SURVIVAL vs Campng/Treckng/Hntng/Outdrs

NuclearBossHog said:
I always read these articles in the main forum about what the best survival this or that is, and I am dumbfounded. Almost always people are talking more about Backpacking/Mountaineering/Trecking/Hunting/Camping equipment.

I have trecked and camped mostly in south american arid forests(Argentina and Peru) and rain forests (Argentina and Brazil). Every time I did, I was PREPARED! I always carried an SAK/Leatherman plus a large blade, ie machete/hatchet or large 8-10 inch blade. I also carried a camp saw usually. Among other things as well.

SURVIVAL to me is basically being cought with your pants down, ie. with what you have on you at the time. Am I wrong in this type of thinking. I am not sure I understand how someone can carry around a huge survival knife. My daily carry is a small folder or Leatherman and that is all, I would be arrested if I carried a machete or hatchet with me everywhere I went. So if the proverbial crap hits the fan, I am not likely to have anything more than a small folder, that would be survival.

Based on this, what is it that you have on you in the event you need to survive. Let's say your driving across the US and you get cought in a backroad the forests of the rockies in the middle of a blizzard. You car breaks down. What is in your car and on you to help you survive this? That is what I consider survival, but maybe I am missing the point.:thumbup:

Sorry if this has been discussed azillion times in the past.

I'm a former long haul truck driver. And drove extensively all over the northern US, and southern Canada during the winter months.

The single most important item one can have in such a survival situation in cold weather is a mummy sleeping bag with a low temperature rating, 0 degrees or below. In case ones primary heat source, the truck, dies. This is due to the fact that one already possesses shelter (the truck itself).

The others would be a cell phone, and/or a two way radio with enough power to summon help. The same can apply to an automobile in such climates.

Of course there are also many other items that would make one more comfortable, but not necessarily anymore likely to survive.

Point is every survival situation is different. What one needs to work in a high rise in New York City, or drive a truck cross country is far different than what one would need as a bush pilot in Alaska, or trekking the backcountry.

But one thing that is consistent. No matter what you do, or where you live, you need to have a common sense survival strategy based upon the scenario you are most likely to encounter.

Knives are part of the equation. In most survival scenarios today a small part. Much less than was the case 150 years ago. But there is no doubt that aquiring two of the basics when in an exposed position (warmth and protection from the elements, when these are critical to survival) in most parts of the world are much more easily obtained with the possession and use of a knife....

There is no excuse not to have a good sharp one.
 
I just did some searching, the number of incidents of you are suddenly dumped in the wilderness with no warning is fairly low, for example local to here out of 520 S&R situations at sea :
  • Fishing vessel incidents represented 68% of total SAR incidents, accounting for 18% of the fatalities;
  • Recreational boating represented 17% of total SAR incidents, accounting for 36% of the fatalities;
  • Commercial shipping represented 4% of total SAR incidents, accounting for 0% of the fatalities.
You can turn up a massive amount of info with some simple searches, I scanned though a dozen of the first ones, some had very detailed breakdowns listing just what caused the S&R responce, health, mechanical failure, etc. .

On a interesting note it would be interesting to see what is the survival rate for people who have taken a survival course or even read a book, however the number of those people are likely very low. Or who tends to have a stronger will and general ability to survive; women vs men, or young (17-25) vs experienced (25-45) vs older (45-65).

-Cliff
 
The stats are hard to find, but many of your examples (like mine) especially the brie and wine starts as a lark, walk, etc rather than a hunting, mountaineering, etc trip. Except for stupid people (natural selection in action?) we go prepared.

It's, as mentioned above, not droped in the wilderness, plane wreck, hostage escape, etc, either. It's people going on a day hike, picknik, etc that "get in over their heads."
 
If im in my truck i wouldnt consider it a survival situation. I have good shelter for one. I always cary fishing gear behind the seat incase i see water that looks like fish, I like fishing. I have a good fixed blade knife in the truck and food and water in the glovebox. flairs and lighters and even the push lighter can start a fire easily. I also regularly carry firearms when out of town because im usualy hunting. I think people ask what would be good in a survival situation when thinking about a good knife to take say backpacking because they want to be prepared for the worst case scenario(lost in the woods/what have you).
 
tripletrash said:
If im in my truck i wouldnt consider it a survival situation. I have good shelter for one. I always cary fishing gear behind the seat incase i see water that looks like fish, I like fishing. I have a good fixed blade knife in the truck and food and water in the glovebox. flairs and lighters and even the push lighter can start a fire easily. I also regularly carry firearms when out of town because im usualy hunting. I think people ask what would be good in a survival situation when thinking about a good knife to take say backpacking because they want to be prepared for the worst case scenario(lost in the woods/what have you).

