Swamp Rat vs Becker?

If you're throwing a knife that isn't designed to be thrown, it's only a matter of time before it breaks. As far as I know, neither Swamp Rat or Becker has released a "throwing knife". Throwing knives, stars, etc. are heat treated to a lower/softer RC and can therefore sustain repeated impacts. Knives treated to a higher RC will eventually succumb.

MYTH until physical data with numerical values is presented.

I tried to start a thread on this in the knife-testing subforum but few people responded since it appears that no one has the data to back up the myth.

From what I have gathered from users and the makers themselves, EVERY Bussekin knife is a thrower, including their swords. But you are advised to use a very obtuse edge, throw at materials with HRC below that of the knife, and also try not to miss ;)


Spoken like a true person who knows nothing about heat treat or physics
Typed like someone who ALSO knows nothing about HT or physics.

:rolleyes: Let's not derail this thread any further. If you would like to discuss the physics behind batoning vs. throwing, feel free to PM me.
Please post to this thread if you have anything relevant to contribute to the discussion. I am not a mathematician or a physicist but I am a scientist (biology) and would appreciate any scientific effort, especially calculations or empirical data from even a rough experiment, supporting or dispelling this common myth and the theories behind it.

Thank you.
 
Please do elaborate. I've got popcorn and newtons laws over here waiting patiently.


Its called distribution of stored energy. Google that.

When a knife splits wood the energy that transfers from the blow to through blade is dispersed through the splitting of the wood. when a knife is thrown not all of the energy is passed to the tree or target and causes stress and damage to the knife.


Run your car into a tree sometime and tell me what happens.

Go ahead and throw your knives I won't lose sleep, but don't think people who actually use knives as TOOLS will take a knife"hard use" argument seriously based on throwing. just saying
 
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Pasted from the thread I linked in my previous post:

From my previous post about average knife throwing speed, throwing a 12oz knife into a target at 50km/hr calculates to a kinetic energy level of the center of mass (ignoring rotational KE at this point) before impact = 3281.8 Joules.

I have become convinced that idaho is correct, that fatigue due to cyclic loading with lateral stress is the wrong path to follow, that any sound steel knife at 58 - 60 HRC is strong enough to endure the vibrations without fracture, the stress & strain are too low to reach yield strength and exceed the range of elastic deformation (in which the steel experiences virtually NO fatigue).

Impact toughness is the key, measured in Joules per cubic meter. Since cubic meters are rather large for the volume of steel involved in this scenario, I propose cubic centimeters (cc) = 0.000001 cubic meters.

Let's assume our hardened 1095 knife is 340g, approximately 30cm long x 4cm wide x 0.5cm thick (net 60 cc), center-of-mass traveling 140 m/s. Kinetic energy at impact = 3332 J, and the if the blade absorbs ALL of this energy at impact, thats 5.5 e-5 J/cc (Joules per cubic centimeter).
I found some data graphing impact toughness (via Charpy) of 1095 steel at ~60 HRC in the 15 - 20 foot-pounds range, 1 foot pounds = 1.35581795 joules, so 15 ft-lbs = 20.4 Joules. Now, I'll need someone to explain to me what unit of volume/area that value covers, but if it is the Charpy standard, that's 5.5 cc, so 3.7 J/cc. That's 67,400X the amount of energy per cc required to endure the impact of the knife being thrown...

What am I missing? From that amateur math, I can see how thin edges could fracture & chip on impact but not how a knife could lose a large portion of the tip or the entire blade snap away... unless something was terribly wrong to begin with.

Help?
 
Wait, Your argument is you broke a bk7 (although you haven't shown proof) in 1095, where's the tests for sr101? So your complete argument is based on an unknown knife, assumed variables, assumed velocity, then you put numbers together and even your math says you shouldntt break it, but you did? Seems like your calculations may be a bit off then. I don't get where your going this?

And the OP never said he planned on throwing the knife at all, so again I'm not sure where you are going with this?
 
I believe this argument has run its course. there is a knife throwing forum for a reason. lets get back on topic seriously now.



OP, what rats models in particular are you considering?
 
:rolleyes: Let's not derail this thread any further. If you would like to discuss the physics behind batoning vs. throwing, feel free to PM me.

Don't give a whit about the physics. Broke a knife didn't feel shoulda broke. Abused coupla Swamprats a lot more and they never broke yet.
 
Don't give a whit about the physics. Broke a knife didn't feel shoulda broke. Abused coupla Swamprats a lot more and they never broke yet.

Well then, by all means, have fun big boy. :rolleyes:

Now, is it too much to ask to keep the thread on topic?
 
Well then, by all means, have fun big boy. :rolleyes:

Now, is it too much to ask to keep the thread on topic?

LOL...would it be too much to ask for you to follow your own advice, seeing as that you started the derailment in the first place? Throwing and breaking a knife is a data point, whether it's a legitimate use or not. All other things being equal, if one knife breaks while another doesn't during the same level of use - whatever type of use - then it logically follows that the second would be tougher in that category of use than the first. In general, of course, and with caveats; but it's a piece of data that the OP can take or leave. And JoeRe saying it did not require your mounting of your soapbox.

OP, it's my understanding that the SR101 steel used in Swamp Rats is generally tougher; however, 1095 is an excellent cutlery steel and plenty tough for knife tasks. As several folks have said, Swamp Rat could be considered an "upgrade"; the only consideration on your part would be, is the cost of the upgrade worth it to you? You will not be disappointed in Becker knives for knife use. If you push your knives to the limit, again, in general, you can reliably expect a Swamp Rat to outdo a Becker. JMHO.

