Supersteels. Practicality or Novelty?

I just need a knife that will get through the day without sharpening. This will depend if it's a camping trip or a house chore. I don't mind lower edge retention where a stone is handy. If I'm away on a extended trip where I don't have my sharpening equipment handy, then edge holding will get me through!
 
This topic makes me want to make a bronze replacement blade for one of my knives and EDC that, just for shits and giggles... Might make a topic on that if I do.

On topic though, I love ZDP-189 and my other high-end steels. I mention ZDP-189 because I love being able to carry around the Caly 3 CF for a solid week or two without sharpening my knife, as I sometimes go for a few days without being home, able to sharpen my knives.
 
Since most of my hard knife work is done in outdoor situation where my dumb a@$ wanders aimlessly throughout the woods I actually prefer a softer, less expensive steel. If for whatever reason I got lost and had to go into survival mode I would much rather have a steel that dulls quickly but can be easily resharpened on a river rock then a steel that will stay sharp longer but if it does get to the point where it dulls I'm up a creek. I had recently purchased a Fiskars X15 hatchet. While I was spliting some wood on my porch it took a very hard smack into concrete which effectively turned it into a dull butter knife. A couple minutes with a file and a cheap smiths diamond stone I got the whole edge back to hair popping sharp.
 
After reading this many posts it's obvious that for some, a supersteel is practical, and for others it's a novelty. That's the way it should be. Folks are getting what they want and like.
 
Bugout Bill said:
Does that realistically happen?
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Yep. here's story...
A few years ago I had to process a bunch of frozen carp to be ground up for scientific research purposes (as reference material).
I had to use the cleaver they had there...and had to constantly use the sharpening stone. I swear I was sharpening more often then cutting (well, batonning, really) those damn fish.
The thing



I made in O1 steel worked WAY better. :thumbup:

Sharpen every couple of fish, or keep on working, hmmm, let me think...:D
 
Akcir said:
After reading this many posts it's obvious that for some, a supersteel is practical, and for others it's a novelty. That's the way it should be. Folks are getting what they want and like.
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A big "Hell Yeah!" on this post. :thumbup:
 
Most if not all of the so-called super-steels are made for industrial high-speed and high-volume cutting applications.

Additionally, the steel is only as good as the heat treat.

As a knife aficionado, I like to try out the different steels and will pay a large premium to do so. It is a privilege to be able to afford to do so and as such, for me it is novelty.

Ultimately, it is about what you WANT and what you can AFFORD.

For me, the difference I notice the most in all of the steels I have had a chance to own and use is in sharpening. I don't use fancy whiz-bang sharpeners, I use diamond stones (maybe those are fancy whiz-bang to some...) and scrape them across the stone by hand.

I can tell you that s90v from HTM is a LOT harder to get an edge scraped up on than a Buck, but both get sharp enough to cut the end off of a cigar.

On a hand held knife, super-steels are novel. In a high-speed industrial stamping / cutting operation it makes more sense. If it were not for industrial uses, we would not even have many of these steel recipes.


best

mqqn
 
I would consider High end steels a want, or a luxury item. The problem that I have (and don't get me wrong, I have lots of the "super steels") is the difficulty in sharpening. Sure, you have to sharpen them half as often. But...... They can take twice as long to sharpen!
 
stabman said:
Yep. here's story...
A few years ago I had to process a bunch of frozen carp to be ground up for scientific research purposes (as reference material).
I had to use the cleaver they had there...and had to constantly use the sharpening stone. I swear I was sharpening more often then cutting (well, batonning, really) those damn fish.
The thing



I made in O1 steel worked WAY better. :thumbup:

Sharpen every couple of fish, or keep on working, hmmm, let me think...:D
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That knife is still cool and i want one.
 
It depends, if you are an individual who rarely cuts anything more than tape or paper with your knife then it is a novelty. Working on a farm I cut anything you can think of and the blade can get damp from sweat or getting caught in the rain. Using my knife heavily everyday and with it being exposed to the elements I certainly appreciate the edge retention improvements of a super steal as well as the extreme corrosion resistance some offer. I have yet to find a single rust spot on any of my Elmax blades. I used to carry a 8cr13mov blade, the thing took an insanely sharp edge but wouldn't cut warm butter after a single day's work, and I couldn't keep rust off it.
 
