Taking knives apart

[sparky2016]

Even with improperly disassembling a folding knife, what kind of damage can be caused on the knife? (The guy may cut himself badly but I don't think that is the kind of issue we are discussing here). Most likely if not all, it is just some stripped screws, the cost of which compared to the cost of most folding knives nowadays, is really little. We don't see the blade got broken, the handle shattered, the lockface ruined, etc. because of disassembly do we? And even if they did, nobody expected the warranty would cover it (hence, beyond of the scope of discussion here).

One way to look at that is to ask if you would like to receive that knife from a dealer, after someone else has disassembled it and put it back together. Maybe with your experience you'd think it wasn't a problem. But I'm sure many of the people in this forum would be unhappy knowing the knife isn't factory-fresh, much less if there were any damage at all.

So ... if Spyderco is lucky enough to have a dealer who even spots the problem and sends it to him, they then as noted in the OP have the cost of dealing with someone's learning experience with dis/assembling the knife. People seem not to be getting the point. I'd think it had to be a fairly big deal for Sal to raise it publicly.

So what's the creative solution, rather than just for or against? For example ... As some have noted - there are different kinds of owners. It helps to think about their needs and behaviors separately:

Maybe, without being elitist, a Spyderco club where people do have access to spare parts (a limited range); and they acknowledge a simple code of conduct that goes with it. You don't return knives that have been disassembled, don't resell the parts, etc. Maybe something else to make it worth a small fee - $20 a year. It could solve the issue for a lot of people, create some goodwill, and probably get some publicity to help spread the word on the underlying problem.

That, and a friendly note in the box for the the more mainstream buyers and users, might make some headway.​

I'd also be curious what people think about what to do if a knife arrives off center, stiff, or with some other issue. If you try to fix it and don't - then what? It seems like the answer is you keep it, or send it to Spyderco yourself (rather than to the dealer). If you can't live with the issue, you return it rather than trying to fix it.

 

[sharp_edge]

One way to look at that is to ask if you would like to receive that knife from a dealer, after someone else has disassembled it and put it back together. Maybe with your experience you'd think it wasn't a problem. But I'm sure many of the people in this forum would be unhappy knowing the knife isn't factory-fresh, much less if there were any damage at all.

So ... if Spyderco is lucky enough to have a dealer who even spots the problem and sends it to him, they then as noted in the OP have the cost of dealing with someone's learning experience with dis/assembling the knife. People seem not to be getting the point. I'd think it had to be a fairly big deal for Sal to raise it publicly.

So what's the creative solution, rather than just for or against? For example ... As some have noted - there are different kinds of owners. It helps to think about their needs and behaviors separately:

Maybe, without being elitist, a Spyderco club where people do have access to spare parts (a limited range); and they acknowledge a simple code of conduct that goes with it. You don't return knives that have been disassembled, don't resell the parts, etc. Maybe something else to make it worth a small fee - $20 a year. It could solve the issue for a lot of people, create some goodwill, and probably get some publicity to help spread the word on the underlying problem.

That, and a friendly note in the box for the the more mainstream buyers and users, might make some headway.​

I'd also be curious what people think about what to do if a knife arrives off center, stiff, or with some other issue. If you try to fix it and don't - then what? It seems like the answer is you keep it, or send it to Spyderco yourself (rather than to the dealer). If you can't live with the issue, you return it rather than trying to fix it.

I am not sure how your post is relevant to what I said in my post even though I agree to much of what you said. Dealers were never part of my post because any time a customer disessambles a knife, it should never be returned to the dealer, period.

We are discussing whether disassembling a knife should automatically void the warranty.

 

[sparky2016]

I am not sure how your post is relevant to what I said in my post even though I agree to much of what you said. Dealers were never part of my post because any time a customer disessambles a knife, it should never be returned to the dealer, period.

We are discussing whether disassembling a knife should automatically void the warranty.

Sal doesn't even mention warranty in his original post. He's raising other issues.

Your previous post nonetheless does read like a discussion of the main points of the thread:

With that being said, it appears to me that many other manufacturers have survived and succeeded by allowing customers to take apart their knives and even giving out free screws and washers and on top of that, they do not necessarily set their knife prices significantly higher than Spyderco. <snip> Shall a manufacture discourage or even disallow customers from taking apart the knives just because of a small percentage of incapable customers? I don't know.

Sal makes a persuasive case.

Back to the actual topic, the point was maybe there's a way to give the responsible, serious knife fans a solution and address the broader market another way.

