Survive! Knives GSO-4.1 - comparison to BRKT Bravo 1 & Swamp Rat HRLM

[ridnovir]

Before going into ergonomics, let's look at geometry and edge durability.

All of these knives are promoted as suitable for "hard use".
BRKT promotes the Bravo 1 as "a Heavy Duty Bushcraft/Survival Knife that can stand up to Abusive use in Real Time Situations." Destruction tests have challenged this assertion, demonstrating that the thin-edge on the Bravo 1 may deform and fracture under very hard use where thicker edges (0.030") will not. This may explain why the 3V versions have thicker edges even though they are made from tougher steel. This knife could be re-beveled for higher durability at a loss of cutting performance. The stock and spine are very thick at 0.22", the tip very robust, able to withstand heavy prying and lateral stress. As a trade-off, the thick spine increases the knife's tendency to wedge in tough materials (e.g. wood, kydex, sheet metal, etc.) where deeper cuts may be required. A trapped blade can result in edge-torque and damage when the edge is too thin. The thinner GSO-4.1 and HRLM are less prone to wedging on deep cuts, and their thicker edges (0.030") are less susceptible to torque, improving performance as "hard use" tools. This comes at the cost of cutting efficiency - the initial force required to complete a cut 3/4"-deep with the Bravo 1 is far lower than is required for the other two. For higher cutting performance, the edges of these two could be thinned by knocking off the bevel shoulders, at the risk of reduced edge-durability against lateral stress.

Keep in mind that an edge bent out of alignment is more susceptible to catastrophic failure, which is not so easy to repair. Sometimes trading cutting efficiency for edge strength can make the difference between a knife that cuts, albeit poorly, and a knife that is broken, i.e. no knife at all.

A note on performance, the satin Bravo 1 and tumbled GSO-4.1 slide more easily through cutting mediums than the coated HRLM which tends to drag.

When an edge is thin and cutting efficiency is wonderfully high, loss of sharpness due to edge-wear is more noticable, especially on hard or abrasive materials (e.g. animal hide, dirty rope, sandy environments) - cuts become ragged, tearing. However, that thin edge can be restored more quickly & easily than a thicker edge. With a good strop & abrasives, thin M390 and CPM-3V at 60 Rc are not much more difficult to sharpen than A-2 at 59 Rc, but the wear-resistance is many times higher, requiring repair less often. SR101, a version of 52100, is also touted to be superior.

I strongly disagree with this statement. In my experience the thicker spine convex blade of Bravo splits wood and other materials far better than thinner spine saber/ flat knives. I have never noticed the thick convex geometry of Bravo ever wedged in wood it splits it and pushes it apart with less effort than saber / flat blade knives with thinner stock that do in fact tend to wedge in wood. GSO's blade stock and geometry will make it more prone to wedging than Bravo.

 

[ridnovir]

To summarize:
All of these knives are very capable for myriad outdoor tasks. The less expensive Rat has the best ergonomics but highest weight and excessive choil, excellent steel but came with an unacceptably obtuse edge and no sheath. The more expensive BRKT comes with high polish for aesthetics to the detriment of actual usability, potentially dangerous ergonomics, good steel with a thin edge that cuts with superiority but might not stand up to the same level of abuse (despite advertisements to the contrary), and a 'crappy' sheath (but decent alternatives like mine are available). The GSO-4.1 has lower weight and better ergonomics than the BRKT, more useable but less 'presentable' finish, MUCH better steel, an excellent edge capable of high durability, and an excellent sheath. As a ready-to-go, easy-to-maintain outdoor-knife set-up, the quality and performance capabilities of the GSO-4.1 are hard to beat for the money. :thumbup:

Just A few more points I would like to comment on;

1. Satin fish of BRKT Bravo has the advantage of a) improved rust resistance vs tumbled finish (I love GSO finish but it does introduce micro pits where moisture will be trapped) B) less cutting drag v. coated blades. BRKT does not charge extra for satin finish unlike Busse does.

2. since unfortunate "crappy" sheath episode last year BRKT has changed its sheath maker and all new bravos and gunnies come with the new sheath that looks someone like your and has solid back

3.handle ergonomics are YMMV thing I have s to m size hands and find both Bravos and GSO 4.1 handles equally secure (I prefer the more contoured and hand filling scales of Bravo)

4. You can get Bravo in A2, 3V, S35VN and soon Elmax (gunny in elmax is in production now)

5. Bravo's scales are not removable but you can get any scale material you want (micartas, G10s, Woods, Horne, Bone, Carbon Fiber etc) plus you can get several different variations of the blade shape, ramp, no ramp, smooth spine, jimping, swedge, drop point, spear point, mosaic pins, hollow rivets, full height convex. Survive knives on the other hand are not this flexible.

