Suggestion about beginners' sharpening

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luste

Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Messages
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Hi, I just recently purchased a Victorinox Forschner 8" chef knife and I really like the upgrade from my old dull knives. I plan on adding more knives to my collection down the road. I have read some articles here and after about keeping a knife in tip top shape via using honing steel or diamond steel rod and using whetstones.

If all else fails (or due to lack of adequate suggestions in this thread :s), I plan on purchasing the following sequentially, each one bought some time after another, due to lack of a flexible budget: honing steel rod (there are various options on amazon, from $10-$50), a 400/1000 grit combination whetstone (preferably a japanese one like this one, then going up to 6000 grit whetstone from King as shown here. I shall buy a steel rod instead of diamond steel rod because I want the rod to do what its supposed to do only ie honing and I'll leave the sharpening, which I supposed is what the diamonds are for, to the whetstones I buy later on, by that time which I hope I can keep the blade edge free of nicks and the likes.

I need suggestions for:
  1. If I buy diamond rod and whetstones later on, how would that effect my blade edge over time compared to steel rod and whetsone over time?
  2. Suggestions for good steel or diamond steel rod which are great value for the money. Wusthof maybe?
  3. Should I buy 400/1000 first, then 6000? Or 1000/6000 only?
  4. Would you prefer stropping with leather over polishing with 6000+ whetstones? Alternatively, what is the benefit of using whetstones beyond 6000 ie 8000, 12000?
  5. Suggestions for the whetstones you recommend would be appreciated!
  6. Thank you for your patience! :)

If you can answer just one of these for me, that'd be great.
I chose to join this forum so I could get some great (and professional as well maybe) help guys!
Thank you.
 
400 grit is more for a damaged edge out very neglected edge. The 1/6k would probably suit you better at the moment. Although, the 400 would be nice for those older blades if you plan on restoring them. I personally don't use steels so the only opinion I have there is a quick touch up on a 6k is all you need. As for the strop/stone debate. Stay with the 6k then use strops after forming a clean edge on that. Strops are really a more affordable way of getting higher grits. I'm sure you'll get other responses with differing opinions, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 
Ok, something weird just happened: I just picked up "Emperor Steel Savoy" Stainless Steel Chef's knife for $1 for flea market. Can anyone tell me about the quality of this brand? It says "Household Japan" on the blade.
Can anyone tell me about the quality of this manufacturer?
 
I've seen lots of those, they are about worth what you paid for it.

A 1k and 6k stone set such as the Arashiyama stones would be a good start.
 
The edge seems really dull. So much so that I have no problem doing dangerous stuff with it :p
There does seem to be rush on some parts.
Could you link me to some articles on basics of sharpening knife edge? Polishing the edge ie redoing an old knife. That would be appreciated. Thanks
 
Better than reading is watching youtube videos...

Honestly I wouldn't even mess with a steel, I own a few but don't ever use them (or even keep them in with my sharpening stuff). I find a quartz-ceramis rod (harvested from a high pressure sodium light buld) to be great for what a steel is supposed to do. (I made a few people sharpeners oir of those quartz-ceramis rods as part of the pay it forward thread, I use a 10" one from a 1kw bulb and estimate its around 3000 grit.
 
A few reasons, 1) modern steel is so abrasive resistant a steel doesn't have much effect and takes forever and 2) I just don't like the way it works, its just not for me.

There is nothing a steel can do that the equipment I do use can't do better...
 
What are your thoughts on diamond steel?
Are they safe enough to be used regularly ie everytime I use my knife without taking off too much blade?
 
Your asking abot a regular steel but diamond? Or regular diamond benchstones?

My setup is-
6" DMT continous diamond surface benchstones in coarse (325), fine (600) and extra-fine (1200) and a fine 8" spyderco ceramis stone (2400) after that I strop. My most used pieces of equipment are the extra fine DMT and the strop (with green compound). I rerely need to use the fine of coarse and I usually skip the 2400 grip ceramic stone and go to the strop right from the fine DMT.

As far as benchstones go I prefer the diamond stones over the ceramic or whet/oil stones.
 
Regarding steeling: Steeling with a traditional smooth or grooved steel removes very little metal (practically none with a smooth). It's more like pushing the deformed blade back into place. Imagine the blade is made of clay and has folded over slightly in spots. The steel runs down the edge and smooths the bent over parts back up into place. This is burnishing or plastic deformation.

AFAIK, most steels are hardened to somewhere between 57 and 60, maybe 61 HRC. If your blade is a traditional German type like the one you mention in the original post, a steel is going to work as I described above and can be used to "true" the blade. If, on the other hand, your blade is 60 HRC or above, like many Japanese style knives, the knife is harder than the steel and will actually minutely cut into the steel. The steel won't work on those blades.

