". Given the new Medicare policy put in place by Government with YOUR tax dollars, I no longer accept Medicare patients. I explained in detail what precipitated that decision and encouraged my patients to voice their dismay. Lets keep this in perspective. Look at what "government" has done to Social Security. I understand its more palatable to look at all of this in a piecemeal fashion, this is fundamentally unconstitutional. That seems to be a common theme in the last year. PayPal shares the same corporate philosophy as GoFundMe. You really want them involved in your financial affairs?
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Yes. Or no. Depending on their mood and who you talk to at PayPal when you make the claim. There is no blanket PayPal policy against buying or selling knives using their service, there is only a vague and never-clarified prohibition against using their service to buy or sell "certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law." PayPal retains discretion to not cover anything they deem not within their acceptable use policy. However, PayPal has never clarified to anyone what knives fall in or out of their acceptable use policy, and they are inconsistent on that point.

But that's not really the relevant point to the discussion in question which is about the tax implications of the 1099 reporting changes.
 
madcap_magician said:
That's only if you're sending money via F&F using a credit card. That's not PayPal's cut, that's the credit card service fee PayPal is getting charged by your card issuer to process a credit card transaction. That service fee is built into the G&S fee, PayPal's cut is on top of that, hence the difference between the $0.49 +2.99% of the transaction cost for Goods and Services selling with standard credit/debit payment vs. the $0.49 + 2.9% transaction cost for sending a Friends and Family payment by credit card. PayPal lets you use a credit card to send F&F payments basically at their cost.

Even if that were not the case, it is not solely a matter of them getting their cut, their TOS explicitly prohibit requesting the use of F&F payments to pay for goods and services.
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I'll stand corrected on the PayPal FF situation.

I think the TOS argument is BS though, their TOS say "no weapons" and they have banned knife makers for selling weapons in the past. An argument could be made using them for any knife sales at all could be a breach of TOS, even if they only selectively enforce this rule.
 
stonproject said:
I'll stand corrected on the PayPal FF situation.

I think the TOS argument is BS though, their TOS say "no weapons" and they have banned knife makers for selling weapons in the past. An argument could be made using them for any knife sales at all could be a breach of TOS, even if they only selectively enforce this rule.
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It is and it isn't. I think it's completely bogus that their policy is so vague and that they refuse to clarify it and therefore it's impossible to know for sure whether your knife sale will be covered or not. But it is not in the sense that they have the right to establish whatever policy they want for the use of their service.

Unfortunately there aren't really alternatives that work as well.
 
Sellers can choose to use only F&F for any reason they like. Doesn't change the fact I won't buy from them.

If enough buyers feel the same, sellers will either stop or reduce price to sell that way.
 
kreole said:
Sellers can choose to use only F&F for any reason they like. Doesn't change the fact I won't buy from them.

If enough buyers feel the same, sellers will either stop or reduce price to sell that way.
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Or..... You really didn't want that grail knife.

& That's Ok too! :D
 
Docscoot said:
It seems to me you entirely misunderstand the relevant tax implications and laws here. Nobody is saying the $300 is income in this case. You're right it has been debated to the ends of the earth, but I'm not sure you paid any attention.
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The IRS is trying to say it's income unless you have proof of every purchase and sale. If you can't show a loss, it's a profit.

How many times must an item be taxed? If a knife is bought and sold a dozen times, should it be taxed a dozen times? I think not...

Sure, buying and selling is going to be trickier, but each individual will have to decide for their selves...
 
I have gone to either using Venmo, or taking USPS money orders at a slight discount to get them sent Priority. Sure there is the assumption of risk that the buyer actually sent the MO, but vetting clears that up and they can just be cashed.

I don’t have receipts for most of my collection, so I can’t definitively prove that I am selling at a loss.
 
What this whole thing does for me is it limits the members I’ll buy from here. Unfortunately, I’ve passed on several knives listed at competitive prices due to the seller not being involved in community discussion more. Some folks are here to sell knives only, those are the ones I’m leery of. The members that have a vested interest in this place are the ones I’ll buy from. If a knife sales faster than the time it takes me to research the seller, then it wasn’t meant to be.
The majority of people here are good, honest folk that will work with members to have a good experience here. So, it doesn’t really matter what form of payment is preferred .
Any more, I’m not in a big hurry to buy when something pops up.
 
Reporting everything as a loss on the 1099 seems like a good way to get audited. It isn't any of their damn business what used items I sell, I may have made single digit dollars profit on 1 knife of probably 75 I have sold here. Almost all losses. Reporting that on a 1099, proving they were losses with reciepts I don't have, and potential audits? This is a family friendly section or I'd drop a couple choice words.

I am mind boggled by the people acting like this is meh, "just do the 1099" "no biggie". Wow.

You really don't understand the gravity of the over stepping, being done here. You do you, tell uncle sam your undwear size and who you sold your used draws to. 🙄


I'll ask for USPS MO from now on. Screw paypal. They have long since chose to go against other constitutionally protected items, and have chosen to take a rather unamerican stance on things I hold dear to me.
 
shinyedges said:
Reporting everything as a loss on the 1099 seems like a good way to get audited. It isn't any of their damn business what used items I sell, I may have made single digit dollars profit on 1 knife of probably 75 I have sold here. Almost all losses. Reporting that on a 1099, proving they were losses with reciepts I don't have, and potential audits? This is a family friendly section or I'd drop a couple choice words.

I am mind boggled by the people acting like this is meh, "just do the 1099" "no biggie". Wow.

You really don't understand the gravity of the over stepping, being done here. You do you, tell uncle sam your undwear size and who you sold your used draws to. 🙄


I'll ask for USPS MO from now on. Screw paypal. They have long since chose to go against other constitutionally protected items, and have chosen to take a rather unamerican stance on things I hold dear to me.
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I’m equally mine boggled by the slippery slope paranoia crowd who seems to simultaneously think our federal government is both the most incompetent as well as the most diabolically evil organization in history. They can’t really be both. My take is it’s a clumsy effort to close the tax gap, and it will have some seriously bad unintended consequences for this hobby among others. But it’s not the first horseman of the apocalypse. I personally will only deal with G&S with folks I don’t already have a history with. If I don’t know you then you won’t be getting a MO from me.
 
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