Suggestion about beginners' sharpening

luste said:
Thanks for the detailed reply! Just a few questions though: how coarse and how fine is the combination india stone? I read that the norton india stone is somewhere around 300/500 if I remember correctly. Uh is this fine enough to get a nice sharp knife? :-/ because everyone is suggesting 1k or 6k waterstone. Secondly, is an india stone better than water stone? Or are they just more convenient for a beginner like me because they dont wear out, dont require much prep and are easier to clean? Third, could I sharpen chisels on india stone? Lastly, what is this flexcut on a single paper you speak of? :-)
Thank you.
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The combination India stone, once broken in will make an edge in the range of a 1k waterstone off the fine side, actually a bit better depending on the brand of waterstone you're comparing it to. The coarse side will be a bit less rough than a 220-240 grit waterstone. The fine side is more than enough for most edges uses though will need to be further refined for carving, chopping, and shaving. So in my philosophy of "Coarse/Medium/Fine" it takes care of coarse and medium. What makes the India stone so nice is that it requires a shorter learning curve - it is intrinsically more simple to use than a waterstone. Keep in mind, waterstones come in a vast range of hardness, binders, abrasives, and vary in how they break down and what steels they work best on. The abrasive action of a waterstone, which winds up being a mix between grinding and lapping in most cases, takes more hand's on to understand and control. Waterstones will also dish, requiring frequent lapping to restore flatness. This is especially evident when sharpening chisels and plane blades that really need a very flat surface for best results.

The India stone has none of these issues, and if used with a bit of oil will stay in nearly perfect condition forever. They are only at a loss when it comes to the newer high carbide alloys, and some of the very high RC (Rockwell Hardness) carbon steels, though many people have reported good results even on many of these metals if one is patient enough. You are stating this is and will probably never be an issue. Last time I sharpened the blade on my Jack plane, the edge would shave arm hair right off the India stone. A bit of stropping and it was making translucent curls from a warped board.
Is it better than a waterstone? not really. Is it worse? absolutely not. Just different. It has its limitations, but sounds like they are well within your tolerances.

As Brian mentioned, Flexcut Gold is a stropping/honing compound made by the Flexcut company - makers of wood carving knives and accessories. Their compound is high quality. Wrapping a sheet of paper around the coarse side of an India stone and rubbing with a thin layer of compound will allow you to get the "Fine" in the "Coarse/Medium/Fine" simply by stropping the edge. You could also pick up a Spyderco ceramic Fine hone and that will follow the India stone very well in series, but for most of your uses it won't be necessary - stropping on a hard surface with the Flexcut will give you a very fine edge capable of doing some clean woodwork and fine chopping in the kitchen.

There a million options for a beginner's sharpening set-up. This is a good choice IMHO, and there is no shortage of accomplished and even professional sharpening gurus that use this stone. So its a beginners stone that can stay with you for a long time.


Martin
 
Hmm pardon my ignorance but wouldn't a 1000/6000 water stone combination be better than the Norton combination india stone? :/ And which is easier to work with ie which one gives better results more easily? I do not mind having to prep and clean water stones. And would it be better to start learning knife sharpening on a water stone or an india stone?
 
luste said:
Hmm pardon my ignorance but wouldn't a 1000/6000 water stone combination be better than the Norton combination india stone? :/ And which is easier to work with ie which one gives better results more easily? I do not mind having to prep and clean water stones. And would it be better to start learning knife sharpening on a water stone or an india stone?
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In my opinion, the India stone will be easier to learn on. There are variables at play with any waterstone that are not there with an India stone or even the silicon carbide combination stones sold at your local hardware store. You will get other opinions to be sure, but this is mine - fleshed out pretty good in the above response. The waterstones are a good choice, but based on your needs I feel the India is a better choice.

In the link in my signature I sell a sharpening block that would also make a good choice for what you're doing. That said, I linked a handful of videos showing technique and theory that could be applied to many other types of stones/abrasives. Might be worth a look. The first video deals almost entirely with the block I sell (the Washboard), just skip to the second video if not interested. I also have a bunch of other sharpening videos under the name "Neuman2010".

