Talk me out of it... .32 Tomcat

[Samael]

Someone correct if I'm wrong, I'm not a gun expert, but I believe I've read and been told you don't want to try for a head shot with a lighter round because it's more likely to deflect, plus if you aim for the center of the chest you have a bigger target and are more likely to at least hit something with a short barrel compact pistol.

Yeah, you're not wrong - you can get a ricochet off the skull. But it doesn't really happen very often, unless you've got a .22 (and even then it's not all that common). Nevertheless, I've seen it happen.

The "center of body mass" thing is almost ways the best advice. But. For .380 and under, the penetrating ability of those rounds is just so sub-standard that I can't really recommend it.

It's sorta like stabbing somebody with a 2" blade. Odds are that, even if it works, you're not going to neutralize anybody with it.

 

[STAGE 2]

For .380 and under, the penetrating ability of those rounds is just so sub-standard that I can't really recommend it.

It's sorta like stabbing somebody with a 2" blade. Odds are that, even if it works, you're not going to neutralize anybody with it.

With all due respect, this is complete poppycock. Graveyards are full of people who were planted by these two calibers. Americans have a fascination with larger calibers, and thats great because they get the job done. However that doesn't mean that lesser calibers are useless.

On average a .32 HP will penetration 10-11 inches. .32 ball will penetrate 14-15 inches. Thats hardly the same as a 2" knife.

All handguns are anemic where firearms are concerned. In that respect, its the indian and not the arrow. If you do your part, then the round will do its.

 

[Samael]

Hey, that's cool. Everybody has a right to their own opinion.

Mine is based on 32 years' worth of real shootings and autopsies. But, you know, if yours is better than that, I'm always willing to learn something new.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

ruger, kahr, and kel-tec have better offerings in larger calibers.

 

[tongueriver]

A good friend of mine was surprised to see a man give another man a little push in the chest. He had actually stabbed him in the heart with a teeny tiny knife and the victim fell down and died in about half a minute. Both were drunkenly stumbling about and presented no danger to anyone else. Meanwhile, thousands of people have been shot with .22 shorts and .32's, etc. etc., and died, in a while. Grizzly bears, lions, and moose have been killed with similar toy guns. The renowned Winchester 94 in 30-30 caliber has killed hundreds of thousands of big game and dangerous big game. All that said, they and their ilk are hopelessly inadequate. Because, you see, you can shoot a big big man in the heart with a .32 about three times, quickly, and he will take it away from you and beat you to death with it before he falls to the floor. 99% of this discussion is by people who don't have a clue. Samael may be the exception. By the way a statistical analysis of defensive shootings suggests that most shots taken at an aggressor are something like 6 feet away, and most are misses. This whole conversation is quite amusing to me.

 

[ROCK6]

A good friend of mine was surprised to see a man give another man a little push in the chest. He had actually stabbed him in the heart with a teeny tiny knife and the victim fell down and died in about half a minute. Both were drunkenly stumbling about and presented no danger to anyone else. Meanwhile, thousands of people have been shot with .22 shorts and .32's, etc. etc., and died, in a while. Grizzly bears, lions, and moose have been killed with similar toy guns. The renowned Winchester 94 in 30-30 caliber has killed hundreds of thousands of big game and dangerous big game. All that said, they and their ilk are hopelessly inadequate. Because, you see, you can shoot a big big man in the heart with a .32 about three times, quickly, and he will take it away from you and beat you to death with it before he falls to the floor. 99% of this discussion is by people who don't have a clue. Samael may be the exception. By the way a statistical analysis of defensive shootings suggests that most shots taken at an aggressor are something like 6 feet away, and most are misses. This whole conversation is quite amusing to me.

I don't want to debate the effectiveness of the .32 ACP (I own a Kel-Tec P32) as they can fill a niche in some situations; however, my Brother-In-Law (deputy sheriff) told me an interesting story this weekend. He was the first on the scene following a shooting altercation (over a woman as usual). Anyways, he rushes up the steps to the bar, he sees a guy sitting on the porch of the bar...he enters the bar and everybody is just drinking and talking as usual. He asks "whats up?" and gets told the guy who was shot is sitting outside.

Sure enough, the guy who was shot was sitting there with some blood on his face and a washcloth. The shooter busted in and pointed a .25ACP about 3 feet away and shot him in the head. The bullet hit him directly in the forehead, penetrated the skin and traveled under the skin (but not penetrating the skull) to the top of his head, where it stopped. My BIL was pretty amazed, but if it hit an eye or near the nose, it could have been much worse. I guess the moral of the story is know the limitations of what you carry...and .25 ACP isn't the best for one-shot-stops

ROCK6

 

[Sid Post]

With all due respect, this is complete poppycock. Graveyards are full of people who were planted by these two calibers. Americans have a fascination with larger calibers, and thats great because they get the job done. However that doesn't mean that lesser calibers are useless.