In that case you'd need a ceramic or diamond steel. I've been using a ceramic for several months now on a blade hardened to ~60.5 HRC, and I have to say I'm very impressed with it's ability to keep the edge going. It's still shaving hair and I use it almost exclusively as my kitchen knife of choice. Of course a ceramic steel does remove a bit of metal. A VERY little bit. It's probably between 1500 and 3000 grit, so it's not going to adversely effect the life of the blade at ALL.

The one I have is called The Big John Super Stick. It's available for less than $10. It's very big and sorta heavy (for a steel) but it works well. The "idahone" ceramics get rave reviews over at CKTG.

Diamond steels are something I haven't used. They seem like the next step up from ceramic. They are going to remove some metal for sure, and do some truing also. I don't think I need one in my rotation. As soon as I need real sharpening, I'll take the blade to the stones, then use the ceramic steel again for weeks or months until the blade is no longer as sharp as I like it.

Finally, regarding stones: Do you want to get Japanese style Water Stones? Or do you want a stone you can use dry, or with water, or with oil? I ask because Water Stones are wonderful, but they require some setup time, some cleanup, and some maintenance which oilstones mostly do not need.

Brian.
 
What is this HRC you mention?

Regarding stones, I would prefer an in between solution so that the performance and price are both of above average quality. I want to be able to sharpen my knives good, whilst not having to spend a fortune on the stones. And I will be sharpening some chisels in near future, with these stones, so something that can keep my chisels and kitchen knives in tip top shape without having to go bankrupt suddenly would be what I want. I do not own or intend on owning any other knife. No hunting, pocket, boot knife for me.
 
luste said:
What is this HRC you mention?

Regarding stones, I would prefer an in between solution so that the performance and price are both of above average quality. I want to be able to sharpen my knives good, whilst not having to spend a fortune on the stones. And I will be sharpening some chisels in near future, with these stones, so something that can keep my chisels and kitchen knives in tip top shape without having to go bankrupt suddenly would be what I want. I do not own or intend on owning any other knife. No hunting, pocket, boot knife for me.
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Norton combination India stone does a real good job on chisels and plane blades without dishing. Will work very well for your mid grade kitchen knives as well. A simple strop for finishing can be improvised by wrapping a sheet of paper around the same stone and dosing it with some Flexcut Gold stropping compound.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Norton combination India stone does a real good job on chisels and plane blades without dishing. Will work very well for your mid grade kitchen knives as well. A simple strop for finishing can be improvised by wrapping a sheet of paper around the same stone and dosing it with some Flexcut Gold stropping compound.
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Once again if you can tell me what an India stone is and how it differs from whetstone, that'd be great :/
I really need a nice little summary of different types of stones and their pros and cons! If someone can link me to the right article, that'd be appreciated.
 
luste said:
Once again if you can tell me what an India stone is and how it differs from whetstone, that'd be great :/
I really need a nice little summary of different types of stones and their pros and cons! If someone can link me to the right article, that'd be appreciated.
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That is a huge question. As far as an India stone goes, its made from Aluminum Oxide and a small amount of binders, fired into a block. One side is relatively coarse, the other is a good mid-range grit. An India stone is a whetstone. So is a silicon carbide stone (Crystalon). So is a Waterstone. To "whet" means to sharpen - that's a lot of ground to cover. Silicon Carbide stones break down faster under use than an India stone, but the abrasive cuts faster and there are other advantages to having the abrasive or binder break down as it goes - it constantly exposes fresh abrasive surface - much like a waterstone, and the action of a rolling loose abrasive is different from a fixed one. There are advantages to having the stone not break down - the only garbage on your stone is removed steel, and as the stone wears it tends to impart a finer finish.

As you grind the steel away, it does two things - beats up the abrasive its working against, and the carved away steel will load up the abrasive surface slowly reducing how well it works. Successful sharpening involves understanding how these factors might effect your actions, and how they effect your choice of stone. Various stones and other abrasive surfaces deal with this in a variety of ways.

Basically, when sharpening it isn't feasible to use a fine abrasive for all your work - it would take too long to get the job done. So one uses a rough abrasive for repairing an edge or larger amounts of steel removal, a mid range abrasive for refining it a bit so the edge can be pushed through material instead of just sawing at it (though it will still saw reasonably well), and a very fine abrasive to refine it further so it can push, chop, carve, shave with more ease (though will no longer saw very well).

