Survivorman and Helle knives collaboration knife.

Joe, I respect your opinion and the fact that you are actually handling one. The cosmetics that you identify wouldn't lead me to downgrade the knife to a $40 range. Lets face it, many customs come with those kinds of blemishes, lifts, scratches on pins. Not all, but many do and we are accustomed to move from the $100 range to $150-$200 range in order to perfect them but never expect to pay $40 for one.

Now this isn't a custom, but your pictures demonstrate a knife that seems to have far more workmanship and materials then lets say a Mora2000 or mora bushcrafter which runs the $30-40 range you have cited this knife to be. Lets also remember that the original spyderco bushcrafter - with its known flawed handle was sold off as seconds for $90.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on how it performs and perhaps compare its cutting to other knives like a mora or a bark river. Thanks.
 
i'd imagine that their prototype SHOULD be flawless, but perhaps that one has handling issues (too many people touching it, shipping, etc), and perhaps is more of a one off nature, with flaws that won't be present once they perfect making hundreds and thousands of them.

let's consider something nice and basic like the Taiga - that's a $75 street price knife. similar blade, similar handle materials, arguably simpler construction... $40-45? nah, they'd probably sell the blade by itself for that much.

once you start using it, well, it's going to have that scuffed up odd look anyway.

great pictures btw, really shows off the luminous nature of the wood...
 
I like the design. I wonder if they had to rush together a proto for SHOT.
Hmmm... was going to get a Viking. Waited for the Stroud intel. (BTW, thanks very much, Joe.)
Jury is still out, though I do like the half tang over the much smaller tang on the Viking.
 
I'm not surprised at all. I know there's a bit of a honeymoon period going on over there with these sorts of knives but they are nothing new here, and that's what you'd expect. It doesn't berate that type of knife to identify its place in the pecking order, and these are modest and cheaply made. One can buy Hultasfors for between £2.80 something and £3.00 odd, pretty much the same thing for a couple of quid under the Mora flag, and the next rung up would be the Helle offerings. One usually either buys the blanks cheap and little pressed brass guards/plates and whatnot for a couple of quid a pop, or gets one ready done mounted mounted into a bit of kindling for a bit more. Still cheaply done. In fact these are the kinds of things often distributed here as very basic kits to make your own knife with. Whilst some of you may be raising an eyebrow at the price I am positively weeping with laughter.

I get that some of you lost your way a bit and bought into the thick heavy knives thing, and now perhaps having come full circle see the merits of thin knives that actually cut. And that may well make some of you defensive off these sorts of knives, nay may even become obnoxious in their exaltation, and lose any sense of perspective. But lets be clear about what is rather than what we would like; these are cheaply made from modest parts. That you might find birch pretty or have bought into the image of Scandis geing great thing has nothing to do with anything. The only thing to bring forward from that is that even saber grinds can have good cutting power when they are thin whether they are whetted through to a zero, micro bevel, or a even stubby saber someone has done on a belt they are going to try to sell to you as a Scandi-vex. Makers aint stupid and they are aware of the honeymoon period, and they are aware of what they can get for them in some place right now.

During that period things get sold for well in excess of their worth – Gransfors for example twigged that with the Wildlife and the price in some places became loopy. Helle seem to be another company on to that now. Although I have not seen a blank for this particular pattern it isn't far estranged from their other blanks and they are super cheap. attacc was selling them here for the price of two gallons of gasoline since the 1980s, and with the tang pre-driven through a bit of kindling for two or three gallons more. Along with the Hultasfors and the Moras they have always been cheap beaters although perhaps a little more pretty to some eyes. That's no bad thing at all if one is realistic about it and has realistic expectations of what you get for your money. There's simple efficient truths to be had there that can be respected and enjoyed. What I know for an absolute certainly is that for $180 USD [120 Euros] I can get a different Helle blank, a bit of wood to stick on it for a handle, and effectively get a Fällkniven F1 for free. I don't dislike Helle, or Hultasfors, or Moras, or anything like that, but I'd be expecting a hell of a lot more knife for that money, or just several of them.

Those of you that enjoy beating on knives with a sticks might also like to ask yourselves in the privacy of your own minds how long would you anticipate this bit of wood staying attached too?

mmmm20110122140612copy.jpg
 
BT II - I get what you are saying, however condescending and inefficient you are with your words (some would say insulting), you're somewhat correct. However the point is moot. They can charge whatever thay want. It either sells well or it doesn't. You can't compare this offering to plastic handles hultafors or moras in that with those knives that hand workmanship is minimal. With a molded piece, the fit will always be the same. You have to pay the guy that is shaping the handles to the blade, pins etc. With the plastic handle materials there is no selection or rejection of materials. With the birch, however cheap it may be you still pay more per knife than plastic.

At this point this thread has become a dead horse. We can all agree that $180 seems excessive for this knife yet some will pay it, perhaps at a show or at a retail shop here in N.A. Most of the people that decide to get one will not pay MSRP. $100? Yeah I'd pay that but if the f/f isn't there I'm sending it back.