On average a .32 HP will penetration 10-11 inches. .32 ball will penetrate 14-15 inches. Thats hardly the same as a 2" knife.

All handguns are anemic where firearms are concerned. In that respect, its the indian and not the arrow. If you do your part, then the round will do its.

It really also depends on the situation. Was the person shot on drugs? Wearing motorcycle leathers? etc.

If I'm ever involved in a deadly force encounter, a fatal wound that kills 30 minutes later doesn't stop the fight. In that thirty minutes the person shot could still bludgeon someone to death. Sure he/she will die, EVENTUALLY. Do I really care while the bludgeoning is occurring?

 

[Infi-del]

Someone correct if I'm wrong, I'm not a gun expert, but I believe I've read and been told you don't want to try for a head shot with a lighter round because it's more likely to deflect, plus if you aim for the center of the chest you have a bigger target and are more likely to at least hit something with a short barrel compact pistol.

Headshots can be a good way to hey into trouble depending on what state you live in. They can say murder more than self defense jury.

To the OP, Get a Kahr MK9 or PM9. Don't fool around with a 32.

 

[Samael]

Headshots can be a good way to hey into trouble depending on what state you live in. They can say murder more than self defense jury.

Certainly, that used to be the case back in the olden days. Thankfully, the legal system is a little more enlightened these days, and as long as you can show that lethal force was justified, it's pretty rare any more to have to justify how the lethal force was used. I'm not saying it could never happen; just that it's a lot more rare than it used to be.

 

[Shann]

I don't want to debate the effectiveness of the .32 ACP (I own a Kel-Tec P32) as they can fill a niche in some situations; however, my Brother-In-Law (deputy sheriff) told me an interesting story this weekend. He was the first on the scene following a shooting altercation (over a woman as usual). Anyways, he rushes up the steps to the bar, he sees a guy sitting on the porch of the bar...he enters the bar and everybody is just drinking and talking as usual. He asks "whats up?" and gets told the guy who was shot is sitting outside.

Sure enough, the guy who was shot was sitting there with some blood on his face and a washcloth. The shooter busted in and pointed a .25ACP about 3 feet away and shot him in the head. The bullet hit him directly in the forehead, penetrated the skin and traveled under the skin (but not penetrating the skull) to the top of his head, where it stopped. My BIL was pretty amazed, but if it hit an eye or near the nose, it could have been much worse. I guess the moral of the story is know the limitations of what you carry...and .25 ACP isn't the best for one-shot-stops

ROCK6

My all time favorite picture in my local paper showed a big fat guy in a wife beater holding a towel to his head. The caption read "****, alleged drug dealer, shortly after being shot in the head in a drug deal gone bad". He basically looked liked he'd been punched in the side of the head, not shot. I have no idea what kind of gun.

 

[lumpymike1]

I am very greatful for all of the advice I have gotten. And the result is...I'll think about it some more.

I have tested both the tomcat while the trigger feels a bit odd, it feels "good" (subjective to me). I also but 50 rounds through a rented Khar and it felt awkward. Again subjective.

I wish I could get or try a little Kel-tec, but I live in the PRK...I do like my SU-16 for what it is.

Again I am greatful for all of the advice and if I do go for it I plan on laying in a supply of the silver tips. Cheaper than dirt seems to have a good deal on them.

 

[red1965]

After glancing at the posts here I think the point that is being missed is the Tomcat (which I do own one) is not a weapon that is used for aimed, distance fire. This is a "I have really screwed the pooch and let this goober get way to close to me" weapon. Your other form of defense, be it what may, has failed in some sort of way and now you are at contact distance. This is not target pistol or the latest wonder gun. This is a weapon that you almost touch the offending party and pull the trigger repeatedly. Headshots? If its about an inch away from the temple or eyeball by all means. Same for center of mass. Lets be realistic at the firearms purpose. You wouldn't try to cut down a redwood with a SAK.

 

[STAGE 2]

Hey, that's cool. Everybody has a right to their own opinion.

Mine is based on 32 years' worth of real shootings and autopsies. But, you know, if yours is better than that, I'm always willing to learn something new.

Then you should know that there is no such thing as a handgun that is a "one shot stop". There are folks that have died with a single round of .22 and folks that have been shot with a .44 mag and been fine. ALL handguns are anemic comparatively speaking.

With that in mind, contrary to what you've said, a .32 has no problem penetrating past the recommended 12" to hit vitals. No doubt there are examples where a .32 has failed to incapacitate an attacker. However I can point to any caliber and show the same results. Thats a handgun problem, not a .32 problem.