Very practical in my opinion. I use my knives hard every day and it makes no sense for me to use a lesser steel and have to sharpen it through out the day when I can use a "super" steel, that maintains a razor sharp edge, though out the day.

Nullity hit the nail on its head. A "super" steel is a luxury
 
I have a wide variety of steel knives, everything from 1095 carbon steel to ElMax. I like steels. Some peole like the scales (or covers). Others like violins. I'm OK with all that.

However, I do take issue with the idea that it takes twice as long to sharpen, say D2, as to sharpen 1095. As has been mentioned, much depends upon the heat treat and the blade grind, but all else being equal, I spend the same amount of time touching up the D2 as I do the 1095. One pass down with the 220 stone, then the 400, 600, 1000, and strop with horsehide. There are people who do it differently and some who can get it sharper than I can. I'm OK with that, too. However, my method (using an Edge Pro) takes maybe ten minutes including set up and take down and results in hair popping sharp blades. If I were at home and had a garage so I could leave everything set up, it might take five minutes. And the process is the same, regardless of steel. Haven't met one yet that required two passes of everything to bring the edge back. In some cases, I didn't even need the stones--just passed it over the strop a few times and we were back in business.
 
IMO There is no such thing as a "Super Steel"..these steels exist because they were designed for other uses than making knife blades..developing these steels for knife you can comfortably put in your pocket was the last thing on the minds of those designing M4, M390, S110V etc. Even though CPM does list S110V as being made for: Industrial knives, slitters and circular cutters I seriously doubt they had the small amount of S110V sold to knife makers to as a reason for designing it. All types of high speed/cutting/slicing industrial uses is their focus.

That being said I've been using the pudding out of my K390 Mule and Wow! What a steel! Its puts my S30V bladed knives to shame for edge retention, if K390 steel is a "novelty" then I'll take more "novelty" bladed knives please.
 
Moxy said:
Question, why buy a knife with a supersteel? And I'm speaking in terms of a knife that will be put to use and carried.

Take the Para II for example. The s30v version can be had for about $140 ish give or take. But other versions with high end steels often go for almost double that. So, speaking from a strictly practical sense, does the extra performance of the steel justify the price hike? Lets just say that M390 can cut twice as much material as s30v before they're considered equally dull. Is resharpening such a hated chore that you'd be willing to spend double the money to only need to do it half as often? Or maybe you'd argue that by needing to resharpen it less the lifetime of the blade is increased. Ok, but you could still buy 2 with the standard steel for the price of one with with the high-end steel. And anyone who owns a Sharpmaker knows how quick and easy it is to touch up a microbevel and get a screaming sharp working edge.

So, being honest, for me high-end steels are mostly a novelty. Among production knives they're often limited editions, and that jacks the price up. But still, as a knife nut, it's neat owning a Kerhsaw leek with ZDP-189. And I love my Para II in m390. But since I'm a urban EDCer, and since I rotate through all my knives constantly, no one blade ever sees constant really hard use. Thus I can't notice a huge difference between M4 and Sanvik 14c28n, when most of my knives only see sparse light duty use. Both seem to stay really sharp for a good long time.

Everyone gets their panties in a bunch when they see a rope cut test that shows their favorite supersteel really doesn't perform all that great. When in reality it probably performs much much better than you'd ever need. I agree with jDavis (YouTube knife guy) when he says that only something like 15-25% of owners even put their knives through HARD use. The difference between the industry standard cutlery steels (154cm, s30v, 440c) and supersteels is really only evident when put to hard use. But still, even if you do work on a farm or lay carpet day to day, is s30v or 154cm not good enough? Give it a couple of swipes on a good quality stone before you go to work. I don't mean to stir the pot, I'm genuinely curious to hear the thoughts of someone who thinks they NEED s90v.
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I'm going to sound like an old curmudgeon here, so feel free to ignore what you don't like.