 

[PatrickKnight]

Give me a couple of days to take some comparison shots and write/record something detailed, but know that the GSO-5.1 is a closer cousin to the RMD, and I'll be doing a direct comparison of those when the 5.1's ship out. I specifically used the HRLM in this thread as a closer match. And I will say this now, I haven't had the GSO-4.1 long enough to decide between it and the HRLM.

The RMD has the same handle as the HRLM, superior in comfort and control over the GSO-4.1 as mentioned in this review. Honestly, that handle may be enough by itself to tip the scales in favor of the RMD (or HRLM) - it's just so easy to hold & control and fits my hand better than the GSO-4.1. I'll be modifying the handle of the GSO-4.1 I keep to see if i can improve the comfort. The RMD has a longer blade and enlarged choil for slightly more reach while still allowing a close choke-grip, clip-point for increased tip penetration (e.g. stabbing, drilling) with a comfortable thumb-ramp to allow added force in such use, it's thicker stock for an overall sturdier package, and SR101 steel has demonstrated impressive toughness in use.

But the RMD is half-again heavier than the GSO-4.1, mine came with a thick edge in the curve that required a LOT of hand-work to bring to an acceptable level of performance, the extra blade length means a larger profile than might be ideal in some environments, many dislike choils and the RMD's is a little higher up the blade than is ideal, the knife doesn't come with a sheath, uncoated blades are only available custom or secondary market and will rust if uncared for (as will the edge), and SR101 wear-resistance is likely far below CPM-3V or M390 or 20CV.

Sooo... would you rather have a lighter, more compact tool that is ready to go or a longer (heavier) tool with a more comfortable handle but may need work to improve its performance?

As a "combat" or "survival/camping" single tool (urban, woodland, wherever), I'd prefer the sturdier RMD for prying, penetration, longer reach, batonning, and better ergonomics in adverse conditions. The RMD can handle a lot of abuse and can be modified (with some re-profiling work or if you bother customer service about it when you order) into an excellent cutter. I carry mine in a cheap canvas sheath purchased from SYKCO for their 7" blades, modified for an excellent fit. The total price was less than the going price for a GSO-4.1. But for all other hunting, woodcraft, diving, etc. I think the lighter blade in the smaller package with the lower maintenance is a better fit and the GSO-4.1 comes ready for use with a sturdy and razor-sharp edge of premium steel and an excellent sheath, a higher level of performance out of the box.

Again, I'll do a direct comparison of the RMD to a GSO-5.1 once mine arrives. I anticipate the GSO-5.1 to be lighter and higher performing out of the box, but it was also more expensive than the RMD. I may be able to modify the RMD's edge profile to match the other's cutting ability (with a lot of work that may translate to it being a more expensive knife), whereas I'm still considering ways to modify the GSO handle to bring it close to the comfort afforded in the rats. Time will tell...

Thank you so much for the very in depth response. The only reason I have not considered the 5.1 is that in my home state of Texas (currently in Ohio) the max blade length is 5.5 inches. While I have seen many people carry larger with no issues I dont want to be the one in the wrong place at the wrong time with a Warden having a bad day and get my knife taken.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I strongly disagree with this statement. In my experience the thicker spine convex blade of Bravo splits wood and other materials far better than thinner spine saber/ flat knives. I have never noticed the thick convex geometry of Bravo ever wedged in wood it splits it and pushes it apart with less effort than saber / flat blade knives with thinner stock that do in fact tend to wedge in wood. GSO's blade stock and geometry will make it more prone to wedging than Bravo.

These blades are only 4", which already reduces their ability to baton through larger pieces of wood. On thin/weak sticks, the extra width of the Bravo1 certainly induces the split further up the stick because it wedges sooner and more forcefully than the other blades. On thicker/stronger pieces (e.g. 2-3" diameter oak), or on more resilient material (e.g. metal, plastic, across the grain cutting) wedging early only makes it harder to push the blade further along the cut. Here, the thinner blades encounter less resistance (i.e. less wedging) and so complete the task with less effort. Also, the thin edge of the Bravo 1, while great for cutting soft media, is more susceptible to damage cutting these harder, more resilient materials, compounded by the increased force required to complete the cut due to the thicker spine. The Bravo1's "convex" grind is hardly noticeable and doesn't enter into the equation.

