Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?

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Neil,
Last I checked Stellite was MORE expensive than TALONITE. But I could be wrong......lemme know if I am. I'm sure somebody will
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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com
 
Neil,
I thought I remembered reading that Talonite generally gets the nod over 6K because of a beneficial heat treating process.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Will,Tom et all,

The way I understand it is that you can make a great hunter/skinner/every day use type of knife, that will cut for longer periods, and won't rust out of Talonite, but that's where it's abilities to outperform common steels end.

Now granted, I would love to make some of the above mentioned types of knives with Talonite to try it out, but is the added expense of the Talonite worth it in the long run? If you take away the corrosion resistance capabilities, would the material outperform certain common steels(3V, A2, 1095, D2, O1, etc)to the point of justifying the added expense?

I am sure that everyone here has at one time or another taken their hunting knife and hacked some branches for a fire, or pried something that shouldn't have been pried with a knife, or even had to dig a hole. So far from the info I can gather, the Talonite knife just might not stand up to that kind of abuse (and I personally don't consider those things that abusive).

The material has peaked my interest, and I surely don't want to speak bad things about it without actually trying it out, but I am begining to wonder if it is really worth the extra expense.

I can definitely say that I will be doing more research into it and if nothing else, I will gain some more knowledge about it.

Thanks for the help so far.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "




[This message has been edited by Jailhack (edited 06-22-2000).]
 
Sorry, double tap!!

[This message has been edited by Jailhack (edited 06-22-2000).]
 
Will :

Talonite is a great edge holder, but not the best at impact resistance...not BAD , but not the best.
Click to expand...

It has high wear resistance, this does not equal high edge retention in all situations. Only in situations where the lateral and perpendicular forces across the edge are significantly lower than the limiting levels set by the strength and impact toughness of the material. In the specific case of Talonite the strength levels are quite low. I don't doubt that it works well for industry blades (saws for example) as the supporting geometries are quite thick and the required edge finish is quite low.

The impact toughness and ductility of Talonite however are very good, they are not the factors that would prevent large blade functionality. However Talonite is very weak compared to high end blade steels which is why the edge rolls easily and the whole blade can be similarly bent under low strain. It is also very soft and it easily dented.

Bronco :

I am still having a little difficulty reconciling these claims of performance with the performance that would normally be indicated by a material with the tensile strength and hardness of Talonite.
Click to expand...

Strength, impact toughness, and RC, are absolutes. For a given value it does not matter what the material, if they are the same then the behavior described by those properties is the same. For example all materials with a RC of 60 have the same indendation levels, that is what RC measures. All materials with an impact toughness of a specific level take the same amount of energy to fracture. All materials with the same tensile strength take the same amount of effort to be pulled apart.

People are able to be swayed away from using such properties or ignore them completely only because they are not familar, if they were you would immediately see the problem they indicate. For example which weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of lead. A pound is a pound, it does not matter what the material is. Which is stronger Talonite at a tensile strength of 190 kpsi or Missions A2 at 320 kpsi. That is a 50% increase in strength and note Mission's A2 is one of the softer blade steels (10V at 63 RC is 375 kpsi) Consider I kept getting indents with Mission's A2 on hardwoods, it is spec'ed at 56 RC. How do you think Talonite at 45 RC would behave?

-Cliff
 
Cliff..i dont understand why you take every opportunity to bad rap the stuff??? it is not soft...it is relatively soft compared to harder steels...it is Rc 48.....most gun barrels rockwell in at around 36...are gun barrels soft...I think not....it does NOT dent easily....is it softer but works great inside certain perameters.....420v and 440v are great steels....as far as I can see they are BOTH pretty brittle...but I will continue to use them because the good outweighs the bad....I dont forge....maybe i should....but when it comes to steels that you can grind...we have come a LONG way in the last 30 years.....and we arent going back.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Cliff,

I'm very sorry to see you again talking about Talonite at RC45 WITHOUT noting that the standard tests for RC really don't correlate properly to this alloy's matrix. Talonite is by no means soft.

To continue to post to every Talonite thread with information that is incomplete or out of context can only be viewed as disengenuous.

For those who want to view Talonite's RC numbers in context, search the old archives or better yet go to "Eye's" web site where he's assembled all the old BFC threads for us. Those too who want to see data posted by Rob Cude, US Navy expert, about the magnetic properties of Talonite can find his posts there.

Edge geometry, wire edges, real world field performance etcetera ad nauseum too have been discussed to death and can be researched through Eye's nifty links.

I love the stuff.... Cliff obviously disparages it. To each their own which is, in and of itself a great thing, and what makes these forums fantastic. Those who are interested in Talonite ought to read input from everyone involved and not just take the word of this old man or Cliff's. Draw your own conclusions and act upon them accordingly. You'll all survive
smile.gif
!!!




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-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
 
Bob,
Thanks for informing the newbies (and reminding all of us) about the wealth of information on Talonite that Marion and others have compiled.

