Survival Situation: 3-$100 or 1-$300 knife

[skammer]

" i wouldn't call buying an RD series blade being cheap or preparing to fail."

An RD 7 is over the $100 scenario when shipping is in, but beside that point Ranger blades are work horses no question. They are also made of non Busse treated steel he got from Busse (latest I heard). Even Ranger knives I bet will admit they are not on parr with more expensive blades under hard use like Busse to name a few.

"i just don't understand how some guys think that the only blades that will get the job done are $300 and up."

Its about getting more than the job done if needed, anything else is second rate. SOme settle for mere satisfactory while others appreciate extraordinary performance and are willing to pay for thus performance.

I dont understand why people people buy domestic cars as they are light years behind much of the world in nearly every engineered part. People do what they do. shrug

"alot of the $300 knives are leaps and bounds better than alot of $100 blades."

You just summed up my hole point in one sentence, its the leaps and bounds in quality I want in a blade. YOu have lower standards and thats ok too.

"but that's not to say that if you do your homework, you can't find a quality blade that will take alot of abuse for under $100. and given that these $100 workhorses are out there, i'd take three blades for more versatility."

YOu are rationalizing now, of course you can find a beater blade cheap but some of us are not ok with that.
I dont like paying double for the real soda coke, I buy the cola knockoffs so I understand your point you make, I just dont think there is any place for this kind of frugalness in a tool that could save your life potentially.

We are back to the used second hand parachute theory pretty much. It will do the job you ask of it (maybe) but you saved a few bucks good for you :thumbup: .


Skam

 

[Thomas Linton]

While a folder cannot replace a fixed-blade in terms of ability to withstand hard use, it might be useful as a second knife. Of course, that is not possible as a response in this thread if the single $300 knife is selected. So a Manix, HI AK chiruwa khukuri, and a SAK with a saw -- and change.

I'm surprised no one has argued that three knives may weigh more/take up more space than a single knife if "survival" requires hoofing it.


Edited: Damn. You're right. It was 3 x $100. That rules out the Manix. Too bad since the Manix has a more secure lock and stronger (flat vs, hollow) grind, G-10 vs cold aluminum handles, and superior ergos. But that's life.

 

[skammer]

While a folder cannot replace a fixed-blade in terms of ability to withstand hard use, it might be useful as a second knife. Of course, that is not possible as a response in this thread if the single $300 knife is selected. So a Manix, HI AK chiruwa khukuri, and a SAK with a saw -- and change.

I'm surprised no one has argued that three knives may weigh more/take up more space than a single knife if "survival" requires hoofing it.

Stop it Thomas you make to much sense, I am warning you.

Skam

 

[Thomas Linton]

Stop it Thomas you make to much sense, I am warning you.

Skam

You just like me because I have "higher" standards. That happens when one tries HI AK model khukuris. Hell for strong choppers since they are the better part of a sharpened truck leaf spring. Sort of a giant Marbles Idea approach --- forged with a shallow fuller behind the edge. (Although a SAR guy elsewhere complains that they handles give him blisters due to center ring around handle [so remove the ring].)

Worse than $100 vs $300 is the notion that the ideal survival knife is a SAK or a Mora. They have their place. I own and appreciate them. They are surely better than fingernails but just don't fit my idea of your best and last resort tool when you may be any one or combination of: exhausted, clumsy, hyporthermic, hyperthermic, weak from hunger or dehydration, and/or scared out of your skull.

 

[cheung_victor]

3 Why 3 well you never know when one may break or get lost

SOG Seal Reavolver
LM Charge xti
And maybe a Axe or SAK

 

[allenC]

Skammer,

"As far as equalizing a CR folder to a spyderco, Allen you need to read the blade forums a little more before palying the $60 folder is better than a quality folder game."

First of all, yes, I am comparing a Chris Reeve Sebenza to a Spyderco folder--but not a $60.00 Spyderco folder like the FRN Delica.

I specificly stated the MANIX and the CHINOOK II.
Have you even held these two Spyderco folders in you hand?
I assure you that they are every bit a tough and well made and durable as any CR folder.
If you had actually handled one you would know that to be true.

And as for me needing to read the forums more...
Maybe you should check out the date that I joined the forums and compare it to the date that you joined.
You've got a lot of catching up to do.


