Suggestions to speed up reprofile process

B

Bucketmouth

Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
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I'm lookin at getting the dmt 8inch continuous xxc and xc to go with my blue red and green stones but would the xxc be overkill or will it would it still take me 4 hours to knock a bevel down? I've been using my blue stone with the quarters method and have been getting some very consistent flat edges that are crazy sharp and now I'm addicted to it. However the blue stone took me around 5 hours through the course of 2 days to get a case lockback reprofiled and that makes me afraid to even touch the 940-1 or even think about s110.
Any suggestions?
 
Bucketmouth said:
I'm lookin at getting the dmt 8inch continuous xxc and xc to go with my blue red and green stones but would the xxc be overkill or will it would it still take me 4 hours to knock a bevel down? I've been using my blue stone with the quarters method and have been getting some very consistent flat edges that are crazy sharp and now I'm addicted to it. However the blue stone took me around 5 hours through the course of 2 days to get a case lockback reprofiled and that makes me afraid to even touch the 940-1 or even think about s110.
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

When you say "reprofile" you mean changing the edge angle, not re-grinding the entire blade face/primary grind? 4 hours is a long time to change edge angle, not so bad if changing the entire primary by hand.

Personally I prefer a vitreous stone like the coarse side of a silicon carbide stone for initial heavy grind work. I can press harder at first if needed and not damage the stone.

Most of it is consistency and managing a good pace. I also use a relatively short, scrubbing type of pass. I find I can go a lot faster overall and keep good angle control. Much of it is practice - accuracy first, speed second. A good exercise is sharpening an edge into the back of a few sawsall blades.
 
The coarsest DMT I use is the XC and it still takes a fair amount of time to reprofile the bevel on high wear resistance steel. I don't think the XXC is overkill. I may end up with one myself.
 
The XXC is a fantastic plate. Probably my favorite DMT. It grinds WAY faster than the DMT C, and it should; it's 120 micron, as opposed to 45 micron for the C. But it's still a hand tool; it works pretty fast, but on big jobs, there can still be a lot of effort expended.

When you get to jobs that you want to do faster than the XXC can do them, then you need to start looking at power tools like belt sanders. The WorkSharp Ken Onion is a good bit faster than the XXC. Though the WSKO is WAY slower than a real 1x42 or 1x30 belt sander. The choice of tool is all about your needs and desires.

Brian.
 
I have the X coarse continuous diamond and it works about the the same as a Norton coarse SiC stone. With the Norton I can apply pressure and which helps it work faster. And it has a lot of stone material so I can level it later. Both seem 'not fast' to knock down a shoulder on S30V or S60V. Still, the XX coarse you speak of is expensive and may only work a wee bit faster. I took a 18* edge on S30V to 15* using a Norton coarse SiC stone in one hour. I've since learned how to shorten this amount of time. Your call. DM
 
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I was meaning reprofiling the edge sorry about that. I have the work sharp ko with the bga but I don't get flat bevels like i do from a stone. Would the Norton sic stone make deeper scratches that are harder to remove with the C stone or would the Norton then the xc and then the c be a better route?
 
On most steels you should be able to go from the coarse SiC to the DMT C.

If that's too much you could always use the fine side of the SiC stone and on to the DMT C or even the DMT F.
 
Bucketmouth said:
I'm lookin at getting the dmt 8inch continuous xxc and xc to go with my blue red and green stones but would the xxc be overkill or will it would it still take me 4 hours to knock a bevel down? I've been using my blue stone with the quarters method and have been getting some very consistent flat edges that are crazy sharp and now I'm addicted to it. However the blue stone took me around 5 hours through the course of 2 days to get a case lockback reprofiled and that makes me afraid to even touch the 940-1 or even think about s110.
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

By the 'quarters method', what do you mean? Also, are you just taking edge-leading strokes, one pass at a time? The grinding method may be most of the issue, if it's taking 5 hours. Also, if your 'blue and red and green' hones are the DMT C/F/EF hones(?), what size are they? If they're smaller hones, like those used with the Aligner set, the hone size will also be a factor in the time to do the job. A bench-sized (8") DMT Coarse (325-mesh 'blue') shouldn't take more than perhaps an hour, or maybe a lot less, as used with a scrubbing stroke. It's what I use for similar jobs, usually getting them done in maybe 30-45 minutes' time.

