SURVIVAL vs Campng/Treckng/Hntng/Outdrs

N

NuclearBossHog

Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
78
I always read these articles in the main forum about what the best survival this or that is, and I am dumbfounded. Almost always people are talking more about Backpacking/Mountaineering/Trecking/Hunting/Camping equipment.

I have trecked and camped mostly in south american arid forests(Argentina and Peru) and rain forests (Argentina and Brazil). Every time I did, I was PREPARED! I always carried an SAK/Leatherman plus a large blade, ie machete/hatchet or large 8-10 inch blade. I also carried a camp saw usually. Among other things as well.

SURVIVAL to me is basically being cought with your pants down, ie. with what you have on you at the time. Am I wrong in this type of thinking. I am not sure I understand how someone can carry around a huge survival knife. My daily carry is a small folder or Leatherman and that is all, I would be arrested if I carried a machete or hatchet with me everywhere I went. So if the proverbial crap hits the fan, I am not likely to have anything more than a small folder, that would be survival.

Based on this, what is it that you have on you in the event you need to survive. Let's say your driving across the US and you get cought in a backroad the forests of the rockies in the middle of a blizzard. You car breaks down. What is in your car and on you to help you survive this? That is what I consider survival, but maybe I am missing the point.:thumbup:

Sorry if this has been discussed azillion times in the past.
 
It's difficult to say.

In this forum, at least, the title is "Wilderness and Survival Skills." Not just survival, so you'll see a great deal of interesting and informative posting on all sorts of wilderness skills, from outdoor cooking, primative technology, hiking, measurement techniques, navigation, etc.

You'll also find a lot--maybe most--that crosses over.

Additionally, outdoor activities from hiking, camping, hunting, fishing, etc., are the closest (and safest) ways to learn skills that can be used in a survival setting. It's not only a reasonable way to train... it's a fun way.

Third, you're right: survival can happen anywhere, at anytime. I'm not a big proponent of learning to survive based on your gear, but rather learning to survive when you have nothing but what you can forage, cannibalize, scrap, or rework. That way, when you have gear, you're already a step ahead.

But in most urbanized settings (and by that, I'm assuming a paved road), you're probably not far off from a cell tower... and a cell phone and a credit card are all most Americans, Canadians, Europeans, and Australians need.

But in each of those locations, there are indeed places where the most help a cell phone will give you is using the battery terminals to start a fire, and your credit card to sharpen into a makeshift knife. And where are those locations? Basically, the same environments people hunt in, fish in, camp in, and hike through.

I'm not sure I got all the questions you raised in your post, but my suggestion is that survival is one part of a whole network of other parts. It's tough to talk about one and not ask hard questions about the others.

For what that's worth...
 
Seriously offtopic but i have to ask.
Watchful:
Have you actually used cell phone batteris to start a fire?
I've always presumed that cell phone batteries do not have enough power to make sparkles.
If it works, that gives me atleast one reason to carrycell phone with me in the wilderness..
 
No, I haven't... but if it's all I had, I'm gonna try it.

But based on your phone manufacture, you might be able to get enough of a charge to ignite steel wool.

Thanks for the idea, Tuk: I think I've actually got a charged, spare battery for a phone I no longer have. And some steel wool. I'll try it this spring when my fire pit thaws out (I've got it wrapped in poly for the winter).

Who knows? If I still remember about this come springtime, I'll try it and post any interesting results.

Edited to add: By the way... your first post? Welcome!!!
 
lithium batteries will start a fire:D

But be very careful, because they can have explosive results:eek:

I will look forward to reading past topics and new topics in here.
 
NuclearBossHog said:
Almost always people are talking more about Backpacking/Mountaineering/Trecking/Hunting/Camping equipment.
Click to expand...

The majority of wilderness survival situations result from those types of activies. Usually something goes wrong such as people get lost or injured and it turns from recreation to survival. There are few situations where you can't prepare, and in many cases just letting someone responsible know exactly where you are going and when you are going to be back would save most people as well as learning just to not make very risky decisions based on the fact it is unlikely something will go wrong. If a thousand people a year make those decisions (that ice has to be safe), it isn't unlikely any more that rare things will happen to at least one of them.

Generally none of these concerns seem real until it happens to you at least once and you realize how lucky you were to have survived and just how idiotic it is to take such chances when the consequences can be so severe. When I was about fifteen or so I went off for a hike a few miles away from where I lived and didn't tell anyone anything specific (just going out). I was walking along the top of a cliff overlooking the ocean and realized I had never explored the beach below. The grade was not that severe so I decided to walk down, however the soil was loose and rocky and I was wearing low traction sneakers and quickly lost my footing and took a header down the incline.