Bud, I respect your opinion, I really do.

But take my word for it, I wasn't talking about loading up the pickup and taking a hunting trip. Best advice is not to get lost to begin with (compass, map, proper planning, GPS). Hell with depending on a knife to save you.

On the other hand driving an 80,000 lb. truck cross country over 100,000 miles a year is a survival situation daily. You get careless etc., good chance somebody aint gonna survive. You make these choices daily.

And especially when one is facing below zero temps, frozen pavement, and is miles and miles away from civilization. Or hazardous cargo, railroad crossings, mountain passes, drivers driving on the wrong side of the road, equipment failure, 3 AM nodding off, high crime areas, etc. I've seen it all.

Remember, if your stuck in one of the many blizzards that roll through the upper midwest yearly, with a truck that doesn't run and inadequate clothing, etc. for a few days, or until they're able to open the roads you're up the creek without a paddle. I've sat in a few of these. Fortunately I was always sensible enough to anticipate the situation and find a cosy place to camp out until conditions improved. Alot of owner operators and others don't have such luxuries. They stop for a day or two, they seriously take the risk of losing their shyt.

The inside of the truck gets as cold as the outside without a source of heat. And that's not even considering an incident where you're off the road and possibly injured.

I fully understand for someone with the choice of when and where to travel, the situation is often far different. Doubtful you would voluntarily enter a blizzard, or deteriorating weather conditions purposefully. Unfortunately only one way to Portland from Chicago. And you've got a schedule to keep.

I wish I could say operating a heavy truck allowed one to place caution first, but unfortunately with dwindling freight rates, and increased competition the drivers that are willing to throw caution to the wind are often those that are the most successful. At least until it catches up with 'em.

That's why I got out of trucking after 10 years and over a million accident free miles. I found my skills weren't appreciated. You see I believe in adequate rest, and good judgement.

Too bad those paying the bills don't always believe in it as well, or have enough experience to know the difference, from the comfort of the golf course or their own bed while I was fighting weather conditions and trying to keep other drivers alive (many of which who seemed to be dying to drive underneath my truck daily).
 
IntheWoods said:
The inside of the truck gets as cold as the outside without a source of heat.

It may not always be a good choice, you have to consider the possibility of some idjit plowing into you especially if you are stuck in a really bad area such as just around a turn.

-Cliff
 
Yep, absolutely.

That's why thinking ahead is such a critical skill.

Sometimes it better to find a safe and secure place to sit until everything blows over, and take the heat from the shipper than it is to risk yourself and the cargo.

Amazing how difficult it sometimes is to convince those sitting comfortably at desks, in a safe environment, of such realities.

Some drivers succumb to the pressure and find themselves in such situations. There often the same ones that fail to carry any survival gear whatsoever.

That's why I always emphasize good judgement as a critical part of survival. At least as much as the gear you're stuck with at the time.

Because the best survival outcome is always the one you avoid facing to begin with.

Other than that, there are definately items that can make your survival more likely depending upon the most likely threat.
 
Inthewoods i did not read any of the preveous poasts and was only refering to the tread starting poast. i drive a nissan frontier. im not a trucker more of a biker but i wouldent call myself that. a knife will save no one no matter who built it or how nice it is. but it may help your ass out.
 
The most frequent survival situations I hear of in Canada, are lost hunters, canoe trippers, hikers and climbers. They get lost, hurt, weathered in, or the canoe capsizes, and gear goes bye-bye. They are all there on purpose. Even when planes go down, these days there is someone out there looking pretty quick. Usually, people are too hurt to go anywhere from the plane, and more often than not, they die. There is usually a good selection of 1st aid & survival gear in bush planes.
For those survival cases where uninjured people die, I would have to say inexperience, sense, and lack of action are the leading cause of death. The nail in the coffin, so to speak, is cold weather, cold water, or both. Oh and avalanches.
I can't remember the last time I heard of someone starving to death or dying of thirst/dehydration in Canada's wilderness. There is the odd bear attack, but very rare.
BTW, I live at the top of Canada's mainland, and we have cell service, in town anyway.
Jim
 
tripletrash said:
Inthewoods i did not read any of the preveous poasts and was only refering to the tread starting poast. i drive a nissan frontier. im not a trucker more of a biker but i wouldent call myself that. a knife will save no one no matter who built it or how nice it is. but it may help your ass out.