Another factor may be clogging of the hone, which can really slow it down. Simple stainless steels like Case's can potentially clog a diamond hone pretty easily; especially if it's used dry. I like to use a little mineral oil on my diamond hones, to keep swarf from clinging to the grit and clogging it.

A back & forth scrubbing method with two hands, on a bench stone, can often cut the grinding time at least in half, if not down to 1/4 or so of the time taken using only one-stroke-at-a-time edge-leading passes. A back & forth scrubbing stroke, with a couple fingers immediately behind the bevel on the blade, and the other hand controlling the handle, is much faster and will also work well to create a nice, crisp & flat bevel.

With a Case lockback (I'm assuming 420HC 'Tru-Sharp' stainless), a lot of coarse stone options will work very quickly. SiC, diamond bench stones are good, and the diamond would obviously be best for steels like S110V. Another option that's VERY fast, is to use a coarse-grit grinding belt in AlOx/Zirconia/Ceramic grit, maybe ~120-grit or so, cut and affixed flat to a hard surface (board, bench/tabletop, etc). The length & width of the belt will provide a lot more grinding surface area, upon which long, sweeping passes of the blade over the abrasive will remove a lot of steel very fast.


David
 
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4 hours to set an edge bevel? On a new knife I make, I do one stroke per side at a time, establishing a NEW bevel, and this is done in less than 30 minutes with a Crystolon or DMT, regardless of steel.
 
The quarter thing is where you measure your blade and use to quarters to set up an angle you want your bevels at. I set my knife spine on the quarter stack and go to town. I do think my stones may be clogged easily because I noticed when I cleaned them it seemed to make more progress evident. I set the blade at 45 to the stone and with my off hand I put a few fingers on the blade and start making my way down the stone with back and forth motion while slowly making working my way to the belly and tip while lifting the blade handle a bit. I then check myself by setting the blade against the quarters to see if I deviated from the original angle and as of lately I have been extremely consistent. I would upload pictures but when I sign up for photobucket all I get is add's and stupid crap that keeps me from being able to to anything. I know a lot of you you can fix a bevel in no time flat but I think I may be afraid of ruining my stones pressing to hard so I basically let the blade skim across the surface. Oh and BTW the stones I have are the 6 inch colored dmt whetstones with the plastic base and box
 
Bucketmouth said:
The quarter thing is where you measure your blade and use to quarters to set up an angle you want your bevels at. I set my knife spine on the quarter stack and go to town. I do think my stones may be clogged easily because I noticed when I cleaned them it seemed to make more progress evident. I set the blade at 45 to the stone and with my off hand I put a few fingers on the blade and start making my way down the stone with back and forth motion while slowly making working my way to the belly and tip while lifting the blade handle a bit. I then check myself by setting the blade against the quarters to see if I deviated from the original angle and as of lately I have been extremely consistent. I would upload pictures but when I sign up for photobucket all I get is add's and stupid crap that keeps me from being able to to anything. I know a lot of you you can fix a bevel in no time flat but I think I may be afraid of ruining my stones pressing to hard so I basically let the blade skim across the surface. Oh and BTW the stones I have are the 6 inch colored dmt whetstones with the plastic base and box
Click to expand...

OK. Sounds like the extra time is in just taking it carefully to maintain the angle, if you're rechecking it with the quarters frequently. While still getting comfortable with the process, that's probably the best approach. In time, the feel for the angle will improve and things will speed up.

It does sound like cleaning the hone could help; and I'd still suggest wetting the hone (if you're not already) to minimize future clogging issues. I tend to believe some mineral oil does a better job for that, as water just evaporates too quickly in my uses and environment (dry desert southwest). Water, or soap & water (dish soap) is popular for such use also, if evaporation isn't quite so fast, depending on where you live.


David
 
samuraistuart said:
4 hours to set an edge bevel? On a new knife I make, I do one stroke per side at a time, establishing a NEW bevel, and this is done in less than 30 minutes with a Crystolon or DMT, regardless of steel.
Click to expand...

