Survive GSO 2.7?

[chiral.grolim]

No they don't. They don't make a thing.

S!K is now intimately tied to Millit, the only things they still contract out elsewhere are HT and sheaths. Previously they contracted out steel-cutting (not the steel itself, they bought that from Niagara and kept it in house until shipment to the contractor), bevel-grinding, finishing, HT, handles, fasteners, sheaths.

For comparison, BRKT contracts out the steel, the cutting, the grinding, the HT, they only recently started making sheaths and fasteners, they basically receive a knife (paid for LONG in advance, according to Mike Stewart), bolt on handle scales (for fancy materials, they grind and polish the scales), grind over the already ground bevel, then photograph and ship the knife to a retailer.

Does BRKT make anything?

 

[craytab]

S!K is now intimately tied to Millit, the only things they still contract out elsewhere are HT and sheaths. Previously they contracted out steel-cutting (not the steel itself, they bought that from Niagara and kept it in house until shipment to the contractor), bevel-grinding, finishing, HT, handles, fasteners, sheaths.

For comparison, BRKT contracts out the steel, the cutting, the grinding, the HT, they only recently started making sheaths and fasteners, they basically receive a knife (paid for LONG in advance, according to Mike Stewart), bolt on handle scales (for fancy materials, they grind and polish the scales), grind over the already ground bevel, then photograph and ship the knife to a retailer.

Does BRKT make anything?

So they still don't make their own knives. Thanks for backing me up on that fact.

And what the hell does brkt have to do with what survive doesn't do?

I think the OP got his answer on the subject. I'm glad bladeforums could educate him on how bad survive is as a company. I'm also glad we were able to give him several far better alternatives. So with that in mind, I'll be done going back and forth with you about the fact that survive is a scummy ponzi scheme of a dirt bag company that no honest person should support or defend. But you keep digging on your own if you like...

 

[Quiet]

Actually chiral.grolim plenty of people haven't gotten their knives yet, so I'd say that factually you're incorrect (again).

Also, stand by, I've got a few pics to upload here in a moment.

 

[chiral.grolim]

So, what you're saying is that if geometry is the most important thing, then you should probably leave the S?K at home and bring a Mora Classic #1, then? Alright.

Can you post up the geometry of that knife? Because according to Mora, their knives have a primary bevel of 23' inclusive with a final edge ~28'. Stock is ~0.1" thick. Do the math, that Mora (which will be fairly weak, if you do need a stout blade) will cut slightly better than a S!K for ~0.040" inches deep into a material (40 thousandths of an inch) whereupon, yeah, the S!K will cut better through to the height (width) of the Mora. Moras are not slicers, lots of knives cut better than they do and also provide more strength.

Actually, their actions ARE fraudulent. They broke multiple laws when keeping peoples' money far past their promised delivery dates (as was discussed in the huge thread in Feedback). So, the fact that S?K has committed fraud is not in dispute.

If it is not in dispute, there should be a criminal charge on the books. Link it, please. Their Paypal account was frozen on the accusation of fraud, but it is functional now... I am not a lawyer, but I dispute the claim. If you assert a crime as fact when it isn't, is that a crime? Fraud even? i actually have no idea... asking for a friend?

Also, again, the actions I spoke of in my initial post tell the tale. If a run of knives is not back yet in Guy's hands at Milli...sorry, "his" shop, how could there even be "Seconds" to be sold? How would he even know?

That has actually been addressed, companies (FAR FAR better run companies than S!K) factor in a certain percentage of "seconds" even before they start production. S!K mentioned that they started shoving aside blanks and handle scales as "seconds" as soon as they got them back from one step or another. They have posted pictures of some in the defunct subforum, prior to finishing. More recently they posted pics of warped handle scales that they received prior to proper curing of the material... *shrug* That doesn't mean they COULDN'T have been sending 'firsts' as 'seconds' to generate new revenue, that sounds pretty darn deceptive, but a knife that you pay for that isn't yet made doesn't make the very next available knife "your knife". *shrug* I want my knife and if I don't want people "budging in line" and it looks like that is what is happening then I get my refund and get out (and then maybe come on BF and decry them as "frauds" and flame anyone who likes the knives regardless of how well made they are).

S?K deserves every bit of negative press and condemnation they get here.

