-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?
- Thread starter copfish
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
I'll try to summarize what I was able to gather from this long thread
Surely any comments are welcome.
1) Talonite can be sharpened what one would call a "Razor" or "Crazy" sharp.
2) However it will loose that sharpness faster than conventional steel.
3) Talonite will keep what's left after razor edge longer than conventional steel
4) The statement above(#3) is true for "soft" materials only(?)
5) On harder materials Talonite will roll & deform, due to its low RC (or relative softness, if you will compared to conventional steels).
6) Talonite is truly stainless due to absence of presence of Iron
7) Whether or not the above 6 points make Talonite a great blade material is strictly a matter of one's personal opinion + needs + preferences, probably mood too
8) There is no "the best steel for every purpose ever" & I personally don't want one to exist, the constant search for perfection it is much more interesting & useful too
That's my IMHO...
------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 07-26-2000).]
1) Talonite can be sharpened what one would call a "Razor" or "Crazy" sharp.
2) However it will loose that sharpness faster than conventional steel.
3) Talonite will keep what's left after razor edge longer than conventional steel
4) The statement above(#3) is true for "soft" materials only(?)
5) On harder materials Talonite will roll & deform, due to its low RC (or relative softness, if you will compared to conventional steels).
6) Talonite is truly stainless due to absence of presence of Iron
7) Whether or not the above 6 points make Talonite a great blade material is strictly a matter of one's personal opinion + needs + preferences, probably mood too
8) There is no "the best steel for every purpose ever" & I personally don't want one to exist, the constant search for perfection it is much more interesting & useful too
------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 07-26-2000).]
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 7,147
I am beginning to think that it all boils down to this:
In my experience and knowledge, there isn't a material on the face of this earth that is suitable for a knife blade that will maintain a shaving edge for any length of time, if it is used to cut anything more substaintial than paper thin plastic wrapping. This excludes diamond, glass, obsidian, and other materials that may be able to attain a shaving edge, yet is so brittle that ANY impact stress will break the material immediately. So, after that shaving edge -- be it "wire edge" or whatever nomenclature you want to use -- is gone, there is a second level of sharpness that we all have separately come to accept as still quite sharp. Or usably sharp. "Acceptably" sharp. I think that this "acceptable" sharpness probably varies from person to person; sharper for some, duller for some, very probably QUITE dull for some people that are not totally knuts about knives. After this thread of 220 posts (which I THINK that I have managed to read all of them), it seems that with rare exception, Talonite maintains a sufficiently sharp edge (after the shaving edge is gone), for a sufficiently long time, to impress the hell out of what appear to be (or at least think of themselves to be), quite authoritative on the subject of knives and sharpness.
I just hope that when I get my first Talonite blade, I don't find myself to be one of those damn rare exceptions that just can't be satisfied with a "sufficiently" sharp edge!!!
------------------
iktomi
In my experience and knowledge, there isn't a material on the face of this earth that is suitable for a knife blade that will maintain a shaving edge for any length of time, if it is used to cut anything more substaintial than paper thin plastic wrapping. This excludes diamond, glass, obsidian, and other materials that may be able to attain a shaving edge, yet is so brittle that ANY impact stress will break the material immediately. So, after that shaving edge -- be it "wire edge" or whatever nomenclature you want to use -- is gone, there is a second level of sharpness that we all have separately come to accept as still quite sharp. Or usably sharp. "Acceptably" sharp. I think that this "acceptable" sharpness probably varies from person to person; sharper for some, duller for some, very probably QUITE dull for some people that are not totally knuts about knives. After this thread of 220 posts (which I THINK that I have managed to read all of them), it seems that with rare exception, Talonite maintains a sufficiently sharp edge (after the shaving edge is gone), for a sufficiently long time, to impress the hell out of what appear to be (or at least think of themselves to be), quite authoritative on the subject of knives and sharpness.
I just hope that when I get my first Talonite blade, I don't find myself to be one of those damn rare exceptions that just can't be satisfied with a "sufficiently" sharp edge!!!
------------------
iktomi
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
there isn't a material on the face of this earth that is suitable for a knife blade that will maintain a shaving edge for any length of time, if it is used to cut anything more substaintial than paper thin plastic wrapping.
Not sure about "any length" here + cardboard is quite dulling thing for blades, I mean even though being far from an expert, still I was able to sharpen myself my Nimravus M2, so it could maintains shaving sharp edge for "some time", including cardboard & wood cutting. I don't mean split second intervals here either
I just hope that when I get my first Talonite blade, I don't find myself to be one of those damn rare exceptions that just can't be satisfied with a "sufficiently" sharp edge!!!
