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Suggestion about beginners' sharpening
- Thread starter luste
- Start date
Don't use wood oil on your stone.
Many wood oils are designed to cure(set hard). This will ruin your stone.
Mineral oil would be safe, but many food safe wood oils contain Tung oil or Linseed oil, which would be horrible on a stone.
Your knives are all made of softish steel. They will lose the edge relatively quickly. The ceramic steel is to touch up the edge as you go, not to put a final polish on at the end of a long sharpening session. IMO, long sharpening sessions, finishing to 6000g, will not be very fruitful. The resultant edge will not last long enough. When you spend over $100 on a chef's knife, the harder blade steel makes this attitude viable. Victorinox's are simple low tech practical knives.
With my Victorinoxes, I give them a stone sharpen about twice a year. I steel them, 5-6 swipes per side, about once a week. No stropping. It is a good, quick, clean way to keep a softish knife sharp. You will find your ceramic steel will last for long time between cleans. Hang it in a convenient place, hone the knife with 1-2 swipes each time you use it, or weekly 5-6 swipes.
When you find the blade doesn't sharpen with the usual number of swipes, it is time to either clean the ceramic, or use the stone again.
I've not used India stones. I use Norton Silicon Carbide a lot. I have used a lot of liquids, & have settled on water as being the simplest thing that works.
Many wood oils are designed to cure(set hard). This will ruin your stone.
Mineral oil would be safe, but many food safe wood oils contain Tung oil or Linseed oil, which would be horrible on a stone.
Your knives are all made of softish steel. They will lose the edge relatively quickly. The ceramic steel is to touch up the edge as you go, not to put a final polish on at the end of a long sharpening session. IMO, long sharpening sessions, finishing to 6000g, will not be very fruitful. The resultant edge will not last long enough. When you spend over $100 on a chef's knife, the harder blade steel makes this attitude viable. Victorinox's are simple low tech practical knives.
With my Victorinoxes, I give them a stone sharpen about twice a year. I steel them, 5-6 swipes per side, about once a week. No stropping. It is a good, quick, clean way to keep a softish knife sharp. You will find your ceramic steel will last for long time between cleans. Hang it in a convenient place, hone the knife with 1-2 swipes each time you use it, or weekly 5-6 swipes.
When you find the blade doesn't sharpen with the usual number of swipes, it is time to either clean the ceramic, or use the stone again.
I've not used India stones. I use Norton Silicon Carbide a lot. I have used a lot of liquids, & have settled on water as being the simplest thing that works.
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Ok, so I finally did my first sharpening! Took me like an hour to get done >.> and by done I mean get over with the sequence of events I had planned in my mind.
I used wood oil at first, but soon I realized that either the stone was sucking up a lot of the oil or the oil was setting up on top of the grinding surface of the edge thereby removing oil with the grinding, leaving the stone surface dry pretty soon; I then brought out the WD-40 and it seemed to float on the stone surface longer than the wood oil. So I will most probably just use the WD-40 the next time. Because, I realized that I was not shedding much steel from the grinding when the surface was a bit dry as compared to when it had some oil / WD-40 on top, so as soon as I saw that the oil was almost all on the edges of the stone, I would dab a drop or two of the oil or a little bit of WD-40. Is that ok? How much puddle should be on the stone at all times? Is it absorbing the oil because I need to break in the stone?
Result: It did not turn out as sharp as my Victorinox, which is still pretty new and almost has the factory edge. It certainly doesn't push cut that well. And when I tested the edge by cutting a piece of paper, there were definitely some areas on the edge which caught up on the paper and did not cut clean. How do I finish these areas on the knife?
Since I didn't have the flexcut gold at the moment, I skipped the stropping part and just used the ceramic rod at the end; to get rid of the burr that might've been left? Can I do that? Or is stropping on paper / leather superior?
Thank you.
I used wood oil at first, but soon I realized that either the stone was sucking up a lot of the oil or the oil was setting up on top of the grinding surface of the edge thereby removing oil with the grinding, leaving the stone surface dry pretty soon; I then brought out the WD-40 and it seemed to float on the stone surface longer than the wood oil. So I will most probably just use the WD-40 the next time. Because, I realized that I was not shedding much steel from the grinding when the surface was a bit dry as compared to when it had some oil / WD-40 on top, so as soon as I saw that the oil was almost all on the edges of the stone, I would dab a drop or two of the oil or a little bit of WD-40. Is that ok? How much puddle should be on the stone at all times? Is it absorbing the oil because I need to break in the stone?
