Supersteels. Practicality or Novelty?

Moxy

Moxy

Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
1,648
Question, why buy a knife with a supersteel? And I'm speaking in terms of a knife that will be put to use and carried.

Take the Para II for example. The s30v version can be had for about $140 ish give or take. But other versions with high end steels often go for almost double that. So, speaking from a strictly practical sense, does the extra performance of the steel justify the price hike? Lets just say that M390 can cut twice as much material as s30v before they're considered equally dull. Is resharpening such a hated chore that you'd be willing to spend double the money to only need to do it half as often? Or maybe you'd argue that by needing to resharpen it less the lifetime of the blade is increased. Ok, but you could still buy 2 with the standard steel for the price of one with with the high-end steel. And anyone who owns a Sharpmaker knows how quick and easy it is to touch up a microbevel and get a screaming sharp working edge.

So, being honest, for me high-end steels are mostly a novelty. Among production knives they're often limited editions, and that jacks the price up. But still, as a knife nut, it's neat owning a Kerhsaw leek with ZDP-189. And I love my Para II in m390. But since I'm a urban EDCer, and since I rotate through all my knives constantly, no one blade ever sees constant really hard use. Thus I can't notice a huge difference between M4 and Sanvik 14c28n, when most of my knives only see sparse light duty use. Both seem to stay really sharp for a good long time.

Everyone gets their panties in a bunch when they see a rope cut test that shows their favorite supersteel really doesn't perform all that great. When in reality it probably performs much much better than you'd ever need. I agree with jDavis (YouTube knife guy) when he says that only something like 15-25% of owners even put their knives through HARD use. The difference between the industry standard cutlery steels (154cm, s30v, 440c) and supersteels is really only evident when put to hard use. But still, even if you do work on a farm or lay carpet day to day, is s30v or 154cm not good enough? Give it a couple of swipes on a good quality stone before you go to work. I don't mean to stir the pot, I'm genuinely curious to hear the thoughts of someone who thinks they NEED s90v.
 
If I had to choose I say novelty. But bottom line ppl will choose what they think is "best" for their needs whether they actually need it or not.
As a fellow knife nut, I really dont mind spending a few minutes to touch up my ontario rat 1 at the end of the day of use.
 
As a regular knife guy, I'm fine with 8Cr13MoV. I guess that if your knife gets a real workout on the job, all day every day, edge retention could certainly be a factor in selecting a knife. But your point is well taken. Most workin' guys could get by just fine with the basic steels, which are still pretty high in performance in the big scheme of things. For most of the knife guys on Bladeforums who dig the supersteels, its just because they love their dang knives, love playing with them, talking about them, doing edge retention tests and showing them off. That's a perfectly good reason for buying high end steel, but in my view no one really "needs" the supersteels, especially when price is factored in. The average roofer or landscaper seems to get by just fine with his Kershaw Blur. Just my take, but again, I'm not a hardcore blade user either.
 
I vote: a novelty. Making knives from "super" steels is a tool to help sell knives to knife nuts, who are often steel snobs.

Better steel is better, but most folks could get by on most tasks just fine with 440C--source: there was a time that 440C was the good stuff, and humans were still using their knives . . .
 
Novelty or practicality depends a lot on the price. A lot of people were able to get in on Para2 preorders and buy those for good prices, actually less than the market price of a standard Para2 at the time. When the BB version in M390 was available it was priced about 50% more than the price of the standard model. At that price it was probably on the borderline between novelty and practicality. Whether it was worth it has to be answered by the person paying the money. I did read from someone that purchased one for a user and for them it was worth it because with the M390 he could use his knife all day without it getting too dull but with lesser steel he could not. I don't think many people can use this justification but some people probably can. As for paying more because it is a novelty, if a person wants to pay the money then that is their business. I did pay 50% more for a blue M390 version, both because it was a novelty AND because the steel would stay sharp longer, but I would not have paid 100% more for the other versions on the open market. One downside of the super steel is that it is harder to sharpen so you have to be equipped properly to do that.
 