Given what I have read against them here, and the name-calling, and seeing that they are still making and shipping knives, I wonder how that can be true...

There are a ton of people right here in the Maker's section who would be glad to make you a great knife in the steel of your choice*, and they'll be forthcoming, honest, and communicative.

^^^ THIS, many many MANY times THIS ^^^
Whatever you feel about ANY company ANYWHERE, no matter how shady or transparent, the fact that there are so many awesome and talented people here on BF offering their wares in the Maker's section is... it's one of the greatest things about BF, imo, and deserves to be highlighted over and over in just about any thread asking about "which knife".

 

[Quiet]

So, there's been all this talk about Survive? Knives are somehow better cutters than anything else, geometry this, behind the edge that...

Alright, well, that's all just talk. Let's look at some pics:

Our control group:


What DOES quality cutting look like? Eeeehhhh probably not like this:



Ok, with the baseline established, let's see what my GSO 4.7 in Cru Forge V can do. I expect it'll slice right through my little table. Pretty respectable against this firm grape:



Now, let's see what the CPK FK2 had to say about that. Oh. Ooooohhhh....THAT'S what "cuts better" look like. I see now!!



Both edges are factory fresh, and in stock as-from-maker geometry. It's just that Nathan's was simply better. So, the ultimate outcome here is, want a quality outdoor woods-fun knife in Delta 3V?

Leave the S?K in the bin, and get yourself a CPK, and support a quality maker while getting your hands on an amazing knife.

 

[Quiet]

Can you post up the geometry of that knife? Because according to Mora, their knives have a primary bevel of 23' inclusive with a final edge ~28'. Stock is ~0.1" thick. Do the math, that Mora (which will be fairly weak, if you do need a stout blade) will cut slightly better than a S!K for ~0.040" inches deep into a material (40 thousandths of an inch) whereupon, yeah, the S!K will cut better through to the height (width) of the Mora. Moras are not slicers, lots of knives cut better than they do and also provide more strength.


If it is not in dispute, there should be a criminal charge on the books. Link it, please. Their Paypal account was frozen on the accusation of fraud, but it is functional now... I am not a lawyer, but I dispute the claim. If you assert a crime as fact when it isn't, is that a crime? Fraud even? i actually have no idea... asking for a friend?


That has actually been addressed, companies (FAR FAR better run companies than S!K) factor in a certain percentage of "seconds" even before they start production. S!K mentioned that they started shoving aside blanks and handle scales as "seconds" as soon as they got them back from one step or another. They have posted pictures of some in the defunct subforum, prior to finishing. More recently they posted pics of warped handle scales that they received prior to proper curing of the material... *shrug* That doesn't mean they COULDN'T have been sending 'firsts' as 'seconds' to generate new revenue, that sounds pretty darn deceptive, but a knife that you pay for that isn't yet made doesn't make the very next available knife "your knife". *shrug* I want my knife and if I don't want people "budging in line" and it looks like that is what is happening then I get my refund and get out (and then maybe come on BF and decry them as "frauds" and flame anyone who likes the knives regardless of how well made they are).


Given what I have read against them here, and the name-calling, and seeing that they are still making and shipping knives, I wonder how that can be true...


^^^ THIS, many many MANY times THIS ^^^
Whatever you feel about ANY company ANYWHERE, no matter how shady or transparent, the fact that there are so many awesome and talented people here on BF offering their wares in the Maker's section is... it's one of the greatest things about BF, imo, and deserves to be highlighted over and over in just about any thread asking about "which knife".

Yeah, listen I don't care. You're wrong, and attempting to blather at me (like you used to do constantly to people in the S?K section) into submitting to your incorrect opinions won't work on me. Sorry, not sorry. Have fun with your "geometry" pictures.

Oh, oh, would you like me to show how I can slice up a grape with a bunch of other fixed blades EXACTLY AS WELL AS I did with the 4.7? I mean, that's what ultimately matters to people who, you know, actually use knives right? Not millionths of a millimeter, but what the knife actually does in the hand?

What would you say then, when I show you and everyone else here exactly how well a bunch of basic fixed blades do in cutting and that the 4.7 isn't better than any of them? That's a rhetorical question, I don't care about the answers, plus I'm losing the outdoor light, so I'd have to set it up tomorow. Trust me when I say, the BOB will cut just as well despite any measurements you'd care to toss out.