Result: It did not turn out as sharp as my Victorinox, which is still pretty new and almost has the factory edge. It certainly doesn't push cut that well. And when I tested the edge by cutting a piece of paper, there were definitely some areas on the edge which caught up on the paper and did not cut clean. How do I finish these areas on the knife?
Since I didn't have the flexcut gold at the moment, I skipped the stropping part and just used the ceramic rod at the end; to get rid of the burr that might've been left? Can I do that? Or is stropping on paper / leather superior?
Thank you.
Also, getting a burr on the first grind seemed impossible. Maybe because I didn't know how much pressure to apply on the edge 
But I don't regret spending almost an hour on this because I was constantly checking the burr, edge, tip and testing it by cutting a piece of paper
I HOPE it gets easier with time; I am going to use this knife as is and re do the edge next week to see if I make any improvement or not
But I don't regret spending almost an hour on this because I was constantly checking the burr, edge, tip and testing it by cutting a piece of paper
I HOPE it gets easier with time; I am going to use this knife as is and re do the edge next week to see if I make any improvement or not
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Don't do that!!
Seriously, I'm giving you a hard time in good humor. But ceramic rods will often create burrs or make them bigger. Combination of very hard abrasive, small contact area and highly-focused pressure is a burr-making machine. To minimize burrs on ceramics, pressure and angle control really need to be fine-tuned (pressure feather-light, and never go too high with the angle).
Even without compound, I think you'd still likely do better at burr cleanup with just a bare strop. You can often do a LOT of burr cleaning with stropping on heavy cardboard as well; sort of amazing how well that can work sometimes. At the very least, it surely wouldn't exacerbate the burr issue, as a ceramic likely would.
David
You probably didn't use the stone for long enough. It always surprises me how long a new knife takes to sharpen. The blunt patches where the paper caught may have been an indent in the edge, from uneven factory grinding. Stones are great for getting rid of these. If there are indents, when you bring up a burr, a burr will not form well on the indent. It will be smaller or non existant. A sign that you are not finished with the stone.
As far as "to get rid of the burr that might have been left": either there is a burr, or not. If I can't feel the burr, it's not there, either the knife is sharp & ready to go or it is totally blunt & in need of stoning. We are talking about practical maintenance, not the Olympics of sharpening.
Never press hard. Sometimes a simple magnifying glass will let you see a lot of what is happening. New cheap knives can take a lot of preparation.Also, getting a burr on the first grind seemed impossible. Maybe because I didn't know how much pressure to apply on the edge
But I don't regret spending almost an hour on this because I was constantly checking the burr, edge, tip and testing it by cutting a piece of paper
I HOPE it gets easier with time; I am going to use this knife as is and re do the edge next week to see if I make any improvement or not
It will get easier, you will learn each time. Practice your sharpening technique on a cheap knife, but don't expect it to work perfectly. There are many reasons people buy expensive knives, including that they can have a better quality edge.
Don't do that!!
Seriously, I'm giving you a hard time in good humor. But ceramic rods will often create burrs or make them bigger. Combination of very hard abrasive, small contact area and highly-focused pressure is a burr-making machine. To minimize burrs on ceramics, pressure and angle control really need to be fine-tuned (pressure feather-light, and never go too high with the angle).
Even without compound, I think you'd still likely do better at burr cleanup with just a bare strop. You can often do a LOT of burr cleaning with stropping on heavy cardboard as well; sort of amazing how well that can work sometimes. At the very least, it surely wouldn't exacerbate the burr issue, as a ceramic likely would.
David
You are getting different advice from different people, that's OK. we have all learned what works for us. You will learn what works for you, we are presenting different ideas.
Davids first paragraph here is totally true, yet it is what I do, I have learned to make it work. I finish with very light strokes on the steel. I have been doing it for many years, & I still sometimes push up a burr with a bad swipe. I just give it a couple more. I am also the kind of guy who rarely bothers with stropping.
You will find what suits you.