Sit tight, there should be other responses/options in short order.

Martin
 
Welcome to the forum! All good advices from resident experts. :thumbup:

I'd suggesta bit more reading the stickies thread in this subforum, download and watch Jason (knifenut1013) video using the Norton India stone doing a kitchen knife (forgot the brand, I guess similar to your new Victorinox). His Youtube is MrEdgy81. Most important sticky is this:www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014274-What-is-sharpening-a-knife-about
And not sticky but very useful: www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/963298

Other option is to get Martin's (HeavyHanded) Washboard. It is a good learning tool (feedback from correct angle). He has tons of tips & insights that will be usefulfor any other sharpening method.

Personally, I maintain (after initial reprofile on various stones) the Victorinox kitchen knives on the Washboard + 3 layers of paper + black compound. My wife is happy with the result, balanced enough to do well on veggies and fish.

Edit to add: found it, Norton India Tuning Up a Henckel
[youtube]8VPCvd5hUVQ[/youtube]
 
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The waterstones are more efficient and will produce a finer and sharper edge. The Norton stones are capable and economical but waterstones take sharpening a bit further.

When it comes to learning how to sharpen its not so much the tools used as it is the practice you put into it.
 
Thanks a lot for such detailed insight, once again.

If I do decide to start off with a combination india stone, which manufacturer would you recommend? Norton? Or some other? Now, I wouldn't be using this stone any time soon as the edge is pretty good atm, so for the time being, should I use an honing rod to keep the blade edges aligned and keep them from bending too much? Which honing rod should I use for that purpose? Steel / diamond steel / ceramic rod? Additionally, when should I make the switch over to water stone if I start off with india stone?
 
If you have a stone you don't need a honing rod.
 
So after every time I use the knife, I should use the fine side of india stone to realign the edge? That sounds a bit more work than just touching it up with an honing rod to realign and straighten the edges...
 
luste said:
So after every time I use the knife, I should use the fine side of india stone to realign the edge? That sounds a bit more work than just touching it up with an honing rod to realign and straighten the edges...
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You shouldn't need to touch-up a knife after every use.

Are you in a home or professional setting? If professional I then understand the need for a honing rod but for home cooking the edge will last long enough that stone and strop maintenance will be fine.
 
knifenut1013 said:
You shouldn't need to touch-up a knife after every use.

Are you in a home or professional setting? If professional I then understand the need for a honing rod but for home cooking the edge will last long enough that stone and strop maintenance will be fine.
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Yup i'll be using my knives in home only and almost daily. So stone sharpening and leather honing, how frequently, on an average would I have to repeat, to keep my edge sharp and apexed? Could I use only the strop to hone my knives after a couple of uses instead of forming a new edge with the stone everytime? :-/
 
I only maintain my wife's knife every other week, granted she doesn't cook daily, and mostly veggies.

The washboard + paper + compound is enough to bring fresh edge to the Victorinox she's using. Note: this is after the edge is set by me (which is thinner than factory, and slightly convex due to free hand sharpening). IIRC, whe she cooks daily, I only need to touch up weekly.

I'd suggest get the Norton India, some mineral oil (or WD 40) and strop on newspaper over the fine India, you're good to go. Practice is the key. Once you get the hang of it, you'll enjoy it more and touching up less.
 
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The OP's best knife is a Victorinox. I have a couple. They are very functional, but the steel is soft & benefits from a regular hone. It is more likely to deform than chip. I use an old style steel & it works very well. 3 or 4 swipes a day is far more convenient than breaking out stones each week. Going finer than 1000 grit on these is a waste of time IMO.
 
mtangent said:
The OP's best knife is a Victorinox. I have a couple. They are very functional, but the steel is soft & benefits from a regular hone. It is more likely to deform than chip. I use an old style steel & it works very well. 3 or 4 swipes a day is far more convenient than breaking out stones each week. Going finer than 1000 grit on these is a waste of time IMO.
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For years I used a coarse grooved file and a relatively smooth one (fine ridges but well worn) to maintain my softer kitchen knives - is very effective. This is a simple method, but difficult to maintain over time from my experience. OP also wants to do some chisels and presumably other woodworking blades, might as well get comfortable with a stone of some sort.