A hatchet (or splitting axe) with a 3" edge splits well because it's heavy weight carries a lot of momentum on a chop-strike, it wedges early and flares out dramatically to force grains of wood apart. None of these knives are able to accomplish the same performance with a baton because they do not flare out enough. On the other hand, a splitting axe has poor geometry for felling trees because it cannot achieve the high penetration depth a thinner felling-axe can (it is also badly balanced for the task).

In my experience, the Bravo 1 is inferior for batonning because a) it's too short, b) it's edge may be too fine, c) it's too thick at the spine for its size, d) its handle is too round and slippery. The other knives have their faults but are superior in this task.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Just A few more points I would like to comment on;

1. Satin fish of BRKT Bravo has the advantage of a) improved rust resistance vs tumbled finish (I love GSO finish but it does introduce micro pits where moisture will be trapped) B) less cutting drag v. coated blades. BRKT does not charge extra for satin finish unlike Busse does.

2. since unfortunate "crappy" sheath episode last year BRKT has changed its sheath maker and all new bravos and gunnies come with the new sheath that looks someone like your and has solid back

3.handle ergonomics are YMMV thing I have s to m size hands and find both Bravos and GSO 4.1 handles equally secure (I prefer the more contoured and hand filling scales of Bravo)

4. You can get Bravo in A2, 3V, S35VN and soon Elmax (gunny in elmax is in production now)

5. Bravo's scales are not removable but you can get any scale material you want (micartas, G10s, Woods, Horne, Bone, Carbon Fiber etc) plus you can get several different variations of the blade shape, ramp, no ramp, smooth spine, jimping, swedge, drop point, spear point, mosaic pins, hollow rivets, full height convex. Survive knives on the other hand are not this flexible.

1) Satin A2 rusts more readily than stonewashed M390, 3V, 20CV, or coated SR101. These uncoated blades certainly have less drag than the swamp rat, but there are other coatings that do reduce drag vs. uncoated. BRKT DOES charge extra for satin finish, it is included in the high price.

2) I'm glad to hear that they have changed the design (nothing to do with the maker), but buyers will need to make sure that they are getting an upgraded sheath if they purchase off the secondary market...

3) Ergonomics is NOT exclusively "YMMV", I'll post a video about this soon (after i modify the handle on the GSO-4.1 I keep). Smooth & round & straight handles provide poor retention/control, demanding a tighter (tiresome) grip to achieve the same effect in use (esp. in adverse conditions or while wearing gloves) that a different handle provides. While these handles are very similar, they are by no means equivalent, and both are inferior to the swamp rat.

4) $200 for a base A2 Bravo 1 to >$300 for a 3V model, depending on scales. Why even offer so many steels? The HRLM + custom sheath => $160. Survive! GSO-4.1 w/ M390 or CPM-3V => $200.

5) Yes, the Bravo 1's are "semi-custom" knives, you can order the same from Swamp Rat and perhaps one day Guy will offer more customizations on his GSO series, his business is much younger than the other two. Then again, offering so many variations on a single knife lends credence to the original design being flawed. For example, the BRKT jimping and thumb-ramp. *shrug*



I did not write this review to drag BRKT (or any other company) through the mud. Mike Stewart has been in the business a LONG time, and BRKT offers a WIDE variety of models and variations (as do Bussekin), many of which may be superior to the GSO-4.1 et al. in a variety of tasks. I chose two knives I own to compare to a similar new knife on the market. I'll leave it to others to compare it to other knives.

Thank you all for reading and posting :thumbup:

 

[ridnovir]

Thank you all for reading and posting :thumbup:

Thank you for thorough responses :thumbup:

 

[catalystman80]

4) $200 for a base A2 Bravo 1 to >$300 for a 3V model, depending on scales. Why even offer so many steels? The HRLM + custom sheath => $160. Survive! GSO-4.1 w/ M390 or CPM-3V => $200.

First, thanks for the great review that is both comprehensive and thoughtful.

One thought though is I can't quite see whether the Survive! knives are higher value than BRKT models. I'm a fan of both producers (have a number of BRKTs and have the GSO 10 on pre-order), yet if you see the pricing between the Bravo 1 and GSO 4.1, there's not much difference. The Black Canvas CPM 3V Bravo 1 from DLT goes for $224.97 plus $2.95 shipping with no tax, whereas GSO 4.1 with CPM 3V is $199 plus tax (6% in my state of PA, so $11.94 for me) plus $15.00 shipping. Sure, the Bravo gets much more expensive up to around ~300 with a wide array of other scales, none of which Survive! offers as they currently offer couple colors in Micarta and one G10 scale (which I have no problem with, as Guy says all the time, he's intended his knives to be tools to be used). So I'd say they're about even in pricing and the specs they offer. So I'd think it should come down to good ol' fashioned performance and personal preference (or just get both ).