Yep, I agree.
 
Jim Craig said:
The most frequent survival situations I hear of in Canada, are lost hunters, canoe trippers, hikers and climbers. They get lost, hurt, weathered in, or the canoe capsizes, and gear goes bye-bye. They are all there on purpose. Even when planes go down, these days there is someone out there looking pretty quick. Usually, people are too hurt to go anywhere from the plane, and more often than not, they die. There is usually a good selection of 1st aid & survival gear in bush planes.
For those survival cases where uninjured people die, I would have to say inexperience, sense, and lack of action are the leading cause of death. The nail in the coffin, so to speak, is cold weather, cold water, or both. Oh and avalanches.
I can't remember the last time I heard of someone starving to death or dying of thirst/dehydration in Canada's wilderness. There is the odd bear attack, but very rare.
BTW, I live at the top of Canada's mainland, and we have cell service, in town anyway.
Jim

Yep, every situation often requires a different survival strategy. But every one also shares commonality.

One cannot minimize basic outdoor skills such as navigation, water acquisition, shelter building, situational awareness, etc.

And the tools that go along with them.

There is no doubt like I pointed out above that the best survival strategy is always the one that avoids such desperate situations in the first place.

That doesn't mean one has to be a wallflower. Just careful, and a conscientious planner. Based upon the circumstances and potential pitfalls of the situation they will most likely face. It's just common sense. Or should be.
 
tripletrash said:
a knife will save no one no matter who built it or how nice it is. but it may help your ass out.

The same is true of any piece of gear or knowledge, it isn't like because you can build a friction fire that you are invunerable to harm. Having the right gear just makes your abilities in general stronger, being in better physical shape does the same thing, as does will power and the ability to handle stress, being lucky doesn't hurt either.

-Cliff
 
There is a whole host of reasons people get lost.

The majority in my experience is they choose an activity which puts them at an increased exposure to risk. Ralston's choice to go climbing and then to go alone exposed him to more risk.

Children wandering, alzheimer patients and people with diminished capacity being the exceptions.

While injury is also a reason SAR gets called out, not always for lost people, its usually people who got turned around and were missed by someone. This is why its important to tell at least one responsible individual where you are going and your return date/time (so they will miss you and report you missing). Time is critical for successfull search outcomes.

Ralston lost his arm because of this lack of simple planning forthought. He would of lost his life if it werent for his employer missing him, I believe.

FOr the record; -30 outside could mean -20 in a vehicle in winter, without a bag for those temps you will die. Best get out and build a fire or find some other heat source. Shelter only goes so far, a heat source is vital. This is why survival books etc.. that preach shelter first 100% is fundamentally flawed in some scenarios.

Skam
 
Even when planes go down, these days there is someone out there looking pretty quick. Usually, people are too hurt to go anywhere from the plane, and more often than not, they die.
FWIW
Back in the early 90's I worked with a gal who was also a volunteer EMT in her NJ neighborhood.
She moved to Alaska to pursue her EMT career. She went to school, had to be jump qualified and medically qualified.
Last I heard, about 2 years after she left was that she loved Alaska, but was driving a cab.
EMT work was too depressing for her. Most of her calls were small plane wrecks and recovering bodies. Not much life saving or care giving.
 
Shelter only goes so far, a heat source is vital. This is why survival books etc.. that preach shelter first 100% is fundamentally flawed in some scenarios.

i've always thought that shelter/fire go hand in hand. if it's 30F and there's a 20mph wind with sleet/and freezing rain....i'm not sure being huddled over a small fire with no wind/rain protection would do much good. you'd probably be losing more body heat and dropping your core temp faster than the fire could replace it.
 
NuclearBossHog said:
ISURVIVAL to me is basically being cought with your pants down, ie. with what you have on you at the time. Am I wrong in this type of thinking. I am not sure I understand how someone can carry around a huge survival knife. My daily carry is a small folder or Leatherman and that is all, I would be arrested if I carried a machete or hatchet with me everywhere I went. So if the proverbial crap hits the fan, I am not likely to have anything more than a small folder, that would be survival.

Many years ago, I went through a training program for primitive cross-cultural living. The course was held in south Texas, near the border. One afternoon, they called all the men in (16 of us), took us as we were 40 miles from the camp along a mostly dry river bed, and dropped us there.