And yes, I own both; and I have retired my Becker (an older Brute) in favor of my Swamp Rats, both from a user's and collector's standpoint.
 
Please do elaborate. I've got popcorn and newtons laws over here waiting patiently.

Its called distribution of stored energy. Google that.

When a knife splits wood the energy that transfers from the blow to through blade is dispersed through the splitting of the wood. when a knife is thrown not all of the energy is passed to the tree or target and causes stress and damage to the knife.


Run your car into a tree sometime and tell me what happens.

Go ahead and throw your knives I won't lose sleep, but don't think people who actually use knives as TOOLS will take a knife"hard use" argument seriously based on throwing. just saying

Wait, Your argument is you broke a bk7 (although you haven't shown proof) in 1095, where's the tests for sr101? So your complete argument is based on an unknown knife, assumed variables, assumed velocity, then you put numbers together and even your math says you shouldntt break it, but you did? Seems like your calculations may be a bit off then. I don't get where your going this?

And the OP never said he planned on throwing the knife at all, so again I'm not sure where you are going with this?

I believe this argument has run its course. there is a knife throwing forum for a reason. lets get back on topic seriously now.

LOL.

My "argument" is that no one has presented demonstrative data, theoretical or otherwise, that throwing knives not specifically HT'd for the purpose necessarily leads to fracture and therefore constitutes gross abuse and is an unreasonable measure of durability.

In the thread I began, my initial hypothesis was that throwing a knife of general specifications (no brand) will destroy it via catastrophic failure. Using newtonian physics (which you claimed to have at the ready??) and empirically generated data regarding strength and toughness of the selected knife steel at the selected hardness, my calculations bring me to the opposite conclusion, namely that throwing a knife of the specifications presented will NOT destroy it by catastrophic failure unless there is a serious material flaw in the material to begin with. That is, throwing this hypothetical knife (with properties similar to a number of "hard use" knives) is not a problem. If your knife breaks, there was something seriously wrong with it.

Now, I doubt my calculations and seek support from the community... but no one has presented an alternative calculation and conclusion demonstrating otherwise.

Until such a demonstration is offered, MYTH.

As to throwing a knife as demonstration of its durability, I know a lot of soldiers who use knives as tools that would be convinced by that. Actually, from your own arguments, throwing a knife is an excellent demonstration of its toughness, and who would argue? The physics supports that. *shrug*

FYI, I started a new thread in the knife-throwing subforum to again seek proof that "hard use" knives are too brittle to throw. I hope to get some useful replies...

Well then, by all means, have fun big boy. :rolleyes:

Now, is it too much to ask to keep the thread on topic?

Please do, but let's try to stick to objective facts and avoid unsubstantiated myths , shall we? Please?
 
LOL...would it be too much to ask for you to follow your own advice, seeing as that you started the derailment in the first place?


Point taken, and I concede. I derailed it, and I'm trying to place it back on track.

Please do, but let's try to stick to objective facts and avoid unsubstantiated myths , shall we? Please?

Again, point taken. I will look for your new thread and pose a question as well.
 
Point 1: why throw away a perfectly good knife?

Point2: What was the OP's original question?

Point3: The original question was how the Swamp stacks up against the Becker. I think its been established that we all want to cut stuff, chop stuff, and have fun with our knives, not throw them away. No more knife throwing posts, they make me sad. :( :p
 
Ill keep this on topic, as far as the bk7 its actually my least favorite of the beckers. it has the longest thinnest point of them all. I feel it lacks strength but many swear by them. as for the rodent 6 I dont dig the handle shape but that's relative. if you were going for a 6 inch rat try and find an m6. now that's a knife and its one of my favorites.
 
As others have mentioned, check out the scrapyard 711. To me it seems a better comparison. If you like Micarta or G10 handles more you might look on the exchange or auction house for older models.

I like sr101, it takes a very good edge and holds it a very long time. I believe it is extremely tough at its chosen hardness. the waki test video is very persuasive. My personal knives have proven out the edge retention.

I really like beckers also. I am very tempted with the bk5, and the smaller one that looks like it. I like the design. If a design calls to you more by one or the other manufacturers, get it. You shouldn't be disappointed by the function or quality of either one.
 
I should have asked these questions before I ordered but...
I see that the Rodent 6 is claimed to start at $149 but, since I didn't see any options, I like to know what this means? Also, I read the spec on the Rodent 4 which claimed a "flat" sabre grind and I didn't notice that the 6 was actually a "bevel" sabre. Can anyone explain the difference (I wanted a flat grind for splitting). Also can one get the knife without the black (I gather this impedes splitting).
 
Cool! Back to business! :)

If the Rodent 9 is of any indication, the "ultra convex saber bevel" is a slow convex curve from the relatively small flat to the beginning of the edge. The same for the 6. I guess the 4 is more of a flat bevel from the, again, relatively small flat to the edge. The 6 is also much thicker at 1/4" than the 4 and the same as the 9 so it makes sense.

For splitting, both the 9 and the 6 look good! And, no, I've noticed no difference between coated and uncoated when splitting wood. Convex and Flat bevels wont make much of a difference in that narrow a blade either. But, its easier to split wood with a longer knife, my Rat Mastiff is easier to work with than my comparable 6" knife.

Hope this helps a little
 
It's too bad there aren't any Busse's that catch my fancy right now because the Infi steel is probably a better choice for where I live in the Pacific Northwest.
 
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