Even though I spent almost an hour on the knife, is it still not enough time? So instead of using pressure to shave the steel and create a burr, I could be using my fingers to keep the blade edge in place and let the stone do the work over time? No matter how much time it takes to create the new edge / burr? And the blunt patches are for my experimental knife, not my almost-new Victorinox one; the latter has great edge up until now.
2 questions:
Is it ok to remove the burr using a cork / piece of wood? Like, just give the blade edge one or two swipes through them?
What exactly am I looking at the edge for to know that I am done with one side of the stone? Burr formation / grinding pattern?
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On cheap cutlery it should take very little time to grind a new cutting edge. You need to study how the grind pattern is being created and advancing. The formation of a burr is proof positive that you've removed enough metal to make that fresh edge. Stop and observe often. When grinding keep your fingers on the blade right opposite where it should be contacting the stone, other hand holding the handle and controlling pitch. Use a Sharpie, apply some to the edge, grind for a few passes and stop to see where you're hitting - reapply as needed. Watch more videos -
MrEdgy is Knifenut's youtube tag - has many good videos including the one Chris linked to earlier in the thread. I have some videos under
Neuman2010
Practice practice - observe often.
That's almost what I had done. I don't know why it took me such a long time to create the new edge / feel the burr :/
But yes, you are right. I shall practice some more to find out...
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I'd say, "It depends..."
Some metal polishes may work, and some likely won't, depending on which abrasives they use. Metal polishes made primarily for use on copper (pots/pans) silver, brass, etc. will likely be too gentle (soft) for hardened knife steel, though may work a little bit with a lot of additional elbow grease. Other metal polishes like Flitz/Simichrome use aluminum oxide abrasive, which is much more capable on hardened steel, and can work much faster. Lacking any other compounds, I'd first try to pick up some of the Flitz or Simichrome paste. I've used Simichrome on strops before, and it can work pretty well. Others here have used Flitz with favorable results.
David
If you didn't get a burr, you didn't get to the apex. Sure ,an hour is plenty of time, but if it didn't happen, there is a reason, & working out why is how you learn. I mentioned I find a magnifying glass useful, many people use Sharpie, to see what the grind is doing. From a distance, the rest of us can only guess.
You will find those blunt patches on almost any production knife, when sharpening with a stone. Some sections of the blade sharpen slower than others to start with, due to imperfections in the factory grind. You will find them again 6 months later when you use the stone, because the most used section of the blade will wear down a fraction more. Honing with a steel doesn't change this, because it is too narrow. A steel simply puts an edge on the imperfection.
As for pressure, I interpreted your question as: if I don't get a burr, should I press harder? My answer is "no."
None of us know which knife you are sharpening, what angle you are sharpening, or anything much at all. If the knife has been ground obtusely, & you are sharpening acutely, it can take a while. If you are stopping to inpect the blade frequently, that will slow things down.
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WD40 is good, sure! Get the liquid kind, too, and completely saturate the stone first. Then use the spray to keep swarf floating. It sounds like your stone is still thirsty. Let it drink its fill before using. You don't want the surface to be dry. Don't wash afterward, just wipe the sheen/swarf off, and certainly don't clean it with water if using WD40.
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On polishing compound, autosol, MAAS worked for me. Others have used Mother Mag with some success. Harder steel (S30V for example) will need diamond/CBN paste.
Keep practicing, observe often
Keep practicing, observe often
Thank you for the recommendations. I might try the smallest size of Simichrome to see how it works for me
Can it only be applied on uncoated metal like the stainless steel of kitchen knives? Where else can it be used?
Thanks for your answer mtanger; I now believe that the problem may have been what you described ie not grinding the apex. Because the edge I produced was much wider than the edge that was already on it AND it was much wider than the edge on my Forschner. So I have, infact, been thinning the sides of the edge rather than grinding the edge. That combined with the fact that initially I had not kept my stone as wet as I would've liked to, MAY explain why it took me almost an hour to get one knife done.