"Your airplane just crashed, and no rescue is going to be able to reach you. fortunately, your pilot was flying the river camp is on, and it's THAT way. See ya when you get there!" (Two staff went with us, with a first aid kit and emergency supplies, but they kept their mouths shut, and their packs closed!)

Just like Hog said, we made do with what we had on us. I had my SAK and a bic lighter. We ate what we could catch - although some of the "city guys" were real slow to recognize "food" when they saw it. We all lost weight, got mad at each other, and generally had a great time.

The temps got below freezing at night, and in the 80s during the day.

Anyway, I think Hog is absolutely right: survival is making do with what you have on you whenever the need arises. Some of the kits listed above would be pure gravy! But you can get by with a lot less, and still do well. :thumbup:
 
"they are all from people who chose to go in there, were not familiar, or were young, etc. . "

Which is where mindset comes into it. You have to have the attitude that you are possibly in this for a long time, and what do you do to ensure you maximize your short, medium, and long term scenarios.

There is a little semi-private forest around here, certainly big enough to get lost in. A few years back, a hunter gets lost and overdue, and on the same day they send out trackers, dogs helicopters etc... Finally locate the guy, who while fit enough looking, looked near death, and said he was glad to have been rescued for he was on his last legs! I mean come on he probably hadn't burned off his breakfast Twinkies, dambdest thing.
 
Protactical said:
" I mean come on he probably hadn't burned off his breakfast Twinkies, dambdest thing.

Ah, the breakfast twinkie. Can we ever actually burn those off?:eek:

True, though. It is a mindset. If you fail to have the "winning mentality" you likely won't win. Or survive. The woods are full of stories of people cutting off their own arms and lasting for days, then getting found or rescued, as well as those that just sit down and figure they're hooped, and die. And then when someone does die, it's often attributed to cold weather, wearing cotton, lack of preparation and equipment, no fire, etc., but I think it's just a lack of trying sometimes. If I walk out foolishly into freeway traffic, I don't think it it the fault of the driver that I get splattered.
Again, the right equipment and knowledge are very important, but if one is not bent on living, chances are, they are done for.
Granted if it's minus 20 and you fell in a river, are lost, and have no gear, you are in a heap of trouble. But if you get lost and it's around freezing temps, and you have a bit of stuff, (eg SAK, lighter, fleece) you really can make it if you try. Even with no gear, survival is quite possible. There may be discomforts, and difficulties, but unless there are some huge contributors, a proper mindset can make the world of difference.
Just my opinion...

Jim
 
grobe said:
if it's 30F and there's a 20mph wind with sleet/and freezing rain....i'm not sure being huddled over a small fire with no wind/rain protection would do much good.

Yes especially since unless you have some kind of chemical accelerant it would be very difficult to keep a fire going in those conditions and near impossible to start one without a shelter.

skammer said:
This is why survival books etc.. that preach shelter first 100% is fundamentally flawed in some scenarios.

Anything so simplistic is problematic, you basically have to access your needs for survival and then determine how to meet it. Shelter is usually fairly high because it complements other aspects like fire building. Like you note though a shelter isn't a source of heat, at best all it can do temperature wise is make the inside as cold as the outside in dead air. If you keep the space inside small and it is a really high wind break you may be able to heat it up with body heat.

-Cliff
 
I think the big problem is the lack of situation specific intelligence. It's the several disasters rule, like your car breaks down, way out there, and, come to think of it, you have no idea which way is out, and since you didn't leave any word, you have no idea when they will start looking for you. Even if you are smart and can find a direction to the main road, maybe you don't know about barriers. So you are forced to guess about whether staying with the car is best or moving. It's too far to take the road back, and these side roads look like they might go in the right direction... Whatever the legitimate description is, the result is you feel forced to make guesses, and you make a wrong one.

Also, it is often hard to face up to how bad the situation is. Let's say you do wait next to your car, maybe the minimum time until someone comes is 2-3 days. So just a few minutes back before the car broke down, you were only 2 hours drive from home. Now you are supposed to wait a minimum of 2-3 days, or maybe the road is just over there a little we seemed to be paralleling it for a while...

Other than my plane crash, all my other potential problems have been in situations like river travel or mountain climbing. Usually in those situations the course of action is totally obvious. Sometimes you can't undertake the evacuation because the weather changed, or someone got hurt, but you can also sometimes actually see the parking lot where your car is, or could if it was clear. where you need to go is usually obvious, though micro stuff like route finding or how to rappel form any point on the face can be problematic.
 
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