And to address some more of your...eh, bizarre remarks.

You said:
"NO FOLDER IS A SURVIVAL BLADE PERIOD"

And this:
"A folder is not part of this scenario as far as I am concerned because its nearly useless. As far as I am aware there isn't a folder I can't snap at a pivot point prying it in short order. Utterly useless."

And this little gem:
"The ultimate test for a blade is wedging it into a log and prying it apart."

I believe that you must be rather young or maybe just very inexperienced when it comes to wilderness survival.
Actually you seem rather naive about knife usage altogether.
If you think that a folder is "utterly useless", you have shown everyone here just how limited your skills are.
The very fact that you think that you need a fixed-blade that can pry logs apart to survive tells me that you don't know much about wilderness survival at all.

You might find this hard to believe, but there are primitive peoples all around the world, living right now in every type of climate, who survive every day with far less of a blade than a Buck 110.

But let's forget all of that for a moment...
We'll refer to fixed-blades:
Please tell me what a Chris Reeve Sable I (MSRP $415.00) can do that a BK&T (Becker) Combat Bowie #BK9 (MSRP $96.50) cannot do in a survival situation?
Do you think the Becker would fail because it cost less than $100.00?


Anyway, I do encourage you to stick around the forums so that you can learn.

BTW, you mentioned "your students"?
Please tell me that you're not passing along you great wisdom and "skills" to others, are you?!?
If so, then you forum name fits you to a "T".

Allen.

 

[Ebbtide]

I don't mean to pry but....
This young scout wanted to split some 'rounds' in the campground.
He used a $5 chinese knock off (I have since bought him a Camillus Muskrat) and a very dull hardware store axe.
If the stuff he used costed 25 bucks it was alot.

If you look closely you can see the wedges. He started the split with the hatchet and used his petit baton. Then worked his way down the log setting the wedges and ended with a couple of big whacks.
The first photo is just after impact, you can see the wedges bouncing around.
He split a bunch of knotty wood like that.

You can't buy safety.
Throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away.
It is your knowlege base that gets you by, not what you buy.

I just don't understand what is so important about prying in the woods.
I asked once before either here or in the general forum:
"What have you had to pry in the woods?"
For real, as in BTDT or I wouldn't be here had to.
Not 'if' or 'could' .....had to as in hypothermia had to...no food had to...not get home had to.
I think there were 2 had to's, one was a finger stuck in the car door.

Now for me, I'd take the three specialists any day. I guess I'm a team work kind of guy.
Now I'm not saying that one knife is wrong, to each his own.
Take that one knife as long as it can sharpen a pencil and thin slice a tomato. (two tests for using a knife like a knife )

My tools may not be the best that money can buy (BTW what is best? Like, how long is a piece of string?) but they will do the job they are intended for.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I withdraw my comment about avoiding flamewars.

Popcorn, anyone?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I don't mean to pry but....

Funny stuff.


For the last year, I have been teaching adults in Scout how to split (that's split, not cut) wood utilizing only a saw -- so they can pass the technique along.

More than one way to "skin a cat."

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So, by that logic, you would think that ...

In regards to price it is assumed that you are comparing similar knives, you take what you want a knife to do and buy one for $300 vs $100 and compare them, not radically different knives.

"What have you had to pry in the woods?"

When chopping thick woods, efficiency can be greater if you can leverage the blade sideways to clear the wood, this has a many to one effect on chopping time. It also distributes the load over more muscle groups which is usually a good thing for several reasons.

Usually most chopping blades can do this by default as if they are thick enough to get enough weight and move fluidly in the wood, they are thick enough to handle any lateral forces you could apply to them. There are a few exceptions such as some of the spine-soft bolos.

In general it gives you one more tool you can use, there is never a "need" to do it, in that you can't get by without it, just like you don't "need" a knife at all, it just again gives you another tool. As you get better you "need" less tools, really experienced choppers for example won't do the blade leveraging as their hit placement is perfect enough that it isn't necessary.

-Cliff

 

[allenC]

"In regards to price it is assumed that you are comparing similar knives, you take what you want a knife to do and buy one for $300 vs $100 and compare them, not radically different knives."

I agree.
That is why I named the Sebenza, the Manix, the Chinook II, and the Presidio.
I think that all four of them would make a very good, and very strong, survival folder--thus the comparison.
The intended use, for my comparison, would be wilderness survival itself.


