Suggestion about beginners' sharpening

luste said:
Besides DMT, which other brand makes quality, yet affordable, honing rods?
Does a diamond steel rod shave off any more than a ceramic rod?
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YES, a lot more. Even a 'fine' diamond will be a lot more aggressive than any ceramic rod. For kitchen knives in simple (& relatively soft) stainless, a coarse or fine diamond rod can leave a great working edge on a blade in just a handful of light passes (often less than 5 strokes). Given the choice, it would actually be my preference for knives like this, as simpler/softer stainless usually responds well to coarser edge finishes, but often lose some 'bite' when finished too high/fine.


David
 
So would you recommend me some good honing rods for my Forschner stainless steel chef knife please?
 
luste said:
So would you recommend me some good honing rods for my Forschner stainless steel chef knife please?
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If looking for a good diamond rod, I'd just go with the DMT. Their reputation is good; should be little to worry about. For knives like these, most any diamond rod can sharpen them. Only question with less expensive versions is how durable they'll be in the long run. EZE-Lap apparently makes one, and their rep is usually good. At the lower price point of theirs, it may be an imported product made 'less-expensively'. There's also a brand called 'Ultimate Edge' that's not too expensive, though I've no idea about the quality, good or bad.


David
 
I am reading some reviews on amazon that the DMT "fine" diamond rod isn't fine enough and is somewhat course...Should I just get a ceramic rod? >.>
 
Sometimes it comes down to personal preference. But you don't have enough experience to have found your own yet. Just be aware that reviewers may have a bias.
When watching reviews of diamond sharpeners, be aware that these take time to wear in(ceramics don't). To start with, diamonds seem coarser & don't do as good a job, due to a prominent layer of diamonds that eventually wear off. So if the reviewer is reviewing a new tool, the results will be imperfect. Better to watch a review of something that has been used for a few months, when it comes to diamond sharpeners.

In the end, you will need at least 2 sharpeners, one medium, one fine.
If you like the idea of a steel/round ceramic, make this the fine one. Then get a somewhat coarser bench stone.
 
luste said:
I am reading some reviews on amazon that the DMT "fine" diamond rod isn't fine enough and is somewhat course...Should I just get a ceramic rod? >.>
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I always take Amazon reviews with a grain of salt; usually very hard to figure out from what perspective they're coming (the reviewer's individual skills in sharpening, preferences and uses, etc).

'Coarse' or 'Fine' is a relative thing, depending on what they're compared to. A 'Fine' DMT hone can appear very coarse to one who's used to working with ceramics or even some other bench stones. Also if one is accustomed to polished or nearly-polished edges, the scratch pattern from a 'Fine' diamond hone will look pretty coarse by comparison. All that being said, the Fine DMT is spec'd at 600 grit (or 'mesh'), or 25 micron average particle size. It leaves a great working edge, at any rate; an edge which would excel at kitchen-type chores.

For the time being, if you're unsure where to start, you might just pick up a ceramic and see if it works for you. At some point down the road, if one of your knives gets pretty dull and needs re-bevelling, or if you think it could benefit from a thinner edge profile, that'd be a good time to try the diamond rod or similar-grit bench stone; ceramics will be very, very slow for these particular tasks. If you do try a diamond rod, you might find that you like the working edge left by it.


David
 
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I'm gonna throw out a random question: what is the view on the initial sharpening to create a new blade edge via wheel grinder? :)
 
luste said:
I'm gonna throw out a random question: what is the view on the initial sharpening to create a new blade edge via wheel grinder? :)
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Only suitable if it has been designed for sharpening. The standard bench grinder is a disaster. Google "tormek"
A coarse stone is less trouble.
 
Well, I just got my Norton combination water stone and a ceramic honing rod.
Question: which side is the coarse side and which one is the fine side? -_- It does not mention anywhere which side is which.
Also, is it normal for some steel to stay on the ceramic rod after use? I tried scrubbing it out with the green side of sponge but there was only so much that came out. Any idea how to clean this, if possible?
 
COarse side of the stone usually looks darker. If you look closely, you may notice the gaps between grains are larger. Drag your fingernail along the surface, the coarse will grate your nail more.

It is normal for steel to stay on the ceramic, it will not look new again. Clean it with warm soapy water & a plastic scouring pad from time to time. Not every time. Knife shops sell things called erasers, which apparently can clean the ceramic. I have never used one.
You will get a buildup of metal particals on the Norton stone too. It will need cleaning more frequently.

