Taking knives apart

gamma_nyc said:
I’m gonna propose a contrarian idea here, but maybe the solution is to make Spyderco knives easier to disassemble/reassemble. Not to make unfair comparisons, and I have not taken any Spyderco knives apart myself, but Chris Reeve knives are very easy to disassemble/assemble and I have not heard similar retailing problems (regarding tampered knives) from them.

Personally, if the tampering problem is driving up costs but not benefiting customers, that’s a business loss ahead. What if those same costs were allocated towards streamlining construction/design so that customers would receive an extra value in the form of simplicity, in addition to the higher cost? Maybe they would pay up similar to the Chris Reeve premium?
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You can't compare the mentality of a CRK owner to the average Spyderco customer. This isn't a slam against Spyderco it is just a simple observation that people willing to pay $300+ for a knife are likely to be more knowledgeable and or careful with their tools and the maintenance vs a person spending in the sub $100 range which Spyderco has many great offerings in. I would say it still holds fairly true even into the sub $200 range.
 
I have no data to support what I am about to say, but given the relative price points of CRKs and Spydercos, my guess is that there may be a lot more Spyderco owners out there than CRK owners, which in itself creates a higher likelihood of knives that have been tampered with getting put back together incorrectly or with damage. Certainly I think folks willing to try to disassemble a Spyderco knife are more likely to do it on the less expensive ones versus the more expensive ones.
 
Engineering the knives to withstand disassembly, essentially the FRN and G10 slab knives, will drive the price up. Given the heat that Sal has gotten over pricing in the last year, and how much pain its caused so many makers over the last few years, I honestly don't know that its a reasonable ask. The more I think about it, the more it becomes an "at your own risk" sort of thing, and maybe people learn that not everything has to get taken apart. When I used to work on cars the number of vehicles that were "well maintained" and yet had the drain plug threads stretched to the point that there was little to no material left on the plug or in the pan proved to me that even people who are trained sometimes are just not as good as they think they are. turn that big old drain plug into a little bitty screw and yeah, maybe just don't take them out?
 
I was thinking about the idea of retailers re-selling off what essentially is a used knife. What if Spyderco put the knife in sealed plastic? Still use the nice box an all, but instead of the thin dust cover plastic they used some plastic that you need to cut open?
 
PirateSeulb said:
You can't compare the mentality of a CRK owner to the average Spyderco customer. This isn't a slam against Spyderco it is just a simple observation that people willing to pay $300+ for a knife are likely to be more knowledgeable and or careful with their tools and the maintenance vs a person spending in the sub $100 range which Spyderco has many great offerings in. I would say it still holds fairly true even into the sub $200 range.
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This is the most laughable argument I've probably ever heard in regards to knives. Knife "intellegnce" is now considered to be based around price. :rolleyes:
 
cbrstar said:
I was thinking about the idea of retailers re-selling off what essentially is a used knife. What if Spyderco put the knife in sealed plastic? Still use the nice box an all, but instead of the thin dust cover plastic they used some plastic that you need to cut open?
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I can see where you are going with this idea, but if I can't handle a knife without taking it out of the plastic, what does it then prove to anyone else?

Boxer .45 said:
This is the most laughable argument I've probably ever heard in regards to knives. Knife "intellegnce" is now considered to be based around price. :rolleyes:
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While I agree that its unfair to say that those who spent more know more, I think you can also agree that its unlikely that anyone spending 300$+ on a knife is doing so without any thought. Granted there are guys out there who just deal on those levels of cash, they know nothing of watches, but rolex cost a lot, and look nice. I'm sure there are a few boutique shops where CRKs are the cheapest in the place and anyone walking in gets their socks from a tailor. But on the bell curve of knowledge, we are the upper edge, and the average person is going to see spyderco as pretty much the upper end of the market. I can't really imagine someone "accidentally" buying a CRK. So maybe its not that owning a 300$ plus knife leads to knowledge, but simply the knowledge that such a thing exists, and is still well within the production end of the market. Compare it to cars, you don't have to own a Koenigsegg to know that they are still not the upper limit of what can be spent on a car. But you do have to know that they exist, and if you dont watch Top Gear or Grand Tour, and a car is simply an expensive, self-propelled phone charger, well then you might think that a BMW Black or an AMG merc is where the upper end of the market is.
 