Depends what is "sufficient" for a person & the task given
------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 07-26-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Hey, the razor thing makes an excellent illustration of the difference between steel and Talonite (IMHO). Simply put, steel would make a much better razor. I think all implications regarding edge durability and sharpenability that can be drawn from that statement are valid.
Steel also makes a better axe.
In between, it's all up to the individual.
Steel also makes a better axe.
In between, it's all up to the individual.
Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Rockspyder, your last post is what I feel is a good overall statement, same with you Steve!
Oh yea, I just got off a 4 day canoeing trip through the Missouri breaks and used my personal Talonite knife for all tasks that came about, and it performed nicely, and never required a touchup. Of course this is just another meaningless real field test!
------------------
www.simonichknives.com
Oh yea, I just got off a 4 day canoeing trip through the Missouri breaks and used my personal Talonite knife for all tasks that came about, and it performed nicely, and never required a touchup. Of course this is just another meaningless real field test!
------------------
www.simonichknives.com
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
No fair, Rob! There's no concrete in the Missouri Breaks. How can you properly test a knife without concrete?
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
Now if it was up to cliff, Rob, he eould want you to take a 50lb. concrete cinder block with you on the canoe trip so you could "PROPERLY" test your knife's performance. In the mean time I'll take your test over his any day - it relates to how the knife will be used day-to-day. All 8(soon to be 9) of my Talonite knives & 1 Stellite are doing fantastic - they keep on cutting well past when you would think they should be dull and so easy to maintain/restore a super edge. to quote Tom M. "Talonite Rules!!!!".
Rob, glad you're back - now about those "BUSHIDO" camp knives? Just curious? I am/will be very patient but just wondering when might expect them? If it turns out as nice as I think it will I will have to get one in Talonite down the road to compare to the 3V ones.
Bill
Rob, glad you're back - now about those "BUSHIDO" camp knives? Just curious? I am/will be very patient but just wondering when might expect them? If it turns out as nice as I think it will I will have to get one in Talonite down the road to compare to the 3V ones.
Bill
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,783
A test doesn't have to be done in a laboratory by a man wearing a white coat to be meaningful, or involve concrete, either, but the report has to contain some information....
Rob carried it for 4 days and used it for "all tasks that came about." The way some people camp these days they could go four days or more and never use a knife at all.... Just because I know Rob from other posts I can guess he probably did use it for something during those 4 days, but who knows what? Or how much of it?
He didn't think it was dull enough to need a touchup after whatever he did with it. Some people think a knife is adequately sharp if it's so dull you could hack at your own arm with full-power chops and not break the skin -- we all know people like that. I can guess Rob's standard is higher than that, but how much higher?
If he had brought a $4 Jaguar with him too and done half his work with that then the test might have indicated the knife was better than a $4 Jaguar ... as it stands the report doesn't even indicate that. The lack of concrete-chopping tests in a laboratory is not what makes that report "just another meaningless real field test."
Although I've seen numerous posts saying things like Talonite rulez or it goes on cutting cardboard or meat forever (just like a plastic picnic knife) ... I want some information, damnit!
I guess I'll just have to find out for myself....
-Cougar :{)
Rob carried it for 4 days and used it for "all tasks that came about." The way some people camp these days they could go four days or more and never use a knife at all.... Just because I know Rob from other posts I can guess he probably did use it for something during those 4 days, but who knows what? Or how much of it?
He didn't think it was dull enough to need a touchup after whatever he did with it. Some people think a knife is adequately sharp if it's so dull you could hack at your own arm with full-power chops and not break the skin -- we all know people like that. I can guess Rob's standard is higher than that, but how much higher?
If he had brought a $4 Jaguar with him too and done half his work with that then the test might have indicated the knife was better than a $4 Jaguar ... as it stands the report doesn't even indicate that. The lack of concrete-chopping tests in a laboratory is not what makes that report "just another meaningless real field test."
Although I've seen numerous posts saying things like Talonite rulez or it goes on cutting cardboard or meat forever (just like a plastic picnic knife) ... I want some information, damnit!
I guess I'll just have to find out for myself....
-Cougar :{)
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
Pardon me PENGUIN, if I have missed something, but where does that concrete block come from? Did I miss Cliff's post requiring a concrete block to test talonite or some other alloy?
In the mean time I'll take your test over his
Could you please be more specific, what test over which one?
I'll try to explain my point, to me(may be because I am a programer
As of general statements, like: "I cut a lot & it still feels pretty sharp", or more interesting examples like, "it feels dull but sharp", it's all too personal & opinionated
Words like a lot, little bit, some, few are hmm, less descriptive may be
That's my IMHO.