Another vote for novelty. I've used some of the super steels on the job and not had a lot of luck with them. Whether I'm making gaskets, scraping gaskets, cutting out sprayed insulation, opening bags of c-mix or cutting miles of dirty road fabric, the knife is going to need to be sharpened at the end of the day no matter what steel it is. I much prefer spending 5 minutes touching up aus8 than 30 minutes filing the chips out of zdp189 or even vg-10. That brown FFG endura I had was terrible for chipping. YMMV
 
High-end anything is never about practicality.

Because of the advance of super-steels, eventually the common steels advance too. At one point 154cm was a super-steel and now it is a common steel. I am perfectly happy with that and I hope progress never stops. :)
I am happy with 8cr13mov, but I still want people pushing the boundaries of metallurgy.

Edit:
and about making statements like "15-25% of knife users do not HARD USE their knives", who cares? (and who knows anyway? I am sure some ego-freaks THINK they know... just like they know everything else.:rolleyes:)
How many Ferrari owners take the cars to the race track? I do not care. I still want Ferrari to make the best friggen cars they can.
 
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High- end "anything" has an ego-value to it...and makes you feel good. I like a nice car; a good steel...whatever. Life is short. Primarily, IMO, the super-steels are of more value to collectors than for EDC use. Even guys who spend time in the woods can carry a small sharpener in their billfold.
 
If the edge of a super steel blade lasts twice as long, it doesn't take twice as long to sharpen it because a lot of the time spent in the sharpening process is getting the stuff out, setting it up, and then putting it away. I especially like a long lasting edge if I am hiking the Appalachian Trail and don't want to carry my sharpening equipment. The newer knives, that have screws in the blade pivot, lend themselves to carrying a spare blade. So long lasting edges can have a practical application.
 
Supersteels certainly have their place... the ultra high edge retention ones like m390 are fantastic for folders where you don't want to have to resharpen them often. Infi is awesome for toughness in large, hard use knives...

Lower end steels are good, but not AS good
 
Seems like we get this question pretty often. If need is the reason for somethings existence or desirability than I'll take this to the next logical conclusion. Do you need a lock on your knife? Does it need to be steel? People cut things for thousands of years without using locking knives, or even steel. Why not just carry a piece of flint or a sharpened stone for the rare times you really need to cut something?

You people with your knives! Is your knife a novelty or is it really needed? How many people get by without carrying knives every day of their lives? Most of the world likely.

Without just trying to be a horses a$$ the above is pretty much the same to me as the "do we really need supersteels?" or, as above "why buy a knife with a supersteel? " questions we get way too often here.

Nope. We don't need super steels. We don't actually need steel at all in fact.

I'll still be collecting, comparing and using knives in different steels as long as I can. I could get by with EN9/1055-65 for the rest of my life easily. I'm glad I don't have to and can try out new steels, and treatments on old standbys. These times are certainly the best in my over 50 years and I love it. I hope the trend continues and the manufacturers keep pushing the limits of materials in the blades as well as the knife locks, grips, handles, and even coatings in some cases.

Joe
 
I prefer my knives to be as sharp as possible - and with these super steels the shaving edge just stays longer than the one on 440c. So for me, it is practical.
 
I really dont care much to tell you the truth. I prefer some sort of stainless for pocket knives and high carbon steel for choppers.
 
After using 8cr13mov in a warehouse (breaking down boxes) and then switching to S30V, I can definitely say that I believe "supersteels" are worth it. Corrosion and abrasion resistance are important qualities in a steel - especially if you use your knives extensively. To what point it switches from utility to novelty is subjective, of course. I think your opinion on this is based on your usage history and your budget.

I'm happy with VG10 and S30V. I feel no need to struggle with ZDP 189 but wouldn't mind testing out M390 or CTS 20CP.
 
