SURVIVAL vs Campng/Treckng/Hntng/Outdrs

Protactical, that's a great point!

All disaster experts will tell you that life-threatening situations usually stem from a series of individual problems... each easy to deal with on their own, actually, but when they occur at one time... bad.

I like that... the "several disasters" rule.
 
Aw shucks...

And the bad part is the guy in that situation ends up looking like a complete idiot. His car breaks down, or he gets slightly turned around on a trail, and all that's left is a body. "how could he be so stupid?". We are all a lot smarter than that, nothing to learn from that experience.
 
Cliff wrote:

On a interesting note it would be interesting to see what is the survival rate for people who have taken a survival course or even read a book, however the number of those people are likely very low. Or who tends to have a stronger will and general ability to survive; women vs men, or young (17-25) vs experienced (25-45) vs older (45-65).

I would like to see some of those statistics myself. I believe that Gonzales spoke to that briefly in his book Deep Survival. IIRC he stated that statistics show that children between 3 and 6 years old have a higher survival rate in SAR situations than persons older. Also that children between 7 and 12 had the lowest survival rate. Again, IIRC, his reasons were that the 3 to 6 year olds are self centered and tend to do what it takes to see to their creature comforts. If they are cold they burrow into the leaves or crawl into a hollow log, if they are tired they sit down and rest, they don't push themselves beyond their limits like older people will. Also they don't really have a sence of needing to get somewhere or knowing there is somewhere to get to. Therefore they don't panic like older children or adults do when they realize they are lost. A young child always knows where they are. Right here! It is everything else that is lost. Kinda reminds me of Buckaroo Bonzai; " Whereever you go, there you are!"
I also remember reading years ago about sailors left adrift at sea during WWII from torpedoed ships. Seems the military did a study that indicated that all things being equal, middle and older aged married men with children faired best with a higher survival rate that more physically fit younger men. The reason given was that they had something to live for, wife and family where the younger men did not have that emotional bond and safety net to hang onto. Wonder if there are any other studies out there along these llines. Great thread!
Oldsalt
 
Gonzales also said the 3-6 year old children some times hide from SAR personel. Its been awhile since I read the book so I do not remember what the reason was.
 
IIRC, being young kids they become fearful. I believe the examples Gonzales used was a child that hid from rescuers at night fearing the head lamps. Thinking they were monsters coming for him. Another hid because he heard the search dogs and thought they were cayotes coming to eat him. Guess there are always pluses and minuses for each age group.
I believe that Gonzales also talked about the cumulative afect of a number of little mistakes or errors in judgement, none of which was that serious in itself, but taken together led to disaster.
I just finished Joe Simpsons "Into the Void". At the end of the book he says that it took his partner to point out their mistake or mistakes. The main one was not taking enough fuel to allow them to melt enough water to stay adequately hydrated. Also, since they used they last of their fuel while still on the peak they could not afford another night on the mountain, so they pushed themselves to get off in one day. This lead them to take risks and make mistakes they might not have done so otherwise.
Good read.
Good Thread.
Oldsalt.
 
oldsalt-

i haven't read gonzalez's book, although i'm hoping to shortly. i've read quite a bit on the subject though, and have seen stories and statistics like that before. young children faring better, having something to live for, etc.

i think impromtu camping is a good way to practice survival skills. usually, you don't have everything you'd like to, and you have to improvise. gradually you become more comfortable doing without and more confident that you don't need this or that to make it through the night. this does alot to help prevent stress and panic which are big no-nos in an unexpected stay somewhere.
 
grobe said:
i've always thought that shelter/fire go hand in hand. if it's 30F and there's a 20mph wind with sleet/and freezing rain....i'm not sure being huddled over a small fire with no wind/rain protection would do much good. you'd probably be losing more body heat and dropping your core temp faster than the fire could replace it.


They do to a point but not always. In your scenario above absolutely.:thumbup: .

In desert conditions during the day its shelter first with water and fire third if at all.

In horridly dry cold conditons with no wind you will still freeze to death in a shelter eventually and need a secondary heat source to maintain core temp.

Many conditions are a combination and shelter and fire are equally important such as cool and wet conditions. You will feeze with wet clothing without a fire to warm you but keeping dry is also key (the old chicken and egg dilemma).

While both fire and shelter are very important neither is a priority over the other all the time.

It is entirely situational and must be adapted to at that time.