I swear, some folks act like they'll be performing microsurgery with their large fixed blade instead of cutting food, wood, and rope, all of which can be done by 99% of the knives on the market.

I have spoken.

 

[chiral.grolim]

So they still don't make their own knives. Thanks for backing me up on that fact.

And what the hell does brkt have to do with what survive doesn't do?

I think the OP got his answer on the subject. I'm glad bladeforums could educate him on how bad survive is as a company. I'm also glad we were able to give him several far better alternatives. So with that in mind, I'll be done going back and forth with you about the fact that survive is a scummy ponzi scheme of a dirt bag company that no honest person should support or defend. But you keep digging on your own if you like...

BRKT is a well-known company purported to "make knives" yet they basically do as little (or as much) as previously could be said about S!K. The process is similar to that of many other knife companies that don't have all the equipment in house. How much of the process do you want to be in house for the company to be accurately described as "making knives"? Design the model, sell the design, order the steel and other materials, order the steel cut and ground and HT'd by contractors, get it back and finish it and build it to customer specifications and deliver it. Which contracted task removes the term "making" from the description?

And yes, I too am glad to be able to provide better alternatives when asked.

 

[chiral.grolim]

So, there's been all this talk about Survive? Knives are somehow better cutters than anything else, geometry this, behind the edge that...

Why do you keep making up strawmen, Schiffing the statement? Who, besides YOU, has made the bolded assertion above? Do you seriously think that geometry has nothing to do with cutting??

Now, let's see what the CPK FK2 had to say about that. Oh. Ooooohhhh....THAT'S what "cuts better" look like. I see now!!

Excellent!!! What's the geometry on that knife? (I fell like I may have mentioned before that I expected any CPK to at least cut better than a S!K, but I will let you misquote me if that's your preference)

 

[Quiet]

-snip-
To make a product you need investment. If you can't get a loan, you basically ask your customers for a loan - S!K even called their starter campaign an "investment". It was understood that my money would be used to buy equipment/materials to produce other people's knives as well as my own. THAT IS HOW BUSINESSES OPERATE. They use the money from customers and investors to generate product and grow their business - otherwise, they truly are "dead in the water". THAT is what I have no problem with. Clear?

Continuing my desire to retain information for posterity, here we see chiral.grolim stating that he is ok with a company taking money from people in the form of a "loan" where they were promised a product in return, where that company then makes and sells OTHER products (but not their product) before they ever see their product. Sorry, "as well as".

Show of hands, who here is ok with that? If I pay you for a product, and you take that money and produce a product for your neighor, who happens to be a Youtuber who can get your name out there, and then produce my product years later after you've gotten NEW money and finally can produce my item?

Again, this is what Chiral here is stating is ok, despite the fact that it's very much not OK.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Yeah, listen I don't care. You're wrong...
...
...I have spoken.

LOL. I suppose I am also "incorrect" that, whether or not you speak the words aloud as you do so, what you have done is "typed".

 

[Quiet]

Why do you keep making up strawmen, Schiffing the statement? Who, besides YOU, has made the bolded assertion above? Do you seriously think that geometry has nothing to do with cutting??



Excellent!!! What's the geometry on that knife? (I fell like I may have mentioned before that I expected any CPK to at least cut better than a S!K, but I will let you misquote me if that's your preference)

Quoted:

they DO cut better than the knives I indicated and many more besides.

I'm sorry, what? Also, the edge geometry? No idea, the knife cuts better, and I'm betting that I have several other quite pedestrian knives that will cut just as well or better than the S?K, which is my whole point. Tell me, are you taking that diagram of yours out in the woods and trying to cut things with it, or the actual knives? Did you see any REAL WORLD difference? Yes or no?

 

[chiral.grolim]

Actually chiral.grolim plenty of people haven't gotten their knives yet, so I'd say that factually you're incorrect (again).

Missed this one, so getting back to it, can you please provide the quote where I state that there aren't people still waiting on knives? I think you made that up too.

 

[Quiet]

Missed this one, so getting back to it, can you please provide the quote where I state that there aren't people still waiting on knives? I think you made that up too.