The ceramic should be used dry.
Many people lubricate the Norton stone during use, with oil, detergent, water, or possibly other things. You can use it dry, but it clogs quicker. I use a little water, it is easier to clean the swarf (metal particles) out afterwards.
 
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luste said:
Well, I just got my Norton combination water stone and a ceramic honing rod.
Question: which side is the coarse side and which one is the fine side? -_- It does not mention anywhere which side is which.
Also, is it normal for some steel to stay on the ceramic rod after use? I tried scrubbing it out with the green side of sponge but there was only so much that came out. Any idea how to clean this, if possible?
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Use only water on a waterstone! Give these stones a good soak for about 10-15 minutes. If you have a Norton combination waterstone, the color scheme Norton uses is
Grey for 220
Tan for 1000
White for 4000
Yellow for 8000

The 220 is very soft, sheds grit at an alarming rate. Try to move around the stone as much as possible to distribute wear.
The 1000 is somewhat soft but grinds very quickly, leaves a fairly rough edge, great for a user.
The 4000 is also fairly fast for what it does, one can finish backhoning on it and leaves a great EDU edge, leaves a "frosted" finish.
The 8000 is also fairly fast for a polishing stone, leaves a very fine polish, not quite mirror but very close. Is a common stone for many straight razor sharpeners prior to stropping with compound.

Depending on the grade of ceramic rod, you might be better off finishing with some backhoning on one of your stones and strop with plain newspaper. It will only be a step up from the 1000 grit waterstone, the 4000 will likely be nicer to finish with than the ceramic hone unless it is very fine. Is common for ceramic to load up, many recommend Barkeeper's Friend cleaner to restore them.
 
mtangent said:
Sorry, didn't notice you had written "waterstone."
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It might not be one of their waterstones. Norton labels theirs on the side pretty clearly (220,1000,4000,8000), their India and Crystalon stones are unmarked...

Need more info.
 
I can't believe I made that mistake.
I am so sorry, but I meant "combination India stone" not water stone.
It has a red and grey sides. To me, red side seems the more coarse one after running my nail on it, also the grey side is thinner than the red side. That's another indication that the red side is the coarse one?

If metal builds up on the ceramic rod, does it affect its performance ie does it affect its honing capability? If so, what's the best way to restore the ceramic? Eraser?

And how should I clean my norton combination India stone after use? Warm water, soap and a nylon brush? Or is there a professional approach to this that I am not aware of?
Lastly, @heavyhanded: should I wrap paper over the coarse or over the fine side of the india stone to strop the edge? Should it be a single sheet or many sheets? I remember you mentioning "flexcut gold" to use on top of the paper. Is that a necessary thing?
 
luste said:
I can't believe I made that mistake.
I am so sorry, but I meant "combination India stone" not water stone.
It has a red and grey sides. To me, red side seems the more coarse one after running my nail on it, also the grey side is thinner than the red side. That's another indication that the red side is the coarse one?

If metal builds up on the ceramic rod, does it affect its performance ie does it affect its honing capability? If so, what's the best way to restore the ceramic? Eraser?

And how should I clean my norton combination India stone after use? Warm water, soap and a nylon brush? Or is there a professional approach to this that I am not aware of?
Lastly, @heavyhanded: should I wrap paper over the coarse or over the fine side of the india stone to strop the edge? Should it be a single sheet or many sheets? I remember you mentioning "flexcut gold" to use on top of the paper. Is that a necessary thing?
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On the India stone there is a dull grey/brownish side, and a lighter colored adobe (red) side, the darker side is the coarse one. It might take a bit of use to break it in, but will be apparent very quickly which side is which once the fine side settles down and the dark, coarse side breaks in. They have the factory surface finish (somewhat glazed) which will give way to the stone's character soon enough with use. I remember the coarse side on my India stone being smooth to the touch, but with a bit of grinding will open up some. I highly recommend using oil on that stone, enough that there is a wet film on the stone if not an outright puddle. Simple mineral oil from the pharmacy will work fine - might be a touch thick to start but with a bit of grinding the viscosity will drop right off. Will need a couple of teaspoons per session at first but will taper off to one or so once the stone becomes fully saturated. If you use it dry it will eventually load up or glaze and require heavy duty cleaning or lapping with a loose grit to restore it. I use mine with oil and its as clean as the day I bought it only smoother and has a nice velvety feel to it. I have an older one that I boiled all the factory oil from and used with soapy water - its not as nice a stone now. Though still serviceable it gets discolored more easily and benefits from periodic lapping.