How coarse or fine one might need to go depends on what they're doing, but in general this is how it works. As an example, a 240 grit waterstone will produce a very raw edge that can draw (saw) cut through a lot of tough material, but cannot push-cut through materials with any ease - the edge creates too much friction. A 1k waterstone will generally produce an edge that can draw well and push OK - the abrasive is large enough that it can repair small damage and grind a fresh cutting edge (the edge gets damaged with use and needs to be "re-sculpted" into a new cutting edge). The 6k is refined enough that the edge can now chop, shave, carve with more efficiency - it has fewer edge formations (teeth) to rip with, but also has less friction when pushed into a cut. This becomes a trade-off in the kitchen or the workbench. You might want a knife that has some coarse tooth to it in the kitchen, a chisel or a knife that is primarily used for chopping will be better served with a finer edge as there will be no "drawing" through/into the cut and it will pressure cut with greater efficiency.

The India stone is nice because its so tough. It works on a wide variety of steels and produces a nice edge. It will slow down on harder steels and wear resistant alloys, but in your case I don't think that's an issue. The edges you can get from the fine side are great for utility cutting, and with a small amount of stropping they work great for your finer work (or you could get a finer hone such as a Spyderco fine ceramic to finish it off). You wouldn't want to shave your face straight off an India stone, but with a bit of extra stropping you could do so if needed. The Flexcut on a single layer of paper over a fine stone surface will impart a very fine edge - close to what you will get from a finer stone, and very convenient.

The discussion explodes into a comparison of how "hard" or "soft" this stone feels vs another stone, what abrasive works best on what steel, what strop backing is ideal for such and so. I get the feeling you really aren't terribly interested in all that, and your steel selection isn't out of the ordinary. Under those circumstances, the India stone is ideal - many other choices will have trade-offs of price, aggressiveness, handling requirements (oil, water, special cleaning after use). That said I recommend using an India stone with mineral oil (right from the laxative shelf at the pharmacy if nothing finer is available). Still, a teaspoon of oil is not a huge bother or mess. Soapy water works too, but oil keeps the stone in the best shape over the long haul.

In all reality your local Ace or Home Depot sells a stone that can probably fulfill your requirements but the India stone is a lot nicer for a small amount of extra $ - above average quality.
 
Just wanted to add real quick. A whetstone is any stone used for sharpening. A water stone is a whetstone used with water and the same for an oil stone. Whet =/= wet.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! Just a few questions though: how coarse and how fine is the combination india stone? I read that the norton india stone is somewhere around 300/500 if I remember correctly. Uh is this fine enough to get a nice sharp knife? :-/ because everyone is suggesting 1k or 6k waterstone. Secondly, is an india stone better than water stone? Or are they just more convenient for a beginner like me because they dont wear out, dont require much prep and are easier to clean? Third, could I sharpen chisels on india stone? Lastly, what is this flexcut on a single paper you speak of? :-)
Thank you.
 
luste said:
how coarse and how fine is the combination india stone?
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Grit ratings get complicated because there are so many standards. Luckily Norton has charts that show their stones relative to other systems. Coarse India is about 130 to 140 grit ANSI (US standard for grit, like on sandpaper). Fine India is about 320 to 340 grit ANSI.

Uh is this fine enough to get a nice sharp knife?
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Yes and no. Yes you can apex a blade with the coarse side and refine it with the fine side, and it will produce a shaving edge *if* you do it right. It's not a very refined edge, but it's refined enough for plenty of cutting (like kitchen use). For me, I had a very hard time with fine India when I started. I'm not sure why but I couldn't get good results from it at all. Now that I have more experience, I've gone back to it and can get a good edge from it. Your experience may be different than mine.

Secondly, is an india stone better than water stone? Or are they just more convenient for a beginner like me because they dont wear out, dont require much prep and are easier to clean?
Click to expand...

India gets recommended a lot here because it cuts relatively quickly, is VERY inexpensive, *can* produce a serviceable edge, and yes is mostly maintenance free. Water stones can produce great results, and the finer ones can produce a more refined (polished) edge than fine India. They require setup time, some kind of water catching or cleanup, and some maintenance. Waterstones are a really neat system, they just have tradeoffs in convenience and maintenance.

Third, could I sharpen chisels on india stone? Lastly, what is this flexcut on a single paper you speak of? :-)
Thank you.
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Yes, you can do chisels on India. Or Crystolon. Or waterstones. Flexicut Gold is a buffing compound that Heavy Handed likes a lot. He is suggesting that you use it, applied to a piece of printer paper that you wrap around a dry stone. The stone is to hold it in place and give it a firm backing.

Brian.
 
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