 

[chiral.grolim]

One thought though is I can't quite see whether the Survive! knives are higher value than BRKT models. I'm a fan of both producers (have a number of BRKTs and have the GSO 10 on pre-order), yet if you see the pricing between the Bravo 1 and GSO 4.1, there's not much difference. The Black Canvas CPM 3V Bravo 1 from DLT goes for $224.97 plus $2.95 shipping with no tax, whereas GSO 4.1 with CPM 3V is $199 plus tax (6% in my state of PA, so $11.94 for me) plus $15.00 shipping. Sure, the Bravo gets much more expensive up to around ~300 with a wide array of other scales, none of which Survive! offers as they currently offer couple colors in Micarta and one G10 scale (which I have no problem with, as Guy says all the time, he's intended his knives to be tools to be used). So I'd say they're about even in pricing and the specs they offer. So I'd think it should come down to good ol' fashioned performance and personal preference (or just get both ).

That is a great price on the 3V Bravo 1, and DLT's shipping charge is exceptional! You'll notice that they do list the MSRP at $300. In-state tax is unfortunate for you, but is exclusive (for now) to PA-residents. Does MI (home to BRKT) have a similar tax for their residents? I don't recall, or where is DLT located? Sales-tax is the fault of the state, not the producer, and can drastically effect the price of ANYthing beyond the producer's control. For this reason, tax-considerations do not enter into the discussion. At only $225 for that model, I wonder how much DLT is paying BRKT to sell them... Survive! has no dealers as yet. Also, as a brand new (itty-bitty) company dedicated to performance over aesthetics, Guy doesn't yet offer anything close to the variation in handle materials, etc., nor does any OTHER knife producer, for that matter, though quite a few provide "custom" services. BRKT's range of options is quite staggering, evidence of how long Mike Stewart has been in the business.

So let's assume $228 for the 3V Bravo 1 (an incredible deal if you like BRKT), $214 for the GSO-4.1 - net $14 difference, not much. If both have their steel HT'd at Peter's in PA, then the steel is identical as well, at least when it gets into the finisher's hands...

What difference in the specs?

1) The GSO-4.1 offers much better handle retention than the standard waxed/polished Bravo 1 handle, an issue that does not go away with the "matte" selection or taking sandpaper to the scales yourself due to the roundness of the handle. NOTE: this is NOT a subjective issue, this is an objective property of the handles themselves. Whether or not a user cares or notices this difference is subjective, as with all personal observations. 2nd note: this does not make the Bravo 1 utterly unusable in every situation, it only makes it an inferior design for a knife.

2) The GSO-4.1 thumb-jimping is superior to the Bravo 1's jagged thumb-teeth or tragic thumb-ramp, but then again one needn't order these "features" on the Bravo 1. Again, this is not a subjective issue, it's based on objective force-distribution.

3) I have read that the 3V Bravo 1 edge geometry is about the same as the GSO-4.1, i.e. more robust. If so, then the single advantage of the Bravo reviewed here, the thinner edge that completes shallow cuts with much less force, is lost. Indeed if they have similar edge geometry then the GSO-4.1 will be a much better cutter at ANY depth because the Bravo 1 is cut from MUCH thicker stock than the GSO-4.1.

4) BRKT has had issues with over-heating their edges while applying the satin finish, leading to failed knives. No instances yet reported with Survive! knives.

5) Make sure you are getting the NEW leather sheath for your Bravo 1 or you'll need an aftermarket sheath as previous stock sheaths have been garbage. GSO-4.1 stock KiahDex sheath is excellent.

6) The thicker Bravo 1 has greater lateral strength for prying and a longer handle for larger hands. However, the GSO-4.1 is plenty strong laterally (as empirically demonstrated), with a handle suitably long for medium size hands and smaller.

In summary, that $14 (minimum difference) that you pay for the Bravo 1 gives you an inferior handle, inferior cutting geometry (if the 3V version is as thick as I've read), risk of inferior sheath, risk of botched edge-finish, all of which combine to reduce performance by an amount that would be based on user concern. BUT the Bravo makes a stronger pry-bar and is prettier, available in a wider variety of appearances to suit personal preference!