I never said you said that, which is what I think you're making up right now. Please stop asking me to post quotes on things that you're claiming I said you said when I did no such thing. It's embarrassing. For you, I mean.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Quoted:

I'm sorry, what? Also, the edge geometry? No idea, the knife cuts better, and I'm betting that I have several other quite pedestrian knives that will cut just as well or better than the S?K, which is my whole point. Tell me, are you taking that diagram of yours out in the woods and trying to cut things with it, or the actual knives? Did you see any REAL WORLD difference? Yes or no?

Are you asking me to post more videos of S!K knives and others? What would you like pics of? YES, I see a "real world" difference between knives of thicker edge geometry compared to those with thinner. What would you like to see?

As an aside, if you would be willing to send me that CPK, I will gladly put it though the same paces as I do S!K blades, or I can run one of the use/abuse sets I have done on BRKT, Becker, Busse, Buck, S!K, and others and film it for you. And, if you are interested and have a suitable sheath with the knife, I will mount a UKE 2.0 to it for you to try.

 

[Quiet]

By the way, Gremlin, you keep asking me to post up where you defended these guys. If I actually cared to do so, it'd be entirely too easy and I'm actually baffled that you keep pushing that agenda, when I can just go to ANY THREAD in the Survive section where people were critical and pull up an endless number of wall'o text posts from you where it all boils down to "Sit down and be quiet, they make the best knives for the money and your criticisms are entirely unwarranted."

You may think that people don't remember, but we do.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I never said you said that, which is what I think you're making up right now. Please stop asking me to post quotes on things that you're claiming I said you said when I did no such thing. It's embarrassing. For you, I mean.

I will try again, here is the quote from you:

Actually chiral.grolim plenty of people haven't gotten their knives yet, so I'd say that factually you're incorrect (again).

Now, unless you can provide the quote from me which is "factually incorrect" to which this statement relates directly to...

 

[Quiet]

Are you asking me to post more videos of S!K knives and others? What would you like pics of? YES, I see a "real world" difference between knives of thicker edge geometry compared to those with thinner. What would you like to see?

As an aside, if you would be willing to send me that CPK, I will gladly put it though the same paces as I do S!K blades, or I can run one of the use/abuse sets I have done on BRKT, Becker, Busse, Buck, S!K, and others and film it for you. And, if you are interested and have a suitable sheath with the knife, I will mount a UKE 2.0 to it for you to try.

First of all, unlike S?K knives, CPK knives are actually generally available, please get your own. Secondly, I want to see where you used an S?K to cut something because one of your other knives wouldn't cut it. That is the ONLY valid qualification for the statement that one knife cuts better than another. If the other knives smashes the media, wheres your S?K sails right through it, THEN we'll be getting somewhere.

 

[chiral.grolim]

By the way, Gremlin, you keep asking me to post up where you defended these guys. If I actually cared to do so, it'd be entirely too easy and I'm actually baffled that you keep pushing that agenda, when I can just go to ANY THREAD in the Survive section where people were critical and pull up an endless number of wall'o text posts from you where it all boils down to "Sit down and be quiet, they make the best knives for the money and your criticisms are entirely unwarranted."

You may think that people don't remember, but we do.

Here again, WHERE did I ask you to post a quote "where you defended these guys"??? Half of my posts in this thread alone could be considered such a defense. What's the story?

 

[Quiet]

I will try again, here is the quote from you:

Now, unless you can provide the quote from me which is "factually incorrect" to which this statement relates directly to...

Wait, you're quoting me...as proof that I somehow stated....know what, you're confused. This is confusing, it's confusing you. Let's step back and take a breath for a moment. What this entire thread (and all the others) boils down to is this: you cannot effectively defend your friends Guy and Ellie of Survive? Knives. They contract others to make a mediocre product that doesn't cut any better than a vast number of fixed blades on the market today. Also, if you DO order a knife, you aren't getting it for years, while they busily parade and take cash-up-front orders for new products. These are facts to everyone except S?K shills.

I think we're done here. You're free to disagree, but if even one person sees this thread and thinks "Whoa, these S?K guys are trash" and order/buy something else instead, my work here will have been done.

 

[Quiet]

Here again, WHERE did I ask you to post a quote "where you defended these guys"??? Half of my posts in this thread alone could be considered such a defense. What's the story?

Odd actions for one who infers that he's not a S?K shill, no?

LOLOLOL