Survival Situation: 3-$100 or 1-$300 knife

[BalefireX]

What if we opened it up to either
1) one knife, total cost $300 or
2) three knives, total cost $300?
I assume that that was the original intent of the first poster, as to whether $300 would be better spent on one blade or three.

Now that you can open the "bidding" to knives like the Camp Tramp, etc, would this change the opinion of any of the one knife guys?

My personal experience is that in areas of the world where people spend a lot of time in wilderness living scenarios the pairing of a machete and a moderately sized fixed blade is a time honored favorite.

NB that in a a 3 for 300 scenario you could go as far as spending $280 on a Fehrman First Strike, $10 on a machete, and $10 on a Mora, if you wished.

Apologies in advance to any members of the Semantics Police who I may offend with my open interpretation.

 

[Ebbtide]

ITs not just about splitting nearly any blade can accomplish this. IT is about prying apart a 6 foot log is the issue here.

So teach me something.
Why does someone have to pry apart a 6' log?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebbtide
"What have you had to pry in the woods?"


When chopping thick woods, efficiency can be greater if you can leverage the blade sideways to clear the wood, this has a many to one effect on chopping time. It also distributes the load over more muscle groups which is usually a good thing for several reasons.

Usually most chopping blades can do this by default as if they are thick enough to get enough weight and move fluidly in the wood, they are thick enough to handle any lateral forces you could apply to them. There are a few exceptions such as some of the spine-soft bolos.

In general it gives you one more tool you can use, there is never a "need" to do it, in that you can't get by without it, just like you don't "need" a knife at all, it just again gives you another tool. As you get better you "need" less tools, really experienced choppers for example won't do the blade leveraging as their hit placement is perfect enough that it isn't necessary.

Only since you quoted me cliff...
You didn't answer the question. You quoted the question but apparantley didn't understand the "had" part. I thought I explained "HAD" in the following sentences that you left out of your quote of me.
So you won't have to page back
""What have you had to pry in the woods?"
For real, as in BTDT or I wouldn't be here had to.
Not 'if' or 'could' .....had to as in hypothermia had to...no food had to...not get home had to."

I thought you & I don't play the "partial quote so I can sound right" game anymore cliff.
:shrug:

In general it gives you one more tool you can use, there is never a "need" to do it, in that you can't get by without it, just like you don't "need" a knife at all, it just again gives you another tool.

So I don't "need" a $300 prybar but I do have other tools?
Or I don't "need" a knife?
Or there is never a "need" to do it?

I'll stop if you will
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's what I teach my students (see photo in my previous post)
Buy the best you can afford.
Read books.
Practice.
Keep an open mind.
Take care of your tools and they will take care of you.
Use the right tool for the job.
Don't plan to improvise (Thank you Mr. Tappan)
Failure to plan is planning to fail. (Ben Franklin?)
And, above all... think, then do.

 

[plow_2]

I'd go with three knives for the most practical reason.
I'm not going to be sarcastic here which I sure could.
If you have to survive in the woods, you are probably going to want at least these three things
-water
-food
-fire
Now say you use your big chopper to build a small lean to and a fire, good. Now you fashion some crude device to hunt wild game, good.
You kill some game, lets say a squirrel and a dear. Have you ever tried to dress a squirrel or deer with a >6 inch blade that you just used to build a shelter? Since people love to throw what if's into situations, say you managed to get some meat off of the animal and a bear comes to the smell and decides he wants it more than you while your knife is on the ground on the other side of the deer and you run away, now you have no knife.

Now take the same scenario, I build my shelter with my Rat-7 being CAREFUL not to put it in a situation where it is likely to break. Chop smaller logs and branches. If it does break then I have another small blade to fall back on, say a chudzinski Nessmuck or even an RTAK. I kill some game, now I have a still sharp smallish fixed blade and a small-medium folder like a SAK/Spydie Military/Benchmade mini grip in which to dress my game with.

I love choppers too, but they aare not the be all/end all of knives and like it or not, there are other knives that are practical too. :thumbup:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What have you had to pry in the woods?

As noted, you don't have to, it just makes various tasks easier if you can. You don't have to chop or cut either, you can build a shelter and start a fire without a knife, and with enough skill and practice, do it all with any tools using friction methods to start a fire and using the fire to do any heavy wood shaping, cut cordage, shape metals, etc. . It is just easier with tools.

