Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 - comparison to BRKT Bravo 1 & Swamp Rat HRLM

Good review. I suspect that the price difference with these knives has a lot to do with how they are sold. BRKT goes through dealers so everyone involved has to make a "living wage" and BRKT cannot sell directly and undercut the "discounted" retail prices of their loyal dealers. IIRC, the other two both sell directly. In the case of Survive, they are being sold pretty cheap cheap considering the cost of steel like 3V and M390. Guy also appears to be selling the knives for less that you would expect even from companies selling directly AND he include a sheath sourced from a highly respected Kydex bender. Good way to get your name out there, but if it was me, I would not be inclined to do it forever as growth leads to additional expenses either in the form of dealing with retailers who need their cut or hiring employees. Get while the gettin's good!!
 
did great , man.
thanks for sharing.
""
how did you get the conclustion of the steel that like "excellent"&"much better"?

Thanks, Dingy.
I assume you are refering to thse parts of the review:

... the edge is frighteningly sharp and of acceptable geometry for the intended use. ... MUCH better steel, an excellent edge capable of high durability ...

I see that I advanced from "acceptable" to "excellent" regarding the edge, but this was meant in different contexts.
The edge is "excellent" in terms of finish - it is even, shaving-sharp, and very aggressive! The geometry is "acceptable ... for the intended use" in that it is thin enough for carving, skinning, slicing, etc. while thick enough to endure careless cutting, lateral stress, prying, cutting into hard media, and low impact forces - "hard use". It will not cut as efficiently as the thinner edge of the Bravo 1 but it will endure more stress off every kind. This brings us to the steel itself. As I mentioned, published data of M390 corrosion resistance and wear resistance are much higher than for A2 tool steel and indeed better than most cutlery-grade steels, while sporting comparable impact toughness to A2. CPM-3V (which the GSO is also available in) is in a class of toughness well above A2 and M390, and is more wear resistant and corrosion resistant than A2. By these measures, both M390 and CPM-3V are "much better" than A2. For this particular knife size and intended use, many may argue that M390's features make it superior to CPM-3V. In any case, I hope I have clarified myself rather than muddy the water further?
 
Good review. I suspect that the price difference with these knives has a lot to do with how they are sold. BRKT goes through dealers so everyone involved has to make a "living wage" and BRKT cannot sell directly and undercut the "discounted" retail prices of their loyal dealers. IIRC, the other two both sell directly. In the case of Survive, they are being sold pretty cheap cheap considering the cost of steel like 3V and M390. Guy also appears to be selling the knives for less that you would expect even from companies selling directly AND he include a sheath sourced from a highly respected Kydex bender. Good way to get your name out there, but if it was me, I would not be inclined to do it forever as growth leads to additional expenses either in the form of dealing with retailers who need their cut or hiring employees. Get while the gettin's good!!

Thank you.
I assumed that BRKT's prices were mostly inflated with a smattering of cost of finishing - they seem to put a LOT of effort into appearance. The 'dealer vs. direct' comparison is interesting. Using dealers is a business decision from BRKT. They are not a foreign company, they could sell direct as Bussekin and Survive! currently do... But Guy certainly has his share of order-mishaps as his company grows, he may find it more economical to use dealers in the future... or not. *shrug* However, none of the companies are obligated to publish their expenditures and profit-margins, namely how much it costs to build each knife compared to how much each sells for. By pricing his products well below those of inferior materials from other companies, I certainly hope that Guy is cutting his way into the market! But he has mentioned that prices will start to go up, which is why the pre-orders generate such excitement even though the wait time can be excruciating for some! In an age of "zero-interest" investments, putting money into a Survive! knife can be a very wise financial decision. Had you spent that money on stocks, it is highly unlikely that it will have accrued significant value in the same amount of time that it takes Guy to put out a pre-order knife, a knife which is worth a substantial amount more than you invested in it if compared to similar offerings from other companies! Around the time I invested in this GSO-4.1 (~$150 mid-November 2012 pre-order price), I also had ~$5,000 in respectable stocks. The stocks accrued NET $45.00 in the 5 months it took to receive my knife, now priced at $200 and comparable to other US production knives priced even higher! The stock-interest from $200 would not have generated, in that time period, sufficient funds to afford a similar BRKT model. To be clear, I am not advocating purchasing Survive! Knives for the purpose of re-sale (like many Bussekin and BRKT knives), but pointing out to interested customers how investing in Guy's company pays for itself. I lent him my money at a monthly interest rate of ~7%, accepting the return as a lump-sum knife :cool: Definitely worth getting in on!