The issue is training, and shot placement. If you do your part, it will do its.

 

[STAGE 2]

It really also depends on the situation. Was the person shot on drugs? Wearing motorcycle leathers? etc.

If I'm ever involved in a deadly force encounter, a fatal wound that kills 30 minutes later doesn't stop the fight. In that thirty minutes the person shot could still bludgeon someone to death. Sure he/she will die, EVENTUALLY. Do I really care while the bludgeoning is occurring?

No, but a larger caliber doesn't guarantee what you are looking for. In order to incapacitate, you have to hit the vitals. That holds true regardless. A simple google search will result in many stories of people being shot with "acceptable calibers" but failing to go down simply because the shooters didn't do their job.

And then theres the issue of actually carrying the thing. The pea shooter in your pocket is going to serve you better then the cannon you left at home.

 

[Superfuzz]

Go to a Range that has a variety of pistols you can rent to shoot. This will allow you to check it out for yourself prior to buying. Before I got stationed in Germany my normal carry was a lightly customized Glock 23 and my hot weather edc was a custom melted/carry NAA Guardian in in .32...I like the cartridge, as long as you do your part. That being said...

zenheretic turned me on to the Kahr .380. Heavier cartidge in a similar package. If you insist on carrying a small calibre edc I reccomend this as an option.

***edit***

I see you already tried the Kahr. Might I ask which one? I own a K40 and it is an extremely well built, solid pistol. A bit on the heavy side but a pleasure to shoot. I will definately be picking up the Kahr .380, when I get home. PM9 is speaking to me too.

I say give it a try...pick one up. If you dont like it you can generally get most of your money back on a Beretta, like that. Good luck to you.

 

[Superfuzz]

And then theres the issue of actually carrying the thing. The pea shooter in your pocket is going to serve you better then the cannon you left at home.

First Rule of Gunfighting...

Have a Gun


That is all...

 

[hoopster]

I'd rather have the kel-tec in .32 or .380. I carry the .380 and it's been very reliable. I really like the Kahr PM-9's but when compared to the Kel-tec P3at it is considerably larger, twice as much money, and I'm assuming heavier.

 

[Infi-del]

Certainly, that used to be the case back in the olden days. Thankfully, the legal system is a little more enlightened these days, and as long as you can show that lethal force was justified, it's pretty rare any more to have to justify how the lethal force was used. I'm not saying it could never happen; just that it's a lot more rare than it used to be.

I live in Georgia so I don't think it would be a problem. But I wouldn't try it in California or New York. Plus in a stressful situation I like as big a target as possible. I'll take a mag dump center mass every time.

 

[Infi-del]

After glancing at the posts here I think the point that is being missed is the Tomcat (which I do own one) is not a weapon that is used for aimed, distance fire. This is a "I have really screwed the pooch and let this goober get way to close to me" weapon. Your other form of defense, be it what may, has failed in some sort of way and now you are at contact distance. This is not target pistol or the latest wonder gun. This is a weapon that you almost touch the offending party and pull the trigger repeatedly. Headshots? If its about an inch away from the temple or eyeball by all means. Same for center of mass. Lets be realistic at the firearms purpose. You wouldn't try to cut down a redwood with a SAK.

True enough. But at PB Distances I would still rather have a 380 or preferably a 9mm than a 32. A Kahr PM9 can be deployed the same way (Close range get off me gun) and it's bite is a lot worse. And if you know how to properly carry a gun there is no carry benefit to the Tomcat over the Kahr. But to each his own. Seems like Kel-tecs and Kahrs have been mentioned in this thread a lot. Of the three my preference would be Kahr first, Kel-Tec Second, and the Tomcat last if there was just nothing else to get.

 

[Infi-del]

I'd rather have the kel-tec in .32 or .380. I carry the .380 and it's been very reliable. I really like the Kahr PM-9's but when compared to the Kel-tec P3at it is considerably larger, twice as much money, and I'm assuming heavier.

The PM9 is about the same size as the Kel-Tec PF-9... those are the comparable models from each brand. I owned a PF-9 and sold it after getting my PM9... which I sold after getting my MK9. The Kahr really is superior to the Kel-Tec in every way. Especially shooting actual defense ammo. Some +P ammo in the Kel-Tec was not a good outing for the weapon. It nearly beat itself to death. There were actual metal shavings inside the gun where the slide was pounding against the frame in the rearward position. The Kahr eats +P+ just fine. As I said earlier if you are well versed in carrying a weapon properly... all these sub compacts are about the same carry wise. I don't find a P3AT any easier to conceal than an MK9. The MK9 is heavier... but we're only talking ounces here.

Plus I like the fact that the Kahr can take night sights. IMHO a carry gun without night sights is a bad idea. Some disagree. I have night sights on every firearm I own.