I didn't roll very far just a few feet, before I smacked into a little plateau with a tree which I managed to grab a hold to. After I regained my composure and very carefully walked back up I realized just how lucky I was and just how stupid it was that no one knew where I was and that no one would think to look for me here. Even if I didn't get severely injured in the roll, I could have been knocked out or stunned, or suffered a broken leg or any number of injuries which would have made dealing with the tide on the beach problematic plus I had no way to deal with significant bleeding and was not dressed to spend the night there in the cold and possibly wet.

I actually carry my felling axe in the trunk of my car, I doubt I will ever have to use it, as the chance of me getting broke down while driving across the island and not being able to just get out of it with a cell phone is highly unlikely, and I would never drive in blizzard conditions anyway, but it has to be stored somewhere and that is more useful than the basement.

-Cliff
 
NBH I have to agree with you. To me a survival scenario developes when the unforeseen happens like a plane crash, heli skiing gone to hell, etc. In my small daypack I carry a few itmes that would suffice to get me through a night in the woods, not WWIII. If I'm prepared with those items it isn't survival it is just a cold night with a little less sleep. I really don't even try to prepare for the worst case scenario every time I walk out the front door. I think my outdoor skills are pretty good and I can improvise and I'm comfortable being in the bush. I hope I'm right.
 
You asked about gear in the motor vehicle.

It's Winter here. Routine to have blowing and drifting snow across rural roads and wind chills below 10f.

sleeping bag
blankets (2)
flashlights (2C MiniMag and 3 AA LED)
fire-building kit
snow shovel
intrenching tool
fixed prunning saw
8' x 10' poly tarps, 2
whistle
mirror
Blastmatch
matches
tinder
fire-starters, 2
surplus "Ka-Bar"
windshield breaking tool
hand axe
paracord - 100'

Clothing kit: shoepaks; socks; wind pants; shell parka (hooded); gloves; 300 wt fleece jacket; stocking cap; scarf

food
water

Some of these items have been used for others when I came on accident scenes.
 
that is a very good kit for a car. I should make one up like that. I have jackets, boots, machetes, leatherman waves and firestarters in all my cars, but nothing amore elaborate than that.
 
I carry the following in two plastic footlockers kept in the back of my truck:

UMBRELLA, FLASHLIGHT, EXTRA BATTERIES,
WATCH CAP, GLOVES, FIRST AID KIT, JUMPER CABLES, FLARES, BECKER BRUTE,
DIAMOND STONE, OVERCOAT, TOOLS, TIRE REPAIR KIT, WATER BAG, BOOTS, ROPE HOIST, LARGE MIRROR, LARGE LEAF BAG, FAN BELT, SNARE WIRE (80’), SNARELOCKS, AXE, SNARE MANUAL, SMALL TACKLEBOX, SLEEPING PAD, FISHING POLE, CAMPSAW,
COFFEE POT, SM SLEEPING BAG, DOG BOWLS,
SHOVEL, 8x10 POLY TARP, KIBBLE (6C), CAN DOGFOOD (4), WATER (2 GAL), CAN STEW (2),
CAN VEGGIES (4), COFFEE (1 LB),
COFFEE BAGS (4), COLEMAN STOVE w/ HEATDRUM,
COFFEE CUP, UTENSIL KIT LARGE COOLER,
MESS KIT, MRE’S (3), LG SLEEPING BAG, .22 RIFLE, .22 LR (200 ROUNDS)


In addition, I keep a BOB with:

KNAPSACK W/FANNY PACK, WATER BOTTLE,
IBUPROPHEN, STERNO (4),
ASPIRIN, COMPASS,
IMMODIUM, BIC LIGHTERS,
ACTIFED, W.P. MATCHES,
CHAPSTICK, S.A. MATCHES,
CHEM HANDWARMER , CANDLES (4),
SMALL SUNSCREEN , PARACORD & PULLEY,
BOULLION CUBES, POTABLE AQUA,
SM BINOCULARS, 3# COFFEE CAN,
THERMAL SOCKS, TRIOX BAR,
WOOL SWEATER, LARGE SPORK,
TRICK CANDLES, INSULATED HOOD,
SURGICAL TUBING (4’), 4” MORA KNIFE, DUSTMASKS , SMALL FM RADIO,
NRA SURVIVAL KIT

Wow, that cut and paste was a mess, but you get the idea.:o
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The majority of wilderness survival situations result from those types of activies. ....