Any video? Like to see that... sounds like you have a good technique dialed in. :thumbup:
 
Personally I would go with a Norton Crystolon coarse over the DMT for that kind of work. Cheaper and you can apply pressure. If it were me, I would save the diamonds for finer sharpening.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
OK. Sounds like the extra time is in just taking it carefully to maintain the angle, if you're rechecking it with the quarters frequently. While still getting comfortable with the process, that's probably the best approach. In time, the feel for the angle will improve and things will speed up.

It does sound like cleaning the hone could help; and I'd still suggest wetting the hone (if you're not already) to minimize future clogging issues. I tend to believe some mineral oil does a better job for that, as water just evaporates too quickly in my uses and environment (dry desert southwest). Water, or soap & water (dish soap) is popular for such use also, if evaporation isn't quite so fast, depending on where you live.


David
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help. I do have some mineral oil also so maybe I'll try that first and then water.
Yes I'd like to see that too samurai. I'd love to set in about 30 mins.
 
Jamesh Bond said:
Personally I would go with a Norton Crystolon coarse over the DMT for that kind of work. Cheaper and you can apply pressure. If it were me, I would save the diamonds for finer sharpening.
Click to expand...

Does this crystalon stone need oil? Any oil stones I've use with the exception of Arkansas always absorbs the oil and that's even after soaking in mineral oil for days. Maybe it's just cheap stones idk
 
Bucketmouth said:
Does this crystalon stone need oil? Any oil stones I've use with the exception of Arkansas always absorbs the oil and that's even after soaking in mineral oil for days. Maybe it's just cheap stones idk
Click to expand...
Hi,
yes, that appears to be the case for ~$10 and under crystolon stones (ace hardware, norton economy)
they don't come preloaded with grease
where as ~$20 stones do,
but its easy to rub some vaseline on a stone,
and blast it with a hair dryer so it soaks in a bit


If the stone needs oil really depends on the bond strength ,
on how easily it makes mud/releases grit,
if its very weak bond,
then there is no benefit to using oil
if its harder bond then using oil keeps the stone from loading and keeps it cutting longer

norton crystolon stones the ~$20 version comes preloaded with oil/grease and they're hard bond
the norton economy stones (also crystolon) the ~$7 version do not come preloaded with oil/grease
but they're inconsistent, some are weaker bond on one or both sides, so they make mud pretty easy,
so not a lot of need for oil as lubricant
 
Mine are Norton stones (JUM-3 & IM 313) and these did not come preloaded with vaseline. If you don't like the grease, it's an easy fix. I use oil when sharpening with my stones. It helps them not load up. The IB-8 does come preloaded. DM
 
David Martin said:
Mine are Norton stones (JUM-3 & IM 313) and these did not come preloaded with vaseline. If you don't like the grease, it's an easy fix. I use oil when sharpening with my stones. It helps them not load up. The IB-8 does come preloaded. DM
Click to expand...
Hi,
It kind of makes sense that the IM313 aren't preoiled
as they're meant for kitchens/food and for the IM313 stainless steel holder
and the grease norton uses doesn't seem as pure as vaseline (food grade petroleum jelly)

Its much darker, picture from
Re: India Stone - coarse
DNuZqbi.jpg



I added vaseline because my stone holder was flimsy or none
and stone was very thirsty and the oil would leak out of it
but now I don't bother with oil anymore as it releases grit easy enough
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,
It kind of makes sense that the IM313 aren't preoiled
as they're meant for kitchens/food and for the IM313 stainless steel holder
and the grease norton uses doesn't seem as pure as vaseline (food grade petroleum jelly)

Its much darker, picture from
Re: India Stone - coarse
DNuZqbi.jpg



I added vaseline because my stone holder was flimsy or none
and stone was very thirsty and the oil would leak out of it
but now I don't bother with oil anymore as it releases grit easy enough
Click to expand...

The old tri stones with oil baths that were around most kitchens and butchers shops when I was coming up were filled with a Norton canned oil that was food grade.
I use usp mineral oil on all my crystolon stones, haven't had an India for 20 years, may have to grab one for old times sake.

Russ
 
bucket, that grease looks bad. Did you get all that out of one stone? These are replacement stones for Norton's Tri-Hone. The scratch pattern from the Norton SiC coarse is close to that of the X coarse DMT. There are too many 'buckets' running around this topic. :) DM
 
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