-Cliff

 

[grassebud]

This thread is such a bunch of crap. Why do you guys waste your time w/ people like skammer and Cliff? It's quite obvious they are chairborne rangers.

 

[Thomas Linton]

This thread is such a bunch of crap. Why do you guys waste your time w/ people like skammer and Cliff? It's quite obvious they are chairborne rangers.

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct about Cliff and Skammer (You're not, but let's play "what if?") and that you disagree with their judgments on the merits.

Should comments that you believe are incorrect go unanswered in a public forum where the uninformed may go for advice? Does it make a difference if you dislike the style in which the arguments are presented or because personal attacks are made?

Stripped of the rough language and personal attacks back and forth, what we have here is a classic debate between advocates of putting all available resources into one, big knife and advocates of spreading resources over a set of more specialized tools OR to create redundancy. Plus, there is an element of advocacy for particular brands of knives.

Among adults, even very strong disagreement should not break down into flame war, but it often does ---- because of the style in which arguments are presented and a tendency in some to attack the opposing person rather than his/their arguments. Hell, some people are disagreeable even when agreeing with you, much less when they think you are wrong.


"I think Busse is a better brand than TOPS because . . . . ."

vs.

[typically after they don't "buy" your initial arguments] "Anyone who would buy TOPS over Busse is naive, bizarre, clueless, immature, inexperienced, absurd, and has low standards." [So there!]

(If I mention TOPS enough . . . . .)

 

[ras]

Okay, if I was starting from scratch and only had $300 to spend on knives, I'd have to go with three good knives to fill three plus roles, heavy chopping, camp utility, and a multi-blade folder for small jobs. I'd look at a BK1 Brute ($104.95), a TOPS Blue Otter ($86.95) and an SAK Outrider (~$32).
Subtotal is $224 so I've got $76 to shop for a multi-tool.

I didn't go that route. Of those three, the only knife I have is the Outrider. Fehrman filled the other two roles. But I do like the TOPS Blue Otter.

Gotta go, turbulent times and the stockmarket is calling

 

[skammer]

This thread is such a bunch of crap. Why do you guys waste your time w/ people like skammer and Cliff? It's quite obvious they are chairborne rangers.

LMAO what are you a 12yr old little troll?

List your extensive expertise for us mere rangers. :yawn:

Grassbud You are known for some excellent and intellectual arguments like below.

"Until you can make a knife better then Bark River can, just shut your pie hole. HAve you ever even thought of making a knife? Didn't think so. You have no idea how much talent it takes...........LOL
Get a life dude!!! I really hope you are a teen....if not.... "

This thread is a testiment to why children need PC supervision.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

L... we have here is a classic debate between advocates of putting all available resources into one, big knife and advocates of spreading resources over a set of more specialized tools OR to create redundancy.

While interesting from a thought experiment point of view, this is a moot point as far as reality goes as why make that decision. Instead of having two cheap knives with one as a backup, why not have two quality knives.

The main question comes down to versatility vs ease of carry / portability. An axe, machete, and short blade is more versatile than a stout long blade but is heavier and takes up more space. However just saying "an axe" leaves out a lot of the equation.

I would not use the same axe to cut pine as I do spruce (it is harder and way knottier), I have an axe for each. I also don't use the same axe to limb, and I have a different one to split. If I was log building I would have another, and for wood shaping one more. That is six, probably eight as I would like three splitters ideally
[*].

At some point you need to think about what you can carry and what you are willing to trade off in performance for weight/space. It isn't like there is a clear cut right or wrong answer for this, so you can say the guy who choses the one axe for portablity is right but the guy who choses the long blade for the same reason to a greater extent is wrong.

I tend to favor a long stout blade (1/4"+), as it easily handles the wood I would need to cut for shelter or fire, works well as a small machete and still does precision work. While it would be out performed by specialized tools, it isn't to the extent I would carry them. I am not cutting a cord of wood, from 8-12" thick, if I was then I take my axes.

Different people would take different things depending on their skill, physical ability and goals. I have been thinking of switching to a lighter axe for some time and seeing how that compares as I usually think of "axe" being full size felling, which is overkill and have not done a lot of work with the small forest axe (GB) style which are very different.

-Cliff


[*] Splitting axe, splitting maul and mega-maul, plus at least two wedges.