-Cliff
Click to expand...


Actuall NOT true. Those folks tend to be more prepared. The majority of SAR misions are walkers, or really day hikers, followed closely by folks found AWAY from their vehicle.

Like the couple finally found this last hunting season. The pair were in the Uintas on a short (3-5mile) hiking trail. They were actually stopped by a ranger and warned they were under prepaired. The search ran for more than a week with no results.

Or the couple down on the Escalante. Unprepared. Car broke. both died.

Usually, officials find the car after two or three days. Usually find the bodies after five days. Been dead one or two days...

These are a couple of actual, anecdotal examples that the numbers STRONGLY support.
 
Actually, I don't think Cliff said "The majority of wilderness survival situations result from all those types of activities."

I read it as "The majority of wilderness survival situations result from inexperience with those activities."

In other words, your first example is a prime one: folks not prepared trying to undergo an arduous hike with inadequate preparation. Had they been more familiar with the realities of hiking, they'd have been fine. If I'm right on what Cliff meant, that supports his claim.

Your second story is a classic "vehicle incident:" car breakdown, plane crash, etc. Hard to say with the light detail you provided, but I would think those weren't as common as the "I thought the outdoors would have been easier" mentality.

So I spent a large amount of time (three minutes) just now doing extensive research (Google), and couldn't find any single body of statistics on this. I saw one claim that supports a car breakdown as the leading driver behind survival situations, but this wasn't supported with any evidence, cites, or followup... and it was on a website advertising some well-known survival videos.

It'd be interesting to see the numbers. Not necessarily meaningful or conclusive, since there's few objective standards as to what constitutes survival (as not all survival situations are SAR situations), but interesting nonetheless.
 
Inexperience has nothing to do with most survival situations, If you fall though the ice on a lake in winter or somthing like cliff said is what mosty happens. this isnt The Edge where you crash and nobodys hurt and we all have good boots and etc on. The truth is anyone can survive something like what happened in the edge, its the quick-nothing you can do about it type of senarios that kill.
 
I agree with NuclearBossHog that many survival situation do happen suddenly and you use only what you have on you and nothing else. And I also agree that if you take too many things, you most likely will not have it with yourself when you need it because it is too heavy or bulky to be with you all the time. Therefore I usually have most important items on me, except when I am at home, and I take them automatically with my keys.
I think this is where you come to the idea of having separate survival kits:
Keychain or wallet with some kit because you take them automatically almost every time you leave your home;
PSK with minimum kit, but some of it you do not have on your keychain;
Large bug-out bag or backpack in wilderness with the rest of your kit.
Yes, some items repeat, but it makes sure you have most important tools with you all the time, even if you have to get down to a supermarket.
I also try to follow the rule "proper preparation prevents piss poor performance". In the past, I used to collect my kit day before I go for hiking or in th emonring of the day of hiking, but now I prepare immediately after I come back from hiking. I have my backpack always ready. This way I do not forget meths, firesteel, knife, paracord (I got into habit of doing some bushcraft things while breaking for lunch, like making fire using bow drill), extra food and other very small items and I do not forget to take out unnecessary items. Plus, this way I avoid the hassle of preparing the kit day before - for some reason it is always very busy day (guess, it is Murphy's law) and I can hit the tracks whenever I have some free time, so I get to countryside more often.
But I still need to get into habit of carrying PSK not in my backpack, but somewhere else - this way I will have PSK if I lose my backpack, and vice versa.
 
SubaruSTi said:
Inexperience has nothing to do with most survival situations, If you fall though the ice on a lake in winter or somthing like cliff said is what mosty happens. this isnt The Edge where you crash and nobodys hurt and we all have good boots and etc on. The truth is anyone can survive something like what happened in the edge, its the quick-nothing you can do about it type of senarios that kill.
Click to expand...

I believe one could fairly argue that inexperience gets folks in these "sudden emergency" situations in the first place.

I know from experience (hauling victims out) that ice in small lakes can be thin in spots due to submerged springs. I stay away from such situations.

I know from experience that rushing streams have surprising force. I got my pack off and didn't drown. Won't be in that situation again.

The trouble with "learning by experince" is that the test does not come after lessons - the test is the lesson - if you survive and have any sense.

Hopefully, some can learn by the experience of others.
 