I should take this post to mention that Guy's production seems to consist mostly of designing, finishing, and packaging the knives. The steel & micarta come from manufacturers, they are cut and surface- & primary-bevel ground by a contractor, heat-treated by Peters (http://petersheattreat.com/), and the sheaths are made elsewhere by Kiah. This is nothing like what makers such as Phil Wilson and, I assume, Joe Mandt (jdm61) do - working with customer designs to build the knife from start to finish. Personally, i only own one custom knife so far, a WC Davis loveless-style drop-point hunter in S30V. I was more expensive than the GSO-4.1 and, to my mind, worth every penny. Many knifemakers offer very effective knives at even lower prices than Guy's and can give you exactly what you ask for. While Guy's business may be a great knife-investment, it is by no means the only or best option out there!

Sorry for the long post, and thank you all for reading the review.
 
Thanks, Dingy.
I assume you are refering to thse parts of the review:



I see that I advanced from "acceptable" to "excellent" regarding the edge, but this was meant in different contexts.
The edge is "excellent" in terms of finish - it is even, shaving-sharp, and very aggressive! The geometry is "acceptable ... for the intended use" in that it is thin enough for carving, skinning, slicing, etc. while thick enough to endure careless cutting, lateral stress, prying, cutting into hard media, and low impact forces - "hard use". It will not cut as efficiently as the thinner edge of the Bravo 1 but it will endure more stress off every kind. This brings us to the steel itself. As I mentioned, published data of M390 corrosion resistance and wear resistance are much higher than for A2 tool steel and indeed better than most cutlery-grade steels, while sporting comparable impact toughness to A2. CPM-3V (which the GSO is also available in) is in a class of toughness well above A2 and M390, and is more wear resistant and corrosion resistant than A2. By these measures, both M390 and CPM-3V are "much better" than A2. For this particular knife size and intended use, many may argue that M390's features make it superior to CPM-3V. In any case, I hope I have clarified myself rather than muddy the water further?

thank you for your explanation. very clear.

is there a comparision property chart from Crucible that CPM 3V with other high toughness steels , like S7 or 5160 ?
 
thank you for your explanation. very clear.

is there a comparision property chart from Crucible that CPM 3V with other high toughness steels , like S7 or 5160 ?

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/t&dchemtbl.html
http://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html
cpm3vcompgraph.gif


5160 is very close in composition to L6. L6 at 57 Rc reaches ~90 J impact toughness. S7 reaches ~165 J at 57 Rc, CPM-3V reaches ~113 J at 58 Rc, and INFI supposedly reaches ~150 J at 60 Rc. For most hand-use cutting applications for a knife this size (not chopping hard materials), ~100 J impact toughness would not be required unless the edge was very thin, perhaps too thin to withstand the torque, compressive, and abrasive forces commonly encountered. But once the edge is thick enough to handle those normal stresses with minimal maintenance, high impact toughness can be taken into account.

Relentless_Knives_Steel_chart.jpg


http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza (Joules/sq.cm on the left)
resil.gif

resil2.gif
 
Last edited:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/t&dchemtbl.html
http://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html
cpm3vcompgraph.gif


5160 is very close in composition to L6. L6 at 57 Rc reaches ~90 J impact toughness. S7 reaches ~165 J at 57 Rc, CPM-3V reaches ~113 J at 58 Rc, and INFI supposedly reaches ~150 J at 60 Rc. For most hand-use cutting applications for a knife this size (not chopping hard materials), ~100 J impact toughness would not be required unless the edge was very thin, perhaps too thin to withstand the torque, compressive, and abrasive forces commonly encountered. But once the edge is thick enough to handle those normal stresses with minimal maintenance, high impact toughness can be taken into account.