Wrap the paper over the coarse side of the stone for best results. Flexcut Gold is an abrasive compound formulated for wood carving - makes a real nice high polish finish for a utility knife and can be found at many woodworking shops. Maybe a touch fine for EDU but maybe not depending on the need. You can strop on plain paper right off the fine side of an India stone and get a great user's edge (also a good edge to master when learning how to sharpen - will reveal any latent burrs and really make the edge pop). Rubbing some compound on the paper and stropping on that will take it up quite a bit - be careful not to elevate the spine as you go - let the compound do its job. You can always finish on plain paper for a final touch - works well at any level of refinement.

Any metal build up on any grinding surface will effect performance. I do not use ceramics very often, but the Barkeeper's Friend cleanser has been recommended so many times I feel comfortable endorsing it.

Good choice on the initial stone, time to grind some steel!

Martin
 
[EDIT: I was still composing this when HH responded! :D Same basic info]

The darker side is the coarser side on the India stone. The metal buildup on the ceramic rod is glazing, and it will quickly stop your ceramic rod from working if it completely glazes up. When you feel it stop cutting effectively (or when it's very dark and "glazed" in appearance), use a scouring pad (the green kind) to rub it off. Some scouring powder like Ajax or Comet helps a lot, too.

You shouldn't need to clean the Norton Combo India stone regularly if you are using it correctly. I have never cleaned mine: first, saturate it with honing oil until it will not absorb any more oil. Then put a few more drops on top, just enough to make a shiny, thin sheen on top. That will keep your swarf from clogging your stone. Wipe that sheen/swarf off with a rag after use, and store the stone in an airtight container (I just use a gallon Ziplock bag) to keep it from drying out. Afterward, you should only need to add a few more drops on top to create a sheen again. Rinse, repeat.

The Norton India stone is a very durable stone with hard binders. It doesn't release a lot of abrasive and dishes very slowly. It shouldn't need flattening or real cleaning for a very, very long time... if used correctly.
 
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I used the scouring pad on the ceramic rod, but I dont know if what I see being left on the rod is some metal itself or just a sheen. But I do see silver marks left on my ceramic rod after thorough washing with warm water and cleaning with dish detergent and scouring pad... Will this hinder the honing ability of the ceramic rod?

How does Chromium Oxide compare to Flexcut gold? And forgive this simple question: the way to use these abrasives is to rub them on the paper and strop the edge with the edge trailing?

The oil used to clean cutting boards, can I use that same wood oil on this Norton stone? How about WD-40 or water? Can I use them without having to worry about anything?

As for cleaning the stone, is wiping sufficient at the end? Or should I wash it under warm water only, dry it and then store?
 
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luste said:
I used the scouring pad on the ceramic rod, but I dont know if what I see being left on the rod is some metal itself or just a sheen. But I do see silver marks left on my ceramic rod after thorough washing with warm water and cleaning with dish detergent and scouring pad... Will this hinder the honing ability of the ceramic rod?

How does Chromium Oxide compare to Flexcut gold? And forgive this simple question: the way to use these abrasives is to rub them on the paper and strop the edge with the edge trailing?

The oil used to clean cutting boards, can I use that same wood oil on this Norton stone? How about WD-40 or water? Can I use them without having to worry about anything?

As for cleaning the stone, is wiping sufficient at the end? Or should I wash it under warm water only, dry it and then store?
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Chromium Oxide is a bit finer than Flexcut Gold. The Flexcut is more aggressive and works better for touchups etc and the CrO is more for a final polishing. Keep in mind the Flexcut is still very fine - leaves nearly a mirror polish.

A light rubbing on the paper and then strop edge trailing. Apply more or use a fresh sheet when it loads up with swarf (black/grey streaks that indicate the abrasive is being swamped with metal).

Not sure about cutting board oil, but I imagine its mostly mineral oil anyway. Folks use WD 40, Windex, water, soapy water. I prefer oil (pharmacy or grocery store oil works fine) because it can actually float a lot of the stone and steel debris, rather than just keep it from being impacted into the stone. If using oil, wipe it off when finished. If its real dirty, leave a puddle of oil on the top for a few minutes and agitate it with a fingertip, then wipe it off. If you use other means, you'll want to wash it off and scrub it down with a stiff bristle brush. I cannot speak to WD40 or Windex as I've never tried either - both are recommended by knowledgeable folks. IMHO using only water or dry will slowly cause the stone to glaze and require lapping from time to time, no matter how much you scrub it between uses.
 
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