Interestingly enough, many Talonits proponents claim, that Talonite preforms very well on Cardboard, at least, better than other high end steels. However, the tests, conducted by Cliff doesn't show exactly that picture, for not even so high end steels either.
I don't have my talonit blade yet, hopefully I'll be getting one within next 4-5 months or so. I am curious
I'll do my own tests & it will be cardboard & some wood probably, living in bay area I have no heards running around & don't feel like spending few hundreds $ to buy a meet for testing
------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Bob :
[referring to the non-shaving edge]
Yes, the rate of blunting slows down very quickly as a blade blunts. However it does this for all materials it is not a property that only Talonite has. To get specific, after cutting 1000 cm of carboard my 10V blade had blunted so that its cutting ability was reduced and it required 100% more force to cut the test material (Talonite had suffered a 250% increase). After an additional 3000 more cm, the necessary force was increased by only about 25 % (28% for Talonite). So after cutting 3x as much material the blunting was only 1/4 as much for 10V (for Talonite less than 1/16). This rate of blunting will continue to slow down as more material is cut.
This "low high volume blunting" effect is one of the most often promoted aspect of Talonite. Those who use it would have you believe that Talonite is the only thing that does it - this is false. All materials do it because of specific physical principals. The rate of blunting by wear and rolling slows as the edge is deformed and wears. As an edge rolls thicker steel needs to bend in order for more rolling to take place thus it takes longer to bend it - same with wear, the more you wear away the larger the area that needs to be worn and thus the longer to wear it. Thus the rate of blunting is proportional to the performance level and thus it is an exponential decrease.
Now it is possible that Talonite will overtake a high quality steel in the long run, from what I have seen this seems to be the case. However at the point I stopped in the above case (all others are usually similar) the 10V blade was at 50% of its initial ability and the Talonite at 25%. With a blade at 25% you have to do 4x as much work to make a cut. How much of an advantage is it to be able to hold edges of such low performance and why would you want to be using it in this state anyway?
Rockspyder :
Try a high strength, tough, wear resistant steel heat treated by a maker who can bring out the necessary abilities. The CPM's from from Ed Schott and Phil Wilson or INFI from Busse Combat.
Gator97 :
While I have not chopped concrete with the edge of a knife (did with a Stellite chisel)
I have done similar high stress things as it lets me visually examine the ductility, strength and impact strength on a macroscopic scale. It is far from necessary, you can examine the same properties with lower stress work, you just need to do a much higher volume. So basically I can take a mild steel rod and chop into it a dozen times and see what happens in comparision to a few other blades, or I can go out and do about 10 000 chops into some wood and examine the edges under a microscope. I do the latter anyway, the steel chopping just lets me get a quick impression which is of greater magnitude and thus a more precise relative performance estimate, and provides a reference for someone who doesn't have that much wood on hand.
The ironic thing is that I never said that I had blades that could do these kinds of things and remain sharp - but many makers did and supported claims by users. In fact I described the damage that it did do to my blades in detail and the work that it would take to remove such dents and chips. However the makers that were using such things to promote their material : Ralph, Hossom and Mayo are now making statements about how stressful it is and that blades should not be used to do these kinds of things as they will get damaged - something I described all along while they repeatily stated that their blades could handle it without harm. Cold Steel takes the same approach : our knives can do XXX without harm - if you do XXX your warrenty is voided as XXX is very abusive - but remember out knives can do XXX.
Cougar the blade was sent out over a week ago, it is in serious need of sharpening and you should grind it a little past a burr to remove the weakened metal. I would go with 50 - 100 extra strokes on an x-coarse hone when setting the bevel.
HJK, Cougar is welcome to try this with the MEUK, it doesn't have much mass for chopping but it can easily be used as an icepick. I doubt that this will do anything. The material is very tough and ductile.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-28-2000).]
[referring to the non-shaving edge]
Yes, the rate of blunting slows down very quickly as a blade blunts. However it does this for all materials it is not a property that only Talonite has. To get specific, after cutting 1000 cm of carboard my 10V blade had blunted so that its cutting ability was reduced and it required 100% more force to cut the test material (Talonite had suffered a 250% increase). After an additional 3000 more cm, the necessary force was increased by only about 25 % (28% for Talonite). So after cutting 3x as much material the blunting was only 1/4 as much for 10V (for Talonite less than 1/16). This rate of blunting will continue to slow down as more material is cut.