 

[cbrstar]

I blame the internet...My other hobby is being a watchmaker, and over the last 10-15 years I keep seeing this huge increase of "tinkerers" that can't stand more then 5 mins without opening and then proceeding to destroy a perfectly good watch. If I only had a dollar every time I've heard " my watch was loosing 3 secs a day so I adjusted it and now it doesn't work".
I think the problem is twofold. One there's too many tutorials that make it sound easy, when it isn't if you don't have the dexterity. And two, the internet creates boredom which leads to hyper perfectionism. If you keep seeing something new everyday you quickly get bored of what you have. This leads to you wanting more out of what you own to justify it so you start fiddling with it

TL;DR
I think knives are no differen't then this.The internet creates boredom and perfectionism and people start messing with things that they shouldn't.

 

[Dogdrawz]

maybe there's a way to give the responsible, serious knife fans a solution and address the broader market another way.

I remember some manufactures selling knife kits. I believe these didn't come with any warranty either. Buy a kit, mess it up...no warranty.

 

[archieblue]

Maybe apply a small tamper evident sticker over the pivot or a small dab of paint inside the Torx hole after factory assembly/tuning which would be scratched if a tool bit is inserted and twisted.

 

[cbrstar]

In someways I think they should have parts kits available for at least us Canadians. Personally the warranty is meaningless to me, because I'm scared that it would get seized at the border if I sent it in for repair.

On the other hand I think they also need to control things like screws getting into the wrong peoples hands with all the fakes floating around these days.

 

[BMCGear]

So I guess I'm somewhere in the middle on this.

I think that people tend to get extreme with tinkering and I agree that youtube and the internet has made things worse. When I get a new knife I don't disassemble it and polish the washers etc. Sometimes a knife is stiff but I look at this as an opportunity to use it and break it in. It usually breaks in pretty quickly. Now with that being said - I do like to maintain my knives. If the knife gets really dirty or gritty it is nice to be able to take it apart and clean the knife. Before doing this I usually loosen the pivot and try to flush it without taking the knife apart. This usually corrects the issue and I apply some oil and re-tighten the pivot. Common sense goes a long way.

 

[on_the_edge]

I blame the internet...My other hobby is being a watchmaker, and over the last 10-15 years I keep seeing this huge increase of "tinkerers" that can't stand more then 5 mins without opening and then proceeding to destroy a perfectly good watch. If I only had a dollar every time I've heard " my watch was loosing 3 secs a day so I adjusted it and now it doesn't work".
I think the problem is twofold. One there's too many tutorials that make it sound easy, when it isn't if you don't have the dexterity. And two, the internet creates boredom which leads to hyper perfectionism. If you keep seeing something new everyday you quickly get bored of what you have. This leads to you wanting more out of what you own to justify it so you start fiddling with it

TL;DR
I think knives are no differen't then this.The internet creates boredom and perfectionism and people start messing with things that they shouldn't.

It's the "Home Depot" syndrome. People go there and wander around like lost puppies until, unable to find or decide what they want, they find an associate and start lobbing questions at her, which inevitably include things like "what's the best way to...?" and "how do I...?". If folks don't know what the heck they are doing, then they should not do what they are attempting to do. Taking a watch apart without knowing what you're doing??? If nothing else, at least ignorance on the part of some is providing you with an income stream.

 

[Danke42]

I blame the internet...My other hobby is being a watchmaker, and over the last 10-15 years I keep seeing this huge increase of "tinkerers" that can't stand more then 5 mins without opening and then proceeding to destroy a perfectly good watch. If I only had a dollar every time I've heard " my watch was loosing 3 secs a day so I adjusted it and now it doesn't work".
I think the problem is twofold. One there's too many tutorials that make it sound easy, when it isn't if you don't have the dexterity. And two, the internet creates boredom which leads to hyper perfectionism. If you keep seeing something new everyday you quickly get bored of what you have. This leads to you wanting more out of what you own to justify it so you start fiddling with it

TL;DR
I think knives are no differen't then this.The internet creates boredom and perfectionism and people start messing with things that they shouldn't.

Yes x about one million. And there's always a huge disconnect between said tinkering and the failure. They really think it was some pre-existing issue that caused the premature death. Dunning-Kruger effect run amok.

 

[danthaman1980]

It wasn't all that long ago that Spyderco themselves sold parts/repair kits for Delica 4s and Endura 4s. Part numbers C10KIT and C11KIT. http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=290 ...

So, it seems a few years ago disassembly wasn't so strongly discouraged, if at all (unless, of course, Spyderco would SELL parts kits on one hand and SIMULTANEOUSLY discourage people from taking their knives apart on the other... I don't think that's likely).