Please note, this is only a comparison of the GSO-4.1 and Bravo 1. BRKT offers MANY more models which may compete more closely with the GSO-4.1 in each of the above points.

 

[chambelona59]

My thanks and appreciation for your expertise and time devoted to presenting this review to us.
I purchased my GSO 4.1 on May 24th 2013 and received Friday, June 7th 2013 and feel quite fortunate to receive it in that period of time.
I purchased using Guy's generous Memorial day code yielding a 15% reduced price.
I'm completely satisfied with with my knife and the stellar customer service.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014636-all-that-is-Survive!-knives-post-here?p=12279548#post12279548

One of the reasons I wanted the knife is precisely for it's "perceived imperfections" in its design concept.
My late dad who died at age 78 in 2000, was a master wood carver and musical instrument maker who taught me
that any hand made creation should have at least one aspect of roughness or a slight asymmetry somewhere in it,
which actually contributes to the soul of the piece.

My late dad in '73-'74:

 

[Tixx]

My thanks and appreciation for your expertise and time devoted to presenting this review to us.
I purchased my GSO 4.1 on May 24th 2013 and received Friday, June 7th 2013 and feel quite fortunate to receive it in that period of time.
I purchased using Guy's generous Memorial day code yielding a 15% reduced price.
I'm completely satisfied with with my knife and the stellar customer service.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014636-all-that-is-Survive!-knives-post-here?p=12279548#post12279548

One of the reasons I wanted the knife is precisely for it's "perceived imperfections" in its design concept.
My late dad who died at age 78 in 2000, was a master wood carver and musical instrument maker who taught me
that any hand made creation should have at least one aspect of roughness or a slight asymmetry somewhere in it,
which actually contributes to the soul of the piece.

My late dad in '73-'74:

Very cool!

 

[sodak]

I hope you have many years of enjoyment out of it, and you think of your Dad every time you use it!

 

[chiral.grolim]

Thank you for this contribution to the thread :thumbup:

 

[chiral.grolim]

I've read a lot of comments asking for a sheath extension to aid in belt-carry of this knife, so I've made some up (specifically for this knife, but it works on any kydex sheath, including the GSO-10, and is Tek-Lok compatible). Drop me a line (specify right of left side) and I'll send one out to you (not free ). I only have a few, but if there is sufficient interest, I'll get a "service-provider" membership and start making more..

https://picasaweb.google.com/109675974399787025312/KydexExtension?authkey=Gv1sRgCJmZ1czFrrGjogE

This is NOT intended as a "for sale" post, just trying to make folks aware of the options that exist. Lots of kydex-benders who frequent this forum make similar accessories, so no one need suffer a knife that rides too high

 

[shqxk]

Great review.:thumbup:

 

[jdm61]

Just so we are talking apples to apples, if a knife has an MSRP (which typically means that it is gong to be sold by other resellers as opposed to being sold directly) the REAL WORLD pre sales/VAT tax price of those piece will likely be around 80% or so of that MSRP, unless the dealer has huge overhead like the shop on Pier 39 in San Francisco, etc. The traditional expectation is that the dealer would pay around 60% of MSRP wholesale from the manufacturer or distributor and the manufacturer would sell to the distributor/wholesaler(if one is involved) for around 45-50% of MSRP. Lots of hands out in the retail biz. You can see why some smaller mid-tech makers/manufacturers like to bypass the distributors and sell either to dealers or directly to the retail customer.

 

[Tixx]

Another size comparison pic.

 

[Tixx]

 

[TrojanSteel]

It looks like the lack of finish on the GSO 4.1, while reducing costs, may create crevices and an opportunity for rust, esp if in 3v. I know the dark color in those grooves is due to the heat treat process, not rust, but it looks like they could be problematic in the future if exposed to prolonged moisture.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It looks like the lack of finish on the GSO 4.1, while reducing costs, may create crevices and an opportunity for rust, esp if in 3v. I know the dark color in those grooves is due to the heat treat process, not rust, but it looks like they could be problematic in the future if exposed to prolonged moisture.

Any non-stainless steel, regardless of its finish, will rust if "exposed to prolonged moisture." That is why I use oil and try to prevent the prolonged exposure of my non-SS knives to moisture.

I have had no special problems with my 3V knife.

How about we wait and see before speculating.

 

[jdm61]

Actually, if it does have scale or oxides from HT in those "grooves" it may reduce the chance of rusting on those areas. I am not sure if Guy "passivates" or etches his 3V knives, but that wouldn't hurt either.