Btw, how do you find out the hardness of the knife steel? Since I just purchased my first "expensive" chef knife, that, ironically, being the cheapest one available ie Victorinox Forschner 8" Chef knife, I would like to find out the hardness of the stainless steel used on this knife and also of the knives, high end ones, that I plan on purchasing down the road once I become fed up of this one Also, since I've purchased the Norton Combination INDIA stone to sharpen my knives, what sort of knives can this stone sharpen? I mean to ask this so that I may know that which of the knives that I might purchase in future may be sharpened by this stone and for which ones would I have to upgrade to better stones? Thanks
Can it only be applied on uncoated metal like the stainless steel of kitchen knives? Where else can it be used?
Thanks for your answer mtanger; I now believe that the problem may have been what you described ie not grinding the apex. Because the edge I produced was much wider than the edge that was already on it AND it was much wider than the edge on my Forschner. So I have, infact, been thinning the sides of the edge rather than grinding the edge. That combined with the fact that initially I had not kept my stone as wet as I would've liked to, MAY explain why it took me almost an hour to get one knife done.
Btw, how do you find out the hardness of the knife steel? Since I just purchased my first "expensive" chef knife, that, ironically, being the cheapest one available ie Victorinox Forschner 8" Chef knife, I would like to find out the hardness of the stainless steel used on this knife and also of the knives, high end ones, that I plan on purchasing down the road once I become fed up of this one
Also, since I've purchased the Norton Combination INDIA stone to sharpen my knives, what sort of knives can this stone sharpen? I mean to ask this so that I may know that which of the knives that I might purchase in future may be sharpened by this stone and for which ones would I have to upgrade to better stones? ThanksThe best way to find the hardness of a blade is ask the manufacturer. That is easy enough via the internet these days.
Probably someone already has done so, you could search BF & try to find out, or send an email to Victorinox.
I don't use India stones, but believe the are a bit softer than Silicon Carbide (the grey Norton substance). I believe the india will sharpen most knives, but will probably not fare well against steels containing Vanadium(eg. D2, 3V, S30V etc) or very hard steels like the expensive Japanese blades (super gold, ZDP189, Hitachi Blue). Others will give you a better answer. Any knife made of these steels will cost a lot more tan Victorinox.
Probably someone already has done so, you could search BF & try to find out, or send an email to Victorinox.
I don't use India stones, but believe the are a bit softer than Silicon Carbide (the grey Norton substance). I believe the india will sharpen most knives, but will probably not fare well against steels containing Vanadium(eg. D2, 3V, S30V etc) or very hard steels like the expensive Japanese blades (super gold, ZDP189, Hitachi Blue). Others will give you a better answer. Any knife made of these steels will cost a lot more tan Victorinox.
Thin is better for slicing, make sure you polish the roughness off this new bevel. Most factory blades come with way too obtuse a grind, & your first task will be doing what you just described: making a wider, more acute bevel via the stone. It takes time.
So the small / thin blade edge of the Victorinox, which I was being impressed with, is actually too obtuse an angle for an edge? Huh. Can you link me to some pictures or threads around this forum showing what most would consider an ideal width of the blade edge?
No, because it will vary with different purposes & different steels. If it impresses you, then it is working well for you.
Another factor is geometry away from the edge. My Vic's have good geometry for slicers: narrow blades with a shallow flat grind. They don't need a seriously acute edge to work well.
An edge grind can be too acute, & the edge won't be strong enough to last.
I suppose this & my last post were saying in part, the factory edge angle isn't neccesarily best, there is no need to try & emulate it. You can try different angles & see what works.
The cheap practice knife is to practice your technique. The edge you put on it may not last long. But a similar edge on the Vic may last well, through better steel.
If you have some king of edge, it will work, especially on a thin blade.
You may be surprised, when you start sharpening the Vic, That you can make the edge better than the factory did.
Another factor is geometry away from the edge. My Vic's have good geometry for slicers: narrow blades with a shallow flat grind. They don't need a seriously acute edge to work well.
An edge grind can be too acute, & the edge won't be strong enough to last.
I suppose this & my last post were saying in part, the factory edge angle isn't neccesarily best, there is no need to try & emulate it. You can try different angles & see what works.
The cheap practice knife is to practice your technique. The edge you put on it may not last long. But a similar edge on the Vic may last well, through better steel.
If you have some king of edge, it will work, especially on a thin blade.
You may be surprised, when you start sharpening the Vic, That you can make the edge better than the factory did.