In the end some of us don't see a pocket knife as a sealed appliance, to take home and use then dispose of properly. If I can't take my computer/car/refrigerator etc. apart and replace or modify parts I'm simply not going to purchase it. Having said that I also don't expect there to be a warranty once I've done it. IMHO the problem with Spyderco and I'm sure with other too is the availability of getting parts unlike my car if I screw something up I can't go to Spyderco.com and buy body screws, liners et. al. I in essence own a ugly paper weight. While this doesn't necessarily mean I won't buy a knife from them but it is one of the factors that for me puts a $150 or less price ceiling on their knives.
 
Boxer .45 Boxer .45 I am not saying that money = "knife intelligence" but there is a greater probability of "knife intelligence" when as the price climbs. Does a person who is not knowledgeable about TVs or Hi-Fi Audio go out and buy a TV or Sound System from the higher end? There is also the higher probability that a person is more careful and respectful of things they purchased when the amount paid is in the higher end. Mentality towards something you spend money on can relate to your knowledge and or caution towards damage. I think G gadgetgeek helps put further perspective on this point.
 
gadgetgeek said:
I can see where you are going with this idea, but if I can't handle a knife without taking it out of the plastic, what does it then prove to anyone else?
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I understand how you feel. I'm the guy at the store that makes them take out three knives and I pick the one that for what ever reason feels the best to me. But I feel like the people who are re-selling these knives are more then likely online retailers.
 
A hundred bucks is a lot of money for a knife for most people. The folks without 'knife intelligence' are buying twenty dollar knives.
 
I do believe there is a relationship between how much one is willing to spend and their knowledge of that product category. You don't have to be completely ignorant to foolishly work on something you shouldn't be working on. It certainly isn't the only factor people will return their mistakes as new because they lack the morals telling them to do the right thing.
 
Honestly...how friggen hard is it to take a knife apart and put it back together? I've taken every knife I've owned apart. And on top of that, who can't take personal accountability for messing up their own knife? This is the problem with society. Nobody can take accountability for their own actions. I can't believe Sal even had to start this thread. Just a sad state of affairs.
 
Dunning-Kruger effect.
Screws=user maintainable
I am user=it should be easy enough for me to do
Its not that easy and screws that small strip very easily=not my fault, must have been built wrong
Built wrong+big corporation=not my fault
not my fault=just send it back

We don't get it both ways. Lots of people who are not old enough to even use the phrase "good old days" see fixing stuff as a part of masculinity that their grandfather had, and they no longer have access to. However they have youtube, and you can learn anything on youtube. And by and large you can, its a great resource for a lot of things, but the guy/gal putting up the video has no idea what level of knowledge you do or don't have, and very often they can make something look easy. So the viewer then presumes, yeah it looks really easy, I can do that too! But its not, and maybe the end user doesn't have the right tool, or maybe the screw was over torqued because it was the first one monday morning or the last one friday at close, or maybe it was just a dud. Then what? So the person tried to learn, found out that maybe it was a bad idea, but they will likely never learn why, they jump on a forum to see maybe if they can learn more, and likely even before signing up they discover that they are part of a hated class of scum, because the internet only deals in generalities and absolutes. So is it Sal's responsibility to train these people? Should he do it on his dime? And how many of those self proclaimed "give me user-maintenance or give me death" types don't see the blatant double standard they hold? Everyone should have the skills to fix things, but fixing things doesn't always work. Making things user maintainable makes them more expensive, and that is unacceptable. We should all take personal responsibility for our actions, but demand a company have a bullet-proof warranty.

TL;DR: The world, she ain't that simple.
 
Again I blame the internet lol. I was watching a Blade HQ vid on youtube and the guy on there said that when he worked for CKRT, he would sometimes raid the return bin for knives to take product shots for. They would sometimes get hundreds of knives returned and he's yet to find any actual problems with any of the ones he pulled out of the bin.