 

[Thomas Linton]

While interesting from a thought experiment point of view, this is a moot point as far as reality goes as why make that decision. Instead of having two cheap knives with one as a backup, why not have two quality knives.
. . .

-Cliff

>Hey, I'm all for three quality knives. :thumbup:

>I'm not sure it's "moot." My impression is that folks make decisions based on cost all the time. I think the question is how to spend a stated amount. Make it $5000 and I got some other suggestions.

>Just trying to go with the question presented - 1 or 3 -- all "knives."

>"Cheap"? Who said anything about "cheap"? That has the connotation of inferior goods by any standard - junk. (Or bird calls for that matter )

>I think I suggested weight (and space) as an issue several posts above, so I gotta' agree with you on that. Great point! ('Course he didn't say we'd be on foot or whether this was 72-hour-survival or primitive-living survival.)

Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Points taken
******************************************************

>Cliff, you've tested HI khuks. "Cheap"? I've seen them sharp enough to do the hanging rope thing, draw cut paper, etc. They do chop. 1/4" would be too small. Send it back for a grown-up khukuri.

>Is an RD-7 or RD-9 a "cheap" knife in your experience?

**********************************************************

And if we're talking about tools other than knives, and given inequality in skill levels, is a big chopper safer to use if your fine motor skills are shot vs. a good folding prunning saw? In other words, the knife might outlast the saw but will you outlast the knife? Chopping is, by its very nature a violent act. (Couple of the folks I was tasked to find were overdue because of chopping themselves in the leg.)

Does the knife use less or more energy than the saw to cut up the same amount of wood?

The saw has got to be quieter if noise is an issue -- as it is if you don't want to spook game or attract attention.

But saws, and axes, are not the topic.

Just knives and insults.

 

[skammer]

TO add further insult :barf: . All, every one of my illustrious posts above are all based on a blade that is 7+inches in length.

Not anything shorter as their use is much more limited.

this scenario should have been qualified more.

Skam

 

[OmegaA]

3 knives, of course - this is what even recommended to go with to wilderness - one for heavy work, one multi-tool and one slicer/carver. But $300??? This is gonna last you a lifetime! And why there are so many worries that the knife will break? Even if it breaks, can you not continue using it? I had a few hand-made knives with very brittle blade and I think only one broke down, but then my father reshaped it and we continued using it.
Not to be funny, but I am still embarrassed to tell my father how much I paid for some of my knives. In his opinion, anything more expensive than Victorinox is waste of money.
If you could see my relatives who still continue living nomadic lifestyle in mountains. My God, you should have seen their knives! They are a piece of sharpened steel! If you do not wipe them dry immediately after use they get rusty.
They do not have multi-tools at all, but there is always an axe in yurtas, and a few kitchen knives. Some men have folders, but mainly it is fixed blade knife, not because of comfort, but because folders are more expensive and they have to count every penny. To be realistic, all their sharp equipment should cost not more than $30. To pay higher prices, even though you go to live in a wild place for several months – they will think you don't know how to spend money usefully! And they live for 6-8 months a year in mountains rarely seeing strangers.
One thing about high-end quality knives: I would not mind in case of emergency to take my Busse knife, but I will most likely leave Spyderco or other knives with hard steel at home - how will you sharpen your knife when it gets dull?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

HI khuks. "Cheap"?

No, I suggested several quality blades in the $100 range, noting the RD series for example is a very durable blade in that class. I was commenting more on the viewpoint of buying replacements in regards to failure instead of buying a quality tool. You can often get very high quality tools on the secondary market if you check ebay and on the forums, thus opens up a lot of choices. Then you have the deals on HI khukuris and the village models which also knock the price down.

...is a big chopper safer to use if your fine motor skills are shot vs. a good folding prunning saw?

It is fairly difficult to hurt yourself with a manual saw, seriously anyway, and rather trivial with a chopping blade fairly seriously with just minor lapses in attention.

Saw injuries are fairly common with power equipment, but manual saws are rare unless you get really sloppy and let your thumb ride under the cut or something equally careless.

Saws can deal with problem woods (rot / twists) trivially with no danger to the user, while a blade can glance badly on the same and pose a great danger to the chopper, or blade if it smashes into a rock which means a lot of filing.

I spend time with partial grips and do left hand work to gain experience while chopping in less than ideal conditions. I have also done work after staying up all night to learn how to handle fatigue.