Seriously BT II you should read your posts before submitting so you don't have to sound like such a dick.
 
Marcelo Cantu

Hello cunt. As you can see, despite not being in the habit of making personal attacks in your case I'm willing to make an exception. I don't see why I should keep adding you guttersnipes to my browser's bozo bin when I can play at least as dirty as you. Efficient enough for you.
 
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baldtaco-II said:
Marcelo Cantu

Hello cunt. .... Efficient enough for you.
Click to expand...
= personal attack

BT II - I get what you are saying, however condescending and inefficient you are with your words (some would say insulting), you're somewhat correct. ..........Seriously BT II you should read your posts before submitting so you don't have to sound like such a dick.
Click to expand...
= an attack (maybe some useful advice, you decide BTW ) on your words.

:yawn: :rolleyes:
 
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Personally, I think the price of a lot of production knives is getting way out of hand, and that includes this one. I know a lot won't agree, but if I was going to spend even $75 - $80 for a knife like this, I would want a full tang and micarta scales. Just me, of course, YMMV.

Doc
 
Could someone explain what is the tang construction.
It is not a full tang, what is it?
And will it be strong enough for light battoning?

Thanks
 
DOC-CANADA said:
Personally, I think the price of a lot of production knives is getting way out of hand, and that includes this one.

Doc
Click to expand...
I generally agree. For me any knife over $100 reduces the likelihood of me buying it. I buy and own a lot of knives (including SAK's i have well over a hundred (not including axes and machetes)) but i probably have less than 10 knives in the $100-$200 range.
That being said i do like the look of this knife.
I think once the dust has cleared the street price will be considerably less than the initial $180.
 
At this point this thread is getting kinda heated like the threads that cropped up when the Spyderco Bushcraft knife was first introduced. We all need to take a chill pill and relax. We will know the real street price soon enough.
And personally i'm not that worried about the width of that tang, its still fairly wide and at least its full length.
 
neeman said:
Could someone explain what is the tang construction.
It is not a full tang, what is it?
And will it be strong enough for light battoning?

Thanks
Click to expand...
It is a full length tang however the width is not the full width. The handle half of the tang looks to be about 60-75% the width of the blade portion. The tang is visible on the top of the grip/handle for the handles full length but it is not visible on the bottom. Meaning the wood handle is wider than the tang of the knife. There are two brass rivets going through the handle and tang as well as a metal lanyard tube.
 
neeman said:
Could someone explain what is the tang construction.
It is not a full tang, what is it?
And will it be strong enough for light battoning?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I think it is perhaps called mortised-tang, where the tang is not the full length and width of the handle, but is in a channel (or mortise) milled into the handle/grip.

Based on my experience with other Scandinavian knives with thin blades (and wooden handles/grips), it will be strong enough for light batonning, but I would not make a habit of it.

Fortunately for me, I apparently don't need to baton, since I had never done it until I saw it/read about it on this forum. Here I had gone through 30 years of my life and never had a need to baton. Suddenly, I'm worried about every knife I buy being able to do it. Not sure why I'm like that.
 
I'm not worried that the tang is not strong enough, I just prefer full (length & width) tangs. Besides being arguably tougher, it you break the scales, you still have a handle that can be easily wrapped, not to mention ease of repair (replacement of scales).

Just my take, of course. :D

Doc
 
kgd said:
Joe, I respect your opinion and the fact that you are actually handling one. The cosmetics that you identify wouldn't lead me to downgrade the knife to a $40 range. Lets face it, many customs come with those kinds of blemishes, lifts, scratches on pins. Not all, but many do and we are accustomed to move from the $100 range to $150-$200 range in order to perfect them but never expect to pay $40 for one.

Now this isn't a custom, but your pictures demonstrate a knife that seems to have far more workmanship and materials then lets say a Mora2000 or mora bushcrafter which runs the $30-40 range you have cited this knife to be. Lets also remember that the original spyderco bushcrafter - with its known flawed handle was sold off as seconds for $90.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on how it performs and perhaps compare its cutting to other knives like a mora or a bark river. Thanks.
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Hey Guys, keep the thread civil.
I do agree with many (all) of Kgd's points. It very well could be a rushed version of the knife as well, but those scratches still rub me if it is a production around 100. I've got a Helle right now, but I didn't pay more than $25 for it. If it performs like this Helle, then it will be stout dependable knife for those who know how to use it, but like I said, there are price points I'm willing to shoot for if it is agreeable. This was the only knife at the show, at the blue ridge wholesale table.