I like all steels, still have an affinity for 1095 and O1, although it's more for nostalgia. But I do like them and still use them. They work just fine and they are just as good as when they were the "new" steels. Now fast forward to super steels. Keep this in mind. Geometry does the cutting. Selecting the right steel at the right hardness allows you to take advantage of the geometry. When you get a "supersteel" that's optimized for cutting, you are not talking edge holding twice as long as steel X, but 10 to 20 times longer. No joke. All of a sudden, that custom knife that cost 3 or 4 times the production knife looks pretty good. I'm not even necessarily talking hard use, just lots of constant use. But it's still a luxury, IMO.

When you use a knife daily and can't remember the last time you sharpened it, and it's STILL sharp, you might have a "super" steel. :D Yes, that has happened to me.
 
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When I think of novelty, I think of auto's and assisted opening. It doesn't really add anything to the blade performance. Having used a Para 2 in 20CP, M390, and S30v pretty extensively, I think they can be practical if you use them a lot. I think they are worth the dealer markup but not so much the ebay and exchange prices.
 
ToxicBot11 said:
IMO There is no such thing as a "Super Steel"..these steels exist because they were designed for other uses than making knife blades..developing these steels for knife you can comfortably put in your pocket was the last thing on the minds of those designing M4, M390, S110V etc. Even though CPM does list S110V as being made for: Industrial knives, slitters and circular cutters I seriously doubt they had the small amount of S110V sold to knife makers to as a reason for designing it. All types of high speed/cutting/slicing industrial uses is their focus.

That being said I've been using the pudding out of my K390 Mule and Wow! What a steel! Its puts my S30V bladed knives to shame for edge retention, if K390 steel is a "novelty" then I'll take more "novelty" bladed knives please.
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I like the brevity of your post and agree 100%.

I love me some 3V, M4, M390, S90V and S110V. I enjoy the thought of acquiring even better steels down the road. Not a novelty at all for me. :thumbup:
 
super steels may not be absolutely necessary, but they are definitely not a novelty either. especially as they are becoming more and more available at lower price points.

a recent example. my Byrd was carried for a day of work, got home and the edge had rolled way over in several spots, and it had dulled to the point of near uselessness halfway through my work day. the few weeks before I had carried my cpm m4 military without sharpening at all. no visible edge damage, and while it lost the ability to shave, the working edge stuck around so much longer. however sharpening it is kind of a bear.

I like vg10 for sharpening, but it still dulls to near butter knife status in one day. s30v often keeps a working edge for about a work week. m4 for several.
 
sodak said:
Geometry does the cutting.
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This also holds true for the opposite argument. I've had dull kitchen knives continue to cut well because of the geometry. And by well I mean better then most of my sharp outdoors/user knives. Geometry is the most important aspect in knife design IMO.

This argument isn't a new one. I think even Nessmuk said something about knvies that were "too hard" 150 years ago. IMO, if you have a specific task and the money then a supersteel makes sense. I keep my knives sharp at all times so for me the type of steel comes into play with maintenance. It factors into how often and for how long I have to sharpen that edge. I use a SAK everyday at work and to do some whittling at home from time to time. I sharpen it on a strop for a couple minutes once or twice a month. So maintenance isn't all that big of a deal for me so I made the trade off from an EDC like a Spyderco with a good steel to a SAK with a good geometry.
 
You mean S30V is not a super steel? Gee, who'da thunk it! In the picture below, the knife on the left was bought in 96. It's been sharpened too many times to recall. Sometimes daily, sometimes weekly. But lots. It's made of CPM440V, which was a predecessor of S30V. If I put it back-to-back with either of the others, the blade shows a loss of about 1/32 inch lengthwise. Cannot tell if the width is off. Not bad for almost 20 years old.

Can you detect a noticable difference in the blade from either of the other two, both of which were bought in 2012 and have only been lightly honed now-and-again. Both are S30V.

Personally, if S30V is not a super steel, I'm fine with it anyhow. I think a knife made of that will outlast you easily, even if you sharpen it daily.

 
Like with the most of staff for some people high wear resistant steels are practical and for some just fun.
Ernie1980 said:
The problem that I have (and don't get me wrong, I have lots of the "super steels") is the difficulty in sharpening. Sure, you have to sharpen them half as often. But...... They can take twice as long to sharpen!
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Probably, people who are interested in such steels need to have adequate tools to sharpen these kind of knives, like with everything else in the world.
 
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