Dang it! I have to agree with Cliff on this one. Around here most people who get in trouble in the woods head there on purpose. That whole nature thing... They have their daypack with wine and brie but they left their common sense at home. That is if they had any to begin with. Most make it out in a day or two, not all though. The live ones make the front page of the local fish wrapper and complain that cell phone coverage was inadequate or the trails should have been marked better. The rest end up as fertilizer and the lawyers start circling.
 
This is a great discussion. More realistic then most. Keep it up good stuff.

For me I just carry my assault rifle and take whatever I need from whomever I need to take it from.:D

seriously though, I always have several basic items near me. multi tool is an essential, I carry about a dozen protein and power bars along with several bottles of water in my vehicles, I also have a large blade in every vehicle along with another leatherman. I have either mtches, fire-starters or lighters in all my vehicles as well as ropes. I have medical kits and multi layer clothing including waterproof stuff.

But for getting cought with barely whats on me, if I am walking or away from my vehicle, it would still be a leatherman, one folder and one fixed blade along with matches.
 
Norad, that is no where near enough coffee, you ought to be ashamed :D

I'm surprised that people dont list the inch diameter salami that come in plastic wrapping. Whats a better excuse to eat something that tastes like heaven because its 65% fat than a survival situation? :)

Seriously I would look to foods that have a lot more fat in them than pure protein bars. Granted protein is essential for repair and maintenance but it offers little in the way of energy as your body values it building capabilites too much, in fact it costs you calories to digest it. If you are in a middle of nowhere situation high fat/carb foods are the way to go.
 
Watchful said:
Actually, I don't think Cliff said "The majority of wilderness survival situations result from all those types of activities."

I read it as "The majority of wilderness survival situations result from inexperience with those activities."
Click to expand...

Yeah, people failing to prepare when they could have, were you forced into the car with no gear and suddenly drove to an enviroment you were unfamiliar with and stranded - probably not happening very often. How many people are as prepared as Thomas noted, why not, that is where you should start.

A group of guys in a car here got stranded during a heavy snowstorm, pulled over, the roads were closed and they died from CO. They were not prepared for the weather, never expected to have to get out and walk, and didn't realize about the danger of CO from exhaust. It would not have taken much preperation to have prevented that completely.

I spent some time in Windsor awhile back and they are more localized than we are here and it isn't uncommon for S&R operations there, but none of them are from people randomally dropped into the woods with no gear, they are all from people who chose to go in there, were not familiar, or were young, etc. .

Planes do crash of course and people do get kidnapped and excape into unknown situations, but these are rare, well around here anyway, which is fairly rural, and a *lot* of people spend a lot of time in the woods hiking, hunting, fishing, etc. .

Statistics would be interesting, I would be really surprised if the majoirty, or even signficant amount of S&R situations happened on individuals who had no ability to prepare for the situation vs simply didn't chose to.

-Cliff
 
as far as gear in the truck:
3 wool blankets
sleeping pad
2 tarps
paracord and other tie downs
first aid
several bottles of water
1# of dark chocolate
1# of mixed nuts
field boots
extra clothes including goretex and vinyl rain gear
fluids and repair items for the truck including hand tools
snow shovel, landscapers spade and glock folding shovel
jumper cables
hatchet
hi lift jack
tow strap and recovery items
air compressor
work gloves
cb
folding saw
1911 and extra ammo
bic lighters and other bits and pieces

i also always carry a day pack with:
camp blade
sak
nalgene and cup
homemade stove
hand dipped matches
doan mag block
treated cotton
tarp
space blanket
paracord
long undies
hat/mittens
first aid
water bladder and treatment
saw blade
compass
personal items (glasses, contacts, lip balm etc.)
mora
sunscreen
xtra socks
sas survival handbook (pocket version)

the list is unorganized and i probably missed a few things, but you get the idea. i've driven in blizzard conditions and i've spent the night in my vehicle more than once. this stuff all resides in tha xtra cab of my truck, and i don't think of it much except to rotate clothes, food, and water. i've used a few of the items and either myself or other parties were always happy they were there.

there are alot of streams and rivers near here that swell and flood the roads. add ice on the roads and it wouldn't be difficult to slide or be pushed (by another out of control car) into one. a thought i had the other day is if i were about to be ditched in a river or creek and had to exit the vehicle what would i grab?? my day pack always rides 'shotgun' and contains items that would be beneficial in that sort of scenario.

i've taken what most would consider unprepared day hikes, though i feel confident in my ability to make an unexpected overnight stay a comfortable one.
 
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