Skam
 
okay, i've not read every post in this thread, but I'll tell you; one thing I ALWAYS carry in my little survival/handy-stuff kit is a large piece of clear plastic 2m x 2m. It can be used as an emergency shelter to keep off rain, as a wrap around to retain extra bidy warmth, as a ground sheet in the snow, to evaporate water from vegetation in the desert, and as the basis for a raft or pack-float. and it will cost you about 50 cents.. and so can be lost and replaced with no grief :)
I've used a sheet for most of the above purposes, but the most vivid recollection I have of using one of these sheets was in what i thought was an unlikely situation; i had to shelter in some garbage on the steets of jo'burg (south africa) one very chilly winters night whilst an armed gang was looking for me (my car had broken down and I was waiting for reinforcements before i set about fixing the problem). It was such an unforeseen scenario, but I was very thankful that i'd included that little plastic sheet in my pouch!
 
I don't recall if it was in Gonzales' book but another reason kids hide from rescuers is that the rescuers are "strangers" and kids are told to stay away from strangers.
 
Into the Void is a great book, an oldie but a goodie. If you want to read something as crazy by actually famous climbers, track down the mess over the Breach wall by Henry Barber. Rob Taylor wrote "The Breach", and Henry wrote "On The Edge".

One of the things that gets me about this event is it goes to show how disaster hits some people and completely bypasses other, almost no mater how reckless they are. Henry Barber is certainly an example of an untouchable, but the guy who eventually climbed the Breach Wall, Reinhold Messner, is an Uber untouchable. I'd pay a ton to know how the untouchables do it. It's great to focus on disaster, but I'd love to be one of those guys who skates from success to success.
 
Buckaroo661 said:
I don't recall if it was in Gonzales' book but another reason kids hide from rescuers is that the rescuers are "strangers" and kids are told to stay away from strangers.

This is very true and sad, when actually most of the crimes against children are by people they know.

Children also dont call out to searchers for a real fear of punishment by their parents for getting lost.

Skam
 
skammer said:
This is very true and sad, when actually most of the crimes against children are by people they know.

Children also dont call out to searchers for a real fear of punishment by their parents for getting lost.

Skam

Something else to teach the kids I guess, especially the youngsters of those of us into Wilderness Survival, what to do if you're lost in the woods.
 
Protactical, I heartily agree. Into the void is a gret book on the subject. Also along the same line is the great book (not the movie) Seven Years in Tibet by Henrich Harrer.

and in a small response to the original question posted about why hunting/fishing/backpacking, etc. is on a survival forum, It seems to a southern boy anyway self-explanatory:
these people spend more time in the outdoors in the places where wildernes survival skills are going to be life-saving. also, I don't know much about urban suvival other than what i learn by reading this forum (and learn alot from you guys), but I will say this: you want to enhance your "situational awareness" skills? try walking through the woods in a heavily hunted area for whitetail, and you will learn quickly or you wont eat :)
 
Agreed. And hunting is something where one can wander around aimlessly looking for game. I mean the hunting strategy better have a pretty clearly laid out plan, but unlike backpacking which can be like following the Yellow Brick Road, hunting can involve working back and forth in some pretty heavy cover. It's not impossible to get turned around. I guess I'm old school I love the idea of GPS, just waiting for the prices to come down a little more, I can see getting lost in the woods. In reality most of my hunting is on farms and on land I've known for decades, but I do like driving up north and just getting out and looking around too.
 
I like electronics too. I am a little ornery about people's dependence on them though. If i had the money (that I weren't saving for a new REM 700 .308, or a spyderco ...)or oh crap who am I kidding, I will never get a GPS. :)

Seriously though, I look at backpacker magazines and people are always talking about having a cell or gps in the woods for emergencies. What a laugh. They claim they "always" secure them where they won't get broken. Obviously these people have never took a tumble down a hill backwards to know what can shake loose (including your bladder)

I carry a compass. Besides being small enough to lock away in a pocket, if the above situation shakes it out, I still have the confidence that I am at least an adequate woodsman, and I can I will find my way out. If I absoloutely cannot orient myself I have the survival skills to stay put and take care of myself.
 
If more people would read "Touching the Void" as you suggested they might get the idea how badly things can go wrong even when you think you are prepared and have friends to help you out. I mean sometimes your friends have their own S%^t to deal with, they will be of no help to you.

By the way protactical, have you read his follow up book, "This Game of Ghosts"?

It is centered on all of the friends he has lost over the years in climbing accidents, and his childhood mistakes which lead into adult mistakes:D

There is one particularly interesting story about him and his brother being chased by a Cobra( I think ) in India as little boys.
 
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