But my point is this:
What makes some folks believe that a $100.00 knife would fail, or fall apart, or break, easier than a $300.00 knife?
Any task that would cause the Manix to fail would, I'm sure, also cause the Sebenza to fail.
And any task that would cause the BK&T #BK9 to fail would also, I'm sure, cause the CR Sable to fail.
A more expensive MSRP does not equate to more survivability of the knife.


Allen.

 

[skammer]

Ha ha Allen,

You do sound like a man without rebuttal. But seriously Allen you reading comprehension is much to be desired.

You should take a course Allen . It sounds like you will learn A LOT about the subject of survival.

Skam

 

[skammer]

I don't mean to pry but....
This young scout wanted to split some 'rounds' in the campground.
He used a $5 chinese knock off (I have since bought him a Camillus Muskrat) and a very dull hardware store axe.

ITs not just about splitting nearly any blade can accomplish this. IT is about prying apart a 6 foot log is the issue here.

Skam

 

[featherstone45]

IMHO It all comes down to choice...As for me, I would be happy just to have a decent blade with me in a survival situation, a 100 dollar blade or a 300 dollar blade. IMHO Its all about making due with what you have.

Now givin a choice I will be mighty happy to have one of my Fehrman Final Judgements with me..

But like I said, be happy if you have 3- 100 dollar blades, or 1- 300 dollar blade

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What makes some folks believe that a $100.00 knife would fail, or fall apart, or break, easier than a $300.00 knife?

Probably they broke a bunch of one and not the other and they want a high level of durability for their style of use.

Any task that would cause the Manix to fail would, I'm sure, also cause the Sebenza to fail.

The Sebenza's lock is unstable under torques and the blade and especially the edge are far more fragile.

The Manix is ground from thicker stock and the edge grind on the Sebenza's dips down to as low as 0.010" with no support from the high hollow grind.

I could take my manix for example and easily chop down and limb out a small fir tree (2-4") for shelter poles, fire or walking stick.

The Sebenza is too light to do this effectively and if the edge hit a hard knot, or limb the wrong way it could blow out.

Similar issues with batoning, or working around heavy bone, or digging/prying, etc. .

And any task that would cause the BK&T #BK9 to fail would also, I'm sure, cause the CR Sable to fail.

The BK9 is fairly weak laterally, I snapped one in half with no real effort, you could walk on a Sable. I watched a 220 lbs guy walk on a GB and bounce up and down. Reeve uses a massive thick wedge grind the knives are really strong pry bar wise.

I'd rather have the BK9 for wood craft/utility though, I just would not load it that way. It cuts better, is more durable edge wise, and has more reach and a more ergonomic handle. I would pick it even if the Sable was cheaper. However for an emergency knife it would be a fairly hard choice.

The price would be no influence, I would just have to consider how likely is it that I would remain calm and not over stress the blade, and nor would anyone else I would have with me and weigh this against the other aspects. In reality it is a non issue as I would not consider either of them.

Just get Justin to grind a RD9 with a wood craft edge and now you out chop the BK9, match its cutting ability and have the strength of the Sable. Problem solved.

You also need to consider that there are people out there likely several times as strong as you and what you would consider extreme load they would see as trivial. I grind my edges to suit me, based on how I use them and for what, I don't expect everyone else to have the same preferences.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

Skammer,

"And as for me needing to read the forums more...
Maybe you should check out the date that I joined the forums and compare it to the date that you joined.
You've got a lot of catching up to do."


Oh Allen equating knowledge with a join date of a public forum is ,,, well... juvenille.


"And to address some more of your...eh, bizarre remarks."

I can't wait he he.



"You said:
"NO FOLDER IS A SURVIVAL BLADE PERIOD"

And this:
"A folder is not part of this scenario as far as I am concerned because its nearly useless. As far as I am aware there isn't a folder I can't snap at a pivot point prying it in short order. Utterly useless."

And this little gem:
"The ultimate test for a blade is wedging it into a log and prying it apart.""



Well Allen you sure can point out issues but not say anything about them I stand buy everything I say from experience. What is your reasons?