This "low high volume blunting" effect is one of the most often promoted aspect of Talonite. Those who use it would have you believe that Talonite is the only thing that does it - this is false. All materials do it because of specific physical principals. The rate of blunting by wear and rolling slows as the edge is deformed and wears. As an edge rolls thicker steel needs to bend in order for more rolling to take place thus it takes longer to bend it - same with wear, the more you wear away the larger the area that needs to be worn and thus the longer to wear it. Thus the rate of blunting is proportional to the performance level and thus it is an exponential decrease.
Now it is possible that Talonite will overtake a high quality steel in the long run, from what I have seen this seems to be the case. However at the point I stopped in the above case (all others are usually similar) the 10V blade was at 50% of its initial ability and the Talonite at 25%. With a blade at 25% you have to do 4x as much work to make a cut. How much of an advantage is it to be able to hold edges of such low performance and why would you want to be using it in this state anyway?
Rockspyder :
Try a high strength, tough, wear resistant steel heat treated by a maker who can bring out the necessary abilities. The CPM's from from Ed Schott and Phil Wilson or INFI from Busse Combat.
Gator97 :
While I have not chopped concrete with the edge of a knife (did with a Stellite chisel)
I have done similar high stress things as it lets me visually examine the ductility, strength and impact strength on a macroscopic scale. It is far from necessary, you can examine the same properties with lower stress work, you just need to do a much higher volume. So basically I can take a mild steel rod and chop into it a dozen times and see what happens in comparision to a few other blades, or I can go out and do about 10 000 chops into some wood and examine the edges under a microscope. I do the latter anyway, the steel chopping just lets me get a quick impression which is of greater magnitude and thus a more precise relative performance estimate, and provides a reference for someone who doesn't have that much wood on hand.
The ironic thing is that I never said that I had blades that could do these kinds of things and remain sharp - but many makers did and supported claims by users. In fact I described the damage that it did do to my blades in detail and the work that it would take to remove such dents and chips. However the makers that were using such things to promote their material : Ralph, Hossom and Mayo are now making statements about how stressful it is and that blades should not be used to do these kinds of things as they will get damaged - something I described all along while they repeatily stated that their blades could handle it without harm. Cold Steel takes the same approach : our knives can do XXX without harm - if you do XXX your warrenty is voided as XXX is very abusive - but remember out knives can do XXX.
Cougar the blade was sent out over a week ago, it is in serious need of sharpening and you should grind it a little past a burr to remove the weakened metal. I would go with 50 - 100 extra strokes on an x-coarse hone when setting the bevel.
HJK, Cougar is welcome to try this with the MEUK, it doesn't have much mass for chopping but it can easily be used as an icepick. I doubt that this will do anything. The material is very tough and ductile.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-28-2000).]
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,783
The knife arrived today. I'll post my test results in a new thread when I get a chance to start some testing -- this thread is long enough IMHO....
My initial impression is I like Allen Blade's work (this is the first opportunity I've had to handle one of his knives.)
-Cougar :{)
My initial impression is I like Allen Blade's work (this is the first opportunity I've had to handle one of his knives.)
-Cougar :{)
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 7,147
Cliff wrote:
Hmmmm.... I might buy that. Maybe. I admit I was being a little exaggerative when I said anything more than "paper thin plastic wrapping." But, after being SO disappointed with the performance of the 440V in my Native and Military, I'm skeptical of even INFI, and ESPECIALLY anything made with CPM, unless it is hardened more than what Spyderco employs. And yes, I'm VERY skeptical of the Talonite. But, I should be able to do my own evaluation very soon, because I just dropped some bux for a Talon. So, maybe all of you should be prepared for more whining to the scale of my "staple event." NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TRY CUTTING ANY STAPLES WITH TALONITE! I think everyone can agree that it wouldn't like that much at all.
------------------
iktomi
Hmmmm.... I might buy that. Maybe. I admit I was being a little exaggerative when I said anything more than "paper thin plastic wrapping." But, after being SO disappointed with the performance of the 440V in my Native and Military, I'm skeptical of even INFI, and ESPECIALLY anything made with CPM, unless it is hardened more than what Spyderco employs. And yes, I'm VERY skeptical of the Talonite. But, I should be able to do my own evaluation very soon, because I just dropped some bux for a Talon. So, maybe all of you should be prepared for more whining to the scale of my "staple event." NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TRY CUTTING ANY STAPLES WITH TALONITE! I think everyone can agree that it wouldn't like that much at all.
------------------
iktomi
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
Dear Cliff
Are you stupid ? Can you read? I thought you and I had an understanding?
Folding knives are not ment to jack up cars!