Moxy said:
Question, why buy a knife with a supersteel? And I'm speaking in terms of a knife that will be put to use and carried.

Take the Para II for example. The s30v version can be had for about $140 ish give or take. But other versions with high end steels often go for almost double that. So, speaking from a strictly practical sense, does the extra performance of the steel justify the price hike? Lets just say that M390 can cut twice as much material as s30v before they're considered equally dull. Is resharpening such a hated chore that you'd be willing to spend double the money to only need to do it half as often? Or maybe you'd argue that by needing to resharpen it less the lifetime of the blade is increased. Ok, but you could still buy 2 with the standard steel for the price of one with with the high-end steel. And anyone who owns a Sharpmaker knows how quick and easy it is to touch up a microbevel and get a screaming sharp working edge.

So, being honest, for me high-end steels are mostly a novelty. Among production knives they're often limited editions, and that jacks the price up. But still, as a knife nut, it's neat owning a Kerhsaw leek with ZDP-189. And I love my Para II in m390. But since I'm a urban EDCer, and since I rotate through all my knives constantly, no one blade ever sees constant really hard use. Thus I can't notice a huge difference between M4 and Sanvik 14c28n, when most of my knives only see sparse light duty use. Both seem to stay really sharp for a good long time.

Everyone gets their panties in a bunch when they see a rope cut test that shows their favorite supersteel really doesn't perform all that great. When in reality it probably performs much much better than you'd ever need. I agree with jDavis (YouTube knife guy) when he says that only something like 15-25% of owners even put their knives through HARD use. The difference between the industry standard cutlery steels (154cm, s30v, 440c) and supersteels is really only evident when put to hard use. But still, even if you do work on a farm or lay carpet day to day, is s30v or 154cm not good enough? Give it a couple of swipes on a good quality stone before you go to work. I don't mean to stir the pot, I'm genuinely curious to hear the thoughts of someone who thinks they NEED s90v.
Click to expand...

S30v was a super steel when I first got an interest in steel. I still consider it one. If I'm not mistaken, so was 154cm not real long ago. In my experience in hard use you actually put a good amount of weight on ease of sharpening, because EVERY steel wears at some point. I have used Aus8 steel knives pretty abusively outdoors and at work, and it does great. I would still love a sprint military, or a tilt, or some crazy zt, or custom, or every mule team, or.... or.... etc etc. I am foremost a user, but if I had the funds I would buy the ever living crap out of crazy exotic steels just to see if they are up to snuff in real/heavier use. What did Sal say? Something like "the spirit of the knife is the steel, but it only comes out in use" (I may be wrong, just trying to respect a visionary)
 
I like my PM2 in S30V.

BUT, a PM2 in CPM M4 would effectively end my search for "the last knife". It really is that big of a difference.
 
I vote novelty for the most part. I've become an anti-steel snob over the years. I'll EDC anything that cuts. Turns out relatively humble steels suit me quite well.

I understand the appeal of long edge holding and high hardness and high abrasion resistance. But I've found it to be a bit of a false economy. To me, a super steel knife is kind of like going shooting with a high capacity full auto firearm versus a single shot. Sure, you get to spray fifty rounds over the course of a couple seconds versus one round at a time. But all the effort has simply been moved elsewhere. You still have to put the time and effort into loading each round. Just into a magazine rather than directly into the gun, like you would with a single shot.

Similarly, super steels require more dedication than more modest steels and maintenance efforts are often concentrated rather than spread out. This kind of dedication I've grown a bit weary of when some really low end, sometimes mystery, steels perform so well, and are maintained so effortlessly. As such, I don't like to talk esoteric numbers and letters when talking about steel. I prefer to talk real life performance/useability.
 
I wouldn't use the term novelty, it may be for most users who never use. For me and some users I would call it a specialty. Some need a better steel, most don't. Super steels are elite and some elite users use them.
 
We need more options here! Neither option applies to me.

I would probably say "luxury".
 
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