"I believe that you must be rather young or maybe just very inexperienced when it comes to wilderness survival.
Actually you seem rather naive about knife usage altogether.
If you think that a folder is "utterly useless", you have shown everyone here just how limited your skills are.
The very fact that you think that you need a fixed-blade that can pry logs apart to survive tells me that you don't know much about wilderness survival at all."



This a fact allen? What long list of advantages does a folder have over a fixed blade Allen, please tell I am in need or sorting out here. Other than slicing, whittling and very carefull splitting a folder is "nearly" useless, oops Allen I did say "nearly" missed that one huh. Anyone who has half a brain knows this Allen :yawn: .

I guess its my youth Allen as you say and my military pension and years of teaching the subjest to dozens of groups.

"You might find this hard to believe, but there are primitive peoples all around the world, living right now in every type of climate, who survive every day with far less of a blade than a Buck 110."


Yes, I do find it hard to believe as I have lived with aboriginal people (have you ALLEN?) and they had nasty pieces of steel they used everyday. That beign so, they are also savy enough to realize there was better blades out there and traded for them at any chance they got.


Anyway, I do encourage you to stick around the forums so that you can learn.

Well , thanks Allen I encourage you to take reading comprehension 101 so you can understand what is in the history and present of this forum as you clearly have a learning disability LMAO.

BTW, you mentioned "your students"?
Please tell me that you're not passing along you great wisdom and "skills" to others, are you?!?

I pass on knowledge and experience as to what works and what doesn't. Please elaborate on your expetensive experience in the Survival subject which apparently you must have in order to throw accusations like you do.

Unlike you I am willing to learn so now is the time to set me straight. Give me a list of all your important knowledge you feel I should know. I wait with eagerness.

Skam

 

[allenC]

"IT is about prying apart a 6 foot log is the issue here"

So you recommend to your students to use their knives to pry apart 6' logs...I wonder what advice you give them after they break their knife?

"What long list of advantages does a folder have over a fixed blade Allen, please tell I am in need or sorting out here. Other than slicing, whittling and very carefull splitting a folder is "nearly" useless, oops Allen I did say "nearly" missed that one huh. Anyone who has half a brain knows this Allen"

Yes, you did say "nearly useless".
And then you followed that remark with the sentence (if you can call it that) "Utterly useless".
Make up your mind--are folders "nearly useless" or "utterly useless"?
And you think I'm the one who needs a course in Reading Comprehension...


Anyway, there are some advantages that a folder has over a large, log-splitting, fixed-blade, of the type you seem to prefer...

Weight: anyone who hikes and backpacks will tell you, weight is a major concern; more gear equals less food and water, and less miles per day.

Ease of performing detailed work (and wilderness survival is really all about the detailed work): stuff like skinning animals, removing splinters and ticks, picking birdshot out of the bird, trimming moleskin, notching belts, carving trap notches, removing lures and hooks from a fish, notching a fire board, separating the edible parts of a plant from the non-edible parts, carving improvised fishing hooks, etc...

Portability: we cannot pick and choose when we might find ourselves in a survival situation, and to be sure, the folder is the knife that you most likely have on you when TSHTF.

Concealment: There are times when you might not want to actually show everybody that you have a knife--a folder is easier to conceal.

Improvision: You might find yourself without ANY knife. So having the skills to use, and survive, with a small blade is very important since it's much easier to improvise a small knife than it is to improvise a large log-splitting knife.
If you only train with a large fixed-blade, you're going to be in for a rude awakening if you find yourself with no blade.

I could go on, but really, why bother...
After all, a person with your survival knowledge already knows all of this, right?

Allen.

 

[LeeBower]

I would take 3 just because I have lost my knife in the field, that was the last time I only packed 1 knife...

 

[bishop85gt]

I would say three for $300. Hey you can buy some good knives for $100!!!

 

[skammer]

"If you only train with a large fixed-blade, you're going to be in for a rude awakening if you find yourself with no blade.

I could go on, but really, why bother...
After all, a person with you survival knowledge already knows all of this, right?

Allen"

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

This bores me. I never said a blade is madatory anytime. I teach mostly to not use a blade actually and only demonstrate how usefull a quality blade is. Again assumptions Allen.

Yes, you could go on Allen.

Yes, a person of survival knowledge like myself does know you could go on and on and on and on. LMAO

Have some humor and smile Allen.

Skam