Straight 3/16 in thick fighters are not ment to pry open safe doors. Thats the point Cliff. If you tested knives for the intended purpose you would have a claim here . BUT you are uneducated as to the intent and purpose of a knife as the tool it was ment to be used as. How I test my knives can be justified. I am a knifemaker . I want the best product I can offer. YOU on the other hand are a wannabe knifemaker.
I feel it is a good thing for my product to be tested by professionals.
Then I know what how they will preform. This information is for my customers, my records and for protection from wannbes like you who think they understand my comments. I would never recommend cutting a rock or steel with my knives UNLESS I BUILT THE KNIFE TO DO JUST THAT. There is a difference in steel performance and knife performance by style. Once again you cant see that. I want to know that the steel I use is heat treated right for one and good enough to put my name on it for two. I need this information. You on the other hand use it to promote you stardom.
Thats the point as I have stated before Cliff. You are uneducated about the intended purpose of different type of knives. I must say you know about choppers . Thats it though. Knives have more to them then you will ever understand .
Well Cliff here are my thoughts on your hype comment.
I let the people who test and own my knives drive my direction for improvements and for my test records.
Now,,,, I said I have knives tested and I just say one thing to the tester when the knife is sent. I want an honest report and beat the hell out of it. I only pick the people that are honest and give real feed back.
My point with MY testing is to make sure that my testing is not bias and is close to the testers .
When you cause a stir Cliff, as you always do TV boy, one just has to prove that your are the uneducated Self appointed expert that you are.
Does it bother you that I have an opinion Cliff. I base what I say on fact not on fantasy like you.
You say what you want about others but from this point forward I wont stand for your BS anymore.
Slander me again PLEASE Mr Knife Sheriff.
You just cant stand that I would never send you anything for testing because you are a cheap M.F. and dont know a real knife from your dick.
Your the hypemaster Cliff. Must be not getting enough attention lately so you stir the forums up again for TV ratings. What time is your TV show on? Do you have a movie yet? Go destroy a good working tool for no good reason so you can feel like a hero
What is your purpose Cliff . Good makers and factories dont need your information. Its mostly bogus anyway. Its great for a chuckle.
BTW Cliff I want to invite you or anyone who wants, to come to my shop to make a knife.
We'll test every steel in the shop if ya want.
Bet ya dont come Cliffy. This is not TV. No Ratings here.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-28-2000).]
Are you stupid ? Can you read? I thought you and I had an understanding?
Folding knives are not ment to jack up cars!
Straight 3/16 in thick fighters are not ment to pry open safe doors. Thats the point Cliff. If you tested knives for the intended purpose you would have a claim here . BUT you are uneducated as to the intent and purpose of a knife as the tool it was ment to be used as. How I test my knives can be justified. I am a knifemaker . I want the best product I can offer. YOU on the other hand are a wannabe knifemaker.
I feel it is a good thing for my product to be tested by professionals.
Then I know what how they will preform. This information is for my customers, my records and for protection from wannbes like you who think they understand my comments. I would never recommend cutting a rock or steel with my knives UNLESS I BUILT THE KNIFE TO DO JUST THAT. There is a difference in steel performance and knife performance by style. Once again you cant see that. I want to know that the steel I use is heat treated right for one and good enough to put my name on it for two. I need this information. You on the other hand use it to promote you stardom.
Thats the point as I have stated before Cliff. You are uneducated about the intended purpose of different type of knives. I must say you know about choppers . Thats it though. Knives have more to them then you will ever understand .
Well Cliff here are my thoughts on your hype comment.
I let the people who test and own my knives drive my direction for improvements and for my test records.
Now,,,, I said I have knives tested and I just say one thing to the tester when the knife is sent. I want an honest report and beat the hell out of it. I only pick the people that are honest and give real feed back.
My point with MY testing is to make sure that my testing is not bias and is close to the testers .
When you cause a stir Cliff, as you always do TV boy, one just has to prove that your are the uneducated Self appointed expert that you are.
Does it bother you that I have an opinion Cliff. I base what I say on fact not on fantasy like you.
You say what you want about others but from this point forward I wont stand for your BS anymore.
Slander me again PLEASE Mr Knife Sheriff.
You just cant stand that I would never send you anything for testing because you are a cheap M.F. and dont know a real knife from your dick.
Your the hypemaster Cliff. Must be not getting enough attention lately so you stir the forums up again for TV ratings. What time is your TV show on? Do you have a movie yet? Go destroy a good working tool for no good reason so you can feel like a hero
BTW Cliff I want to invite you or anyone who wants, to come to my shop to make a knife.
We'll test every steel in the shop if ya want.
Bet ya dont come Cliffy. This is not TV. No Ratings here.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-28-2000).]
- Status