IMHO when you buy a knife in person at the store you can check it over and make sure you got a good one. Where as if you buy it on the internet I think it's way easier to have buyers remorse and invent imaginary problems like the blade not being 100% perfectly center. It's too easy to return items on the internet.
 
It says something though when a person can look over three knives in person and the
three knives have different centering and different levels of action smoothness. How
many people have taken their knives apart, and because they put in extra attention to
detail with detent torque or adding a particular lubricant have been able to improve
the performance of their knives? I have been sent multiple knives here in Canada where
the pivots have been tightened so that the blade barely opens. Should I just have do deal
with a blade that cannot be opened with one hand even though that's one of the main draws
of the knife; or should I be "allowed" the privilege of adjusting the pivot screw in order to
get a knife that performs as it is supposed to? The screws are also quite soft and strip out
rather easily. Is this done on purpose so that the Customer who paid for the knife will strip
out the screw heads and prove that he touched his knife in an offending manner? I know that
I use extra special care when adjusting the screws, but it is obvious that they are very soft.

When folding knives are priced at premium levels and they are supposed to be some of the very
best available, then should a person return an item when it doesn't open smoothly or is not
centered? At what level does "within product specs" kick in? Some would argue that a person should
have to spend weeks cycling the action in order to smooth it out. Some would argue that a knife
should perform perfectly out of the box. And some would argue that as long as the blade can be opened
and shut, then that's all that matters.

I don't know what the answer is, but if a folding knife is never to be touched with tools, then my opinion
is that it should be very close to perfect right out of the box. That alone would prevent most from putting
tools to the knife out of the fear that they will ruin a perfectly good knife.
 
I would think that $200+ should be enough. If not, then why not buy knives that cost 1/10 the price?

Edit: I thought that I was already paying that premium in the price.
 
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I don't know what the numbers are. I can speculate that 200$ doesn't go as far in Golden as it does other places, and that will have an impact at some point. Certain materials are going to come with costs that are not always easy to estimate. I understand the price of titanium can fluctuate pretty widely (I could be wrong) carbon fiber and G10 have PPE and similar costs, FRN has the up-front of the molds. Even the difference in process, CNC vs Jigged grinder, vs whatever other method, all have an effective price-point, but also change how the production has to happen.

The point I'm trying to get at though is that even though some of the so-called indicators of quality are kinda ridiculous to hit, they are still demanded. Without knowing what the "raw" cost of the knife is, there is no way to know what the finished and therefor the profit, I suspect the margins are a lot thinner on a lot of knives than many people would estimate.

I don't know anything about the economics of manufacturing at an industrial scale, but it often seems to me that many here demand perfection, but are also unwilling to pay for them. I don't know that 200USD with a premium steel, a mid-complexity lock, and a mid range handle material lets me demand a fully centered blade and a slick as butter action. My two most recent knives have been sub-200USD, a bugout and a Para-3, and both are really great. But with that being said, at the price I paid for them, I'd be willing to overlook some small imperfections. The fact that they are as good as they are just shows me the value of them, and maybe I am just not as picky, or maybe I'm being taken for a ride, but that's just how I see it. 300+, then assuming the cost wasn't put into the materials, then I can start getting picky.

As far as knives that had to cross the border, I feel that has to be a different debate for a different day, since they have already been "tampered" with.
 
+Gadgetgeek. Very good points. I suspect that some of the knives that I have purchased since the
beginning of 2018 did have their actions tightened in order to get through Canadian Customs. I also
give a lot more leeway to knives that are less expensive; but still are still made with decent materials.
However, there have been some Spyderco's that I purchased pre 2018 that I was able to improve substantially with a little bit of tweaking. When I can improve the action of a knife and center it, I just
have a difficult time believing that I did something wrong.

One thing I have to mention is that the newest knives that I have purchased; Rex 45 PM2 and Para 3 have
been PERFECT. I'm talking out of the box fluid action, dead nuts centering and zero blade play. I wouldnt
even think of touching these knives with a driver because there is no way to improve them. After reading
a great deal of reviews, it would seem that I am not alone and I have yet to read a single review where someone received a sub-par example.

I thought about your initial question. If I had to pay a premium of $10 USD to have every knife come out
the same way that these latest Rex 45's did, I would gladly pay it.
 
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