Essentially it comes down to doing the same as you normally wood, just more of it, so check things twice, go slower and more deliberate, and pay much more attention to the wood.

You do bring up a valid point though, you would have to be much more seriously injured to not be able to use a saw+small knife vs a large one. I tore my shoulder a few years back, bad enough I could not lift a can of coke.

It was a long time before I could swing an axe, I could however use a small handsaw fairly quickly, these take almost no force to run.

Does the knife use less or more energy than the saw to cut up the same amount of wood?

Depends on the user. I spend a lot of time with an axe and large blade, I don't do a lot of sawing. My brother is the exact opposite using hand saws a lot in carpentry but little axe work.

With equal skill/experience, an axe is much more efficient at limbing and felling and a saw much more efficient at bucking to length. A saw helps an axe greatly when felling and is little use on limbing.

If you are willing to go very light a saw can be more efficient than an axe because unlike an axe it doesn't need a set amount of penetration to be productive, if you go lighter with an axe you will start to fail to open the chip and thus need more chops.

A saw is pretty much linear in responce to load in comparison thus is much more efficient in general as you can go light and thus reduce fatigue. So with even basic training a saw is probably better for straight bucking. For the other tasks it would depend on the individual.

It doesn't take much skill/experience for a blade/axe to race well ahead of a saw for limbing, felling. Unless it is small wood, I keep thinking of cutting wood to burn, for shelter and such, 2-4" poles, a saw can do this efficiently. Behind an axe on quality wood, but not by much.

-Cliff

 

[Horn Dog]

Down here in southern coastal Georgia, we have a big river with some pretty wild swamps. It is called the Altamaha. When I go down there, sometimes I get stranded for a time, or temporarily disoriented. I always carry three knives. Until my recent improvement in finances, the total cost of all three was under $100.00. One BFK (usually a 14" Tramontina or 18" Collins machete), one Buck 110, and one SAK Recruit was what I needed, could afford, and used. They served me well, but I don't stab car doors or break concrete blocks with knives. Now, I can choose one RTAK or Becker Bowie or CS Kukri or Ontario Camp machete, one SAK Trekker or recruit, and one CRKT Partner or Air Force survival or Blackwater (benchmade) 4.5" tactical or RAT-7 or Ka-Bar or Becker Combat/Utility. My Chris Reeve Green Beret shipped today, so it might replace any of the medium size knives, but not the other two. The Chris Reeve is a $300.00 knife, but it doesn't have tweezers or a can opener, and I doubt that it is going to out chop any of the big knives.

 

[Ebbtide]

The question was about past experience dictated by necessity, not hypothetical situations.
Either you haven't answered the question, again...
Or the answer is:
"No I haven't had to pry anything in the woods but like to."

And yes, I agree...
It's just easier with tools.

But if the only tool you have is a hammer...
Well, you know the rest.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The question was about past experience dictated by necessity, not hypothetical situatuations.
Either you haven't answered the question, again...
Or the answer is:
"No I haven't had to pry anything in the woods but like to."

And yes, I agree...
It just easier with tools.

But if the only tool you have is a hammer...
Well, you know the rest.

Would that be a claw hammer? (I worked one Summer as a framer before nail guns.)

 

[ras]

Is that a $300 claw hammer or can you use a less expensive hammer and then buy a saw, square, level and tape measure too? Maybe some nails. . .

No doubt, three different knives carefully selected would be a better choice.

 

[Ebbtide]

Actually that was a claw hammer, a ball peen hammer and a mallet!

 

[skammer]

You guys crack me up :barf:

I am in amazement how the early settlers and the plains Indians got along for so long with out $300.00 knives. If you can spend the money good for you. I would be just fine with a $20.00 cold steel bushman. Know YOUR limitations, and your equipments, you will survive alot longer.

Tony,

Don't speak for the natives, its ignorant to think those same settlers if given the choice and financial means wouldn't have traded up for better steel and tools. They used what they did because thats all there was.

I have done exactly that with native peoples and they don't defend their steel when they see the difference in quality. Matter of fact the are very savy on getting the latest and greatest with no hesitation, brand loyalty or political agenda.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

"No I haven't had to pry anything in the woods but like to."

Yes, and this extends to knife work in general, I have never had to cut/chop either, it is just easier when you can, similar for a nice folding saw, you never have to saw either, it is simply an advantage to have the option.

-Cliff