Relentless_Knives_Steel_chart.jpg


http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza (Joules/sq.cm on the left)
resil.gif

resil2.gif

thank you again , clearing my thoughts, cool.
and where can it get the info of impacting toughness on infi ?
 
thank you again , clearing my thoughts, cool.
and where can it get the info of impacting toughness on infi ?

Sadly, I must say "supposedly" because I cn only find references to the INFI value from testing by Moletta. Here is one reference to it: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=P4bPd_xDzyo

"Well according to the Charpy test ... INFI and Mod A8 measured around 100-150 joules. For outdoor use that doesn't really translate much. It just means that the edge won't chip out when it contacts material harder than the steel. INFI mushes out when it contacts concrete, no chipping..."

Any more questions related to the GSO-4.1?
 
OUTSTANDING Review

Appreciate you taking all the time to post the photos and stats

again--OUTSTANDING
 
Sadly, I must say "supposedly" because I cn only find references to the INFI value from testing by Moletta. Here is one reference to it: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=P4bPd_xDzyo

"Well according to the Charpy test ... INFI and Mod A8 measured around 100-150 joules. For outdoor use that doesn't really translate much. It just means that the edge won't chip out when it contacts material harder than the steel. INFI mushes out when it contacts concrete, no chipping..."

Any more questions related to the GSO-4.1?

no Q about GSO knife , sorry.
the data source of impacting toughness on infi and other steels is BS,do you belive that there is a knid of steel with a high HRC and get a high toughness like over 300J?

121tmz9.jpg

look at the moon shape wounds , that is a sign of classical Brittleness.
i searched out the above pic , but i do not know it is or not a Moletta knife.
 
Bark River has been making some of their models in 3v. Hoping to get a Bravo 2 and Golok in 3v when they come out. They just released a proto run of 5160 parangs that sold out in less than a day. They might start moving away from A2 entirely (hopefully). Not that A2 is a bad steel, 3v is just a better steel. And I think with the way they grind their knives, the 3v will be much better suited for the tasks intended.
 
Very nice review, Chiral. You covered a lot of areas that most reviews miss. Great job on the blade geometry, handle ergos and functionality of the sheathes.

I was interested in the GSO-4.1 because of the steel and other materials and because the maker seemed to be a good person truly interested in producing an excellent, functional knife at a good price; but the overall design didn't seem right. The handle seemed too straight to be secure. The tip didn't seem to lend itself to detail work or much of anything else, other than grubbing in the ground or stabbing.
 
Very nice review, Chiral. You covered a lot of areas that most reviews miss. Great job on the blade geometry, handle ergos and functionality of the sheathes.

I was interested in the GSO-4.1 because of the steel and other materials and because the maker seemed to be a good person truly interested in producing an excellent, functional knife at a good price; but the overall design didn't seem right. The handle seemed too straight to be secure. The tip didn't seem to lend itself to detail work or much of anything else, other than grubbing in the ground or stabbing.

Being more a bushcraft design, the detail work would be done closer to the choil then at the tip of the blade. What kind of detail work are you using the tip of your blade for?
 
Very nice review, Chiral. You covered a lot of areas that most reviews miss. Great job on the blade geometry, handle ergos and functionality of the sheathes.

I was interested in the GSO-4.1 because of the steel and other materials and because the maker seemed to be a good person truly interested in producing an excellent, functional knife at a good price; but the overall design didn't seem right. The handle seemed too straight to be secure. The tip didn't seem to lend itself to detail work or much of anything else, other than grubbing in the ground or stabbing.
[emphasis added]

The "Kephart" and almost all the "bushcraft" knives made today also lack a fine point. We need not even discuss the "Nussmuk," a skinning pattern.

I find the handle very secure - at least for outdoor work. Stabbing in the Saber Grip would be problematic.
 
Very well put together reveiw and lots of excellent points made in here. I have a 4.1 (3V) waiting at home for me right now. These are the excruciating days at work when I know a new knife has already arrived at my house!
 
Very well put together reveiw and lots of excellent points made in here. I have a 4.1 (3V) waiting at home for me right now. These are the excruciating days at work when I know a new knife has already arrived at my house!

Those are the worst :D
 
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