I haven't purchased a Mora 2000 or a bushcrafter because of their price points.
Just for my arguments sake and you can see where my thought process is:
Examples of knives I would definitely pay 100 for, from use and inspection:
http://www.kellamknives.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_33_36_41
http://www.ragweedforge.com/ereskniven.jpg
http://www.howesknifeshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=68_164&products_id=1099
http://www.kellamknives.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_33_36_42&products_id=6
 
Joezilla said:
It very well could be a rushed version of the knife as well, but those scratches still rub me if it is a production around 100. I've got a Helle right now, but I didn't pay more than $25 for it. If it performs like this Helle, then it will be stout dependable knife for those who know how to use it, but like I said, there are price points I'm willing to shoot for if it is agreeable.
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I too would be a little displeased with that particular knife at that price. I don't think it's a good example of Helle's normal F&F however.

I have owned the Eggen and Fjelkniven, and paid around $60.00 each + shipping IIRC. They both were very well made and I saw no defects in the F&F at all. I ended up giving them to two buddies of mine that were packing around bars of cheap steel that resembled the prybar I keep in my truck. ;)

I didn't give them away because I was displeased with them, I just didn't use them, and thought it was a shame. Now they are in good hands, and being used.
 
Price point is complicated.

There's probably quite more work going into those knives than actually many others.

All things equal I think I prefer an injected plastic handle other a wood one, but if I go for a wood one I'll expect it to be more expensive.

There "semi-full-tang" design is probably more costly than either full tang or rat-tail tang, and probably require more fit. Again not a killer feature but if I go for it I'd accept to pay a bit more.

They have to pay some royalties to Les Stroud.

They are using laminated steel, not too common feature.

Those things are mostly made in Norway (I hope) not China.

Agreed they should have done their homework, too many flaws even if mostly cosmetic. Maybe an early version problem but I'd pissed if it happened to me.

Also agreed those are more expensive than Moras or Fallkniven, yet:
* full tang mora is beyond $120 (despite how much I like their other knives looks really crappy)
* wooden handled Fallkniven (SK1) is beyond $220

So compared to competition those look a bit overpriced but not that much. Personnally I think I'll pass but it doesn't seems much more outrageous than some over prices I've seen lately.
 
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Bladite said:
i'd imagine that their prototype SHOULD be flawless, but perhaps that one has handling issues (too many people touching it, shipping, etc), and perhaps is more of a one off nature, with flaws that won't be present once they perfect making hundreds and thousands of them.

let's consider something nice and basic like the Taiga - that's a $75 street price knife. similar blade, similar handle materials, arguably simpler construction... $40-45? nah, they'd probably sell the blade by itself for that much.

once you start using it, well, it's going to have that scuffed up odd look anyway.

great pictures btw, really shows off the luminous nature of the wood...
Click to expand...

Helle blades are some of the best priced ones to buy individually, for the steel quality. They run from around $15 to $25.

I've handled a few Helle knives at various stores and their fit and finish was MUCH better than the knife Joe has.

The Temagami resembles the Taiga quite a bit, to my eyes. Add the tang and rivets to the Taiga and it's almost the same knife.

The handle on Joe's knife leaves a lot to be desired, IMO. The wood is pretty, but it doesn't seem to have any type of finish on it. There's really no excuse for how the rivets and tang area look, for a knife with a $100+ price tag. Heck, for a knife with even a $60+ price tag.

And we all know better, as well, that if someone on BF laid out $100 or more on a knife and the rivets, tang area, and overall handle looked that bad, there'd be a raging post about how piss poor the knife quality, and it's company, is. :rolleyes:
 
Joezilla said:
I was pretty excited about this knife when I heard about it, and while I was not expecting super bells and whistles from a Helle knife, I was expecting the superior craftsmanship I have come to know from such a good company. With an MSRP of $100 (putting it around $60-$80), I was let down.
IMG_1243.jpg

First, while the grind was an even, well ground scandi, it was buffed wrong and had an odd shine to it

IMG_1257.jpg

The rivet did not sink into the hole and was inset, leading me to believe either the wood had swelled or it was not finished.

IMG_1250.jpg


The rivets themselves did not seem completely finished. They had scratches going one way on half of the rivet and then some going the other.
IMG_1249.jpg


And the half tang was filled half way with epoxy.
IMG_1253.jpg

IMG_1254.jpg


Good: The handle was ergonomic, and the knife was not overly thick. The tang missing from the bottom portion of the handle allows for modification if you dislike the swell. There was no “Les Stroud” Logo on it, surprisingly, and that may be modesty points for the gentleman.
IMG_1255.jpg

Normally I would not be so critical on a knife, but I would be hesitant to pay more than $40 for this knife. The sheath supplied with the knife that I saw was pretty good, and the fit of the sheath was proper. On the back of the spine, in the handle, the fit was flush. The front of the handle didn’t matter as the blade went half way through, vertically. All in all, I would probably pay a max of $45 for a production knife of this craftsmanship. I still like the knife, and think it is a good design, but in my honest opinion, based upon the model that I saw.
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Joe,
Did you actually talk to the people at Blue Ridge or are you just looking for a reason to put this knife down? The one on display was just a rough prototype, not a production model and Blue Ridge knew all of its flaws.
 
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