In all honesty, he has a multitude of options - anything will work for the kitchen knives, the chisels bear a little more thought. The 1k/6k waterstone will put on a nice woodworking edge, but will require more fuss. I am not a fan of lapping my stones all the time and chisels/plane blades really benefit from a perfectly flat surface.
 
knifenut1013 said:
When it comes to learning how to sharpen its not so much the tools used as it is the practice you put into it.
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+1

This. In all the time spent thinking about what equipment would be ideal for sharpening your knives, you could have gotten lots of valuable practice time in. Pull the trigger, get the Norton Combo Stone or get the Arashiyama set. Then, the journey begins with putting steel to stone. It's fun! But you have to start. The equipment is not as important as you'd think.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
+1

This. In all the time spent thinking about what equipment would be ideal for sharpening your knives, you could have gotten lots of valuable practice time in. Pull the trigger, get the Norton Combo Stone or get the Arashiyama set. Then, the journey begins with putting steel to stone. It's fun! But you have to start. The equipment is not as important as you'd think.
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I agree with this in principle, but one can spend a lot of time not learning anything but frustration if they don't select their basic tools with a bit of care, and not know why. I still recall trying to clean up the factory bevels on a bunch of 154cm knives with an Arkansas stone...
 
mtangent said:
The OP's best knife is a Victorinox. I have a couple. They are very functional, but the steel is soft & benefits from a regular hone. It is more likely to deform than chip. I use an old style steel & it works very well. 3 or 4 swipes a day is far more convenient than breaking out stones each week. Going finer than 1000 grit on these is a waste of time IMO.
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In the realm of honing rod, will I be doing any harm to the steel, by shaving off little bits, if I use the fine or extra fine grit diamond steel rod by DMT or fine ceramic rods? And is there any significant difference between the different ceramic rods in the market? Ie: how would a $10 ceramic rod compare in PERFORMANCE to a $30+ ceramic rod?
 
Magnaminous_G said:
+1

This. In all the time spent thinking about what equipment would be ideal for sharpening your knives, you could have gotten lots of valuable practice time in. Pull the trigger, get the Norton Combo Stone or get the Arashiyama set. Then, the journey begins with putting steel to stone. It's fun! But you have to start. The equipment is not as important as you'd think.
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I agree with the whole do-it thought; but I just want to get my facts straights and watch as many videos about sharpening as I can, before I take the leap. So that I may know what I am doing, instead of just blindly doing something and expecting results.
After I've learned some basics, I'd know what I am doing and it will be a learning process for me. Or atleast, that's what I hope.
 
luste said:
In the realm of honing rod, will I be doing any harm to the steel, by shaving off little bits, if I use the fine or extra fine grit diamond steel rod by DMT or fine ceramic rods? And is there any significant difference between the different ceramic rods in the market? Ie: how would a $10 ceramic rod compare in PERFORMANCE to a $30+ ceramic rod?
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You will not do any harm by using the DMT ceramic rods instead of a traditional grooved steel. They all shave off tiny amounts.
There is a difference between ceramics. No doubt there are some cheap ones that are very good, but many won't be. Some are too soft, some aren't straight, that I have seen. There will be other faults. Buy a decent brand so you can trust your tools, especially as a learner.

luste said:
I agree with the whole do-it thought; but I just want to get my facts straights and watch as many videos about sharpening as I can, before I take the leap. So that I may know what I am doing, instead of just blindly doing something and expecting results.
After I've learned some basics, I'd know what I am doing and it will be a learning process for me. Or atleast, that's what I hope.
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You have the right attitude, & will succeed.

Heavy Handed's comment #34 is correct. You have a lot of options. Victorinox blades are easy to sharpen.
Planes & chisels are fussier. I find diamond stones remains flat. Flatness is important for these blades.
 
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Besides DMT, which other brand makes quality, yet affordable, honing rods?
Does a diamond steel rod shave off any more than a ceramic rod?
 
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