C'mon guys, let's figure this out. I can change the oil, spark plugs, battery, alternator, and tires on my chevy without voiding the powertrain warranty, but we're discussing whether taking apart a screw-construction folding knife to clean it might void the warranty automatically???

 

[rycen]

When the parts kits were sold disassembly was still strongly discouraged. They were sold in response to so many breaking the back spacer from improper reassembly. From memory

 

[ericlosh]

Oh well, worth a hot to ask. Thanks for your time. I sure appreciate any example we get along the way

 

[jbmonkey]

seems pretty simple. if I tinker and mess it up I'm on my own. if spyderco wants to help me fix my mess I should have to pay and expect to pay them for their time, materials, overhead and profits.

problem seems to be folks tinkering, messing it up and then expecting spyderco to spend money fixing it.

large corporate operations and box stores started this. letting folks return things they broke by misuse back for a new one or full refund, decades ago. now they see small business, large business as places that have money trees growing. I see this a lot in my business. folks look for someone to stick the tab to, as why should they have to pay the bill. plus companies have money trees growing so all they have to do is walk outside and pick up the money that fell off the tree.

its shameful behavior and I wonder who raised these people.......

 

[on_the_edge]

^^^It's a sense of entitlement along with a lack of taking responsibility/common sense. What a great combo.

 

[gamma_nyc]

I’m gonna propose a contrarian idea here, but maybe the solution is to make Spyderco knives easier to disassemble/reassemble. Not to make unfair comparisons, and I have not taken any Spyderco knives apart myself, but Chris Reeve knives are very easy to disassemble/assemble and I have not heard similar retailing problems (regarding tampered knives) from them.

Personally, if the tampering problem is driving up costs but not benefiting customers, that’s a business loss ahead. What if those same costs were allocated towards streamlining construction/design so that customers would receive an extra value in the form of simplicity, in addition to the higher cost? Maybe they would pay up similar to the Chris Reeve premium?

 

[cbrstar]

I’m gonna propose a contrarian idea here, but maybe the solution is to make Spyderco knives easier to disassemble/reassemble. Not to make unfair comparisons, and I have not taken any Spyderco knives apart myself, but Chris Reeve knives are very easy to disassemble/assemble and I have not heard similar retailing problems (regarding tampered knives) from them.

Personally, if the tampering problem is driving up costs but not benefiting customers, that’s a business loss ahead. What if those same costs were allocated towards streamlining construction/design so that customers would receive an extra value in the form of simplicity, in addition to the higher cost? Maybe they would pay up similar to the Chris Reeve premium?

I'm new to Spyderco, but I've at least noticed things like the screws are very good quality.
So I think some of the problem is just ineptness? People dropping parts and then never finding them, or there is people who just strip everything.
But ease of disassembly is a thing. I bought a used version CRKT's latest gimmick the home front. Which is supposed to be easily taken apart without tools but there's some thing wrong with mine and still requires a screw driver lol.
Honestly I feel like crkt is charging a huge premium for this ability, and its kinda a cheap gimmick.

 

[anycal]

I’m gonna propose a contrarian idea here, but maybe the solution is to make Spyderco knives easier to disassemble/reassemble. Not to make unfair comparisons, and I have not taken any Spyderco knives apart myself, but Chris Reeve knives are very easy to disassemble/assemble and I have not heard similar retailing problems (regarding tampered knives) from them.

Personally, if the tampering problem is driving up costs but not benefiting customers, that’s a business loss ahead. What if those same costs were allocated towards streamlining construction/design so that customers would receive an extra value in the form of simplicity, in addition to the higher cost? Maybe they would pay up similar to the Chris Reeve premium?

This would not address the issue noted by Sal in the first post,

'Every month we get back hundreds of knives that have been returned to dealers. These knives have been played with, taken apart, re-assembled and then returned to the dealer as "new" for a refund.'​

If you make it easier to take apart, which I don't think is that complicated in the first place - it's a knife, people will return 'easier to take apart knives' to dealers. I don't want to buy a 'new' knife which has been anywhere near a tool.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Anycal,

I think most purchasing a new product would agree with you.

sal

 

[Sonnydaze]

Sal, interesting dilemma...for you and for us... BTW, you are my favorite CEO in the world...
I would imagine...short of a bunch of LocTite, that you can add a "witness" mark in the knife that will show that it has been taken apart...perhaps a mark on the blade near the grip.
The witness mark would have to be immediately visible to all, without taking the knife apart...again. But, the mark would not have to be "ugly." That would also be helpful on the Exchange for members wish to buy a knife that has NOT been disassembled.
Then...if taken apart,...no need for lies, no refund, no exchange...
Don