That having been said, I think you guys are jumping the gun a little bit in saying that anyone is "badmouthing" Talonite (with the possible exception of our Belgian friend
smile.gif
).

Please remember that this most recent portion of the discussion is in direct response to Jailhack's question on the suitability of Talonite in the role of a large camp knife/chopping blade. I think most will agree that while Talonite might perform adequately for many in this role, chopping doesn't exactly fall within Talonite's "sweet spot" as it were. To try and explain why this is the case is not the same as badmouthing in my mind. A discussion of the physical strengths and weaknesses of a specific material only serves to increase everyone's knowledge on the subject, thereby allowing us to evaluate for what purposes a particular material is best suited.

Cliff, in particular, comes to the table with facts and figures. Scientific data obviously suggests certain things about the performance that can be expected from this wonderful material. If there are specific reasons why tensile strength numbers and Rc values don't apply, or are misleading where Talonite is concerned, then by all means, please explain to us how this is so. Bob, you appear to be very familiar with this wealth of information that Marion has amassed. Perhaps you could quickly weed through all this data and copy and paste into this thread some of the relevant passages that might serve to reinforce your opinion.

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Semper Fi

-Bill

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 06-23-2000).]
 
I agree with everyone in this discussion, though in the final analysis, I am with Cliff.

The trade-offs are pretty clear:

Advantages - virtually corrosion proof, holds an edge for an absurdly long time under moderate use.

Disadvantages - not as strong as steel, costs more than steel.

You can make a Talonite knife with a thin aggressive edge and have the best of everything, but you will have to be careful with it. The better it cuts, the more vulnerable it will be to damage under lateral stress. Steel is MUCH stronger than Talonite in this regard. You can make your Talonite blades with stronger edges, but they won't cut as well. Talonite makes a fantastic fishing knife as long as all you do is slice fish bellies and cut monofilament.

My personal preference is to have a strong, dependable knife that cuts twice as efficiently, even though it needs sharpening twice as often as Talonite. Other folks will be just as happy with a thicker edge, so Talonite is a great deal for them.
 
Okay, the other bad thing is you need a special Talonite permit from Los Alamos. Those of you without the required permit must send those illegal Talonite knives to me for disposal.
smile.gif
Me, I love the stuff!


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"Hi, I'm Fish, and I'm a Taloniteaholic..."
copfish@aol.com
 
sorry i dont get it, and i dont care about all the technical stuff. i personally own 8 talonite knives, some with thinner edge, some with thicker edge (compared to the average edge thickness. have never had a problem with it, and my using knives are both pretty sharp, no sign of bending or roll over or something else. i had my concerns too about the "softness" so i run through a few test with one, light choping hardwood etc. and i came to the same conclusion as tom, it is NOT that soft. my 2 cents

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Ray
BladeMan@Net Forum
 
My fear is this: A customer buys a knife made from Talonite, you tell him all about the advantages and disadvantages and the proper use and swears he understands. He then calls you up a month later and screams about the edge rolling over while he was on a hunting trip and just using it to chop through some "kindlin'" for the camp fire.

If a customer of mine can not use his knife a "little" hard (and I'm not talking about 2" branches), then I will probably refrain from using the material.

Of all the info I have read on it's values, I don't think they outweigh it's disadvantages in most conditions for a camp knife. Would I use it for a fishing, small skinner, folder, or neck knife? Absolutely, but that's where it ends in my veiw.

I also want to thank all you guy's for this discussion, as I feel I have seen both sides of the argument, and can form a pretty decent paramater of use for the material.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
lest we all forget..this thread was started by someone singing the praises of the stuff.. then everyone seemed to get on the other side of the fence....like Blademan says above....I LOVE THE STUFF!!!!!!!
smile.gif


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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Gun barrels are soft, very soft compared to knives. They are not made as hard as knives because they would burst if they were.

When Cliff says measurable qualities are absolutes ... I'm afraid his scientific language isn't clear to everybody, so I'm going to translate that into plain English.

If you misunderstand hardness to mean the same as edgeholding you will often find the RC number very misleading because edgeholding depends on a number of qualities, varying with the material being cut and the method of cutting. Edgeholding is a complex matter. Hardness is simple: hardness is resistance to indentation. Hardness is measured by pressing a pyramid-ground diamond into the blade with measured force and measuring the size of the indentation it leaves after it is withdrawn.

If you're chopping wood and hit a knot or a nail whether the blade will be indented depends on hardness. If the blade consists of hard particles in a softer matrix that makes no difference here. Those hard particles help the blade resist abrasion but they don't help the blade resist indentation. Pressing a diamond point into the blade and chopping a knot with the blade test the same quality.

-Cougar :{)
 
Tom is right! I love the stuff. Send me your unloved Talonite! Paki knives in trade!

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"Hi, I'm Fish, and I'm a Taloniteaholic..."
copfish@aol.com
 
Um, Cougar, that example is a little off, since the edge would most likely roll, which is a function of 'toughness' (which is than a function of several other factors). A better example would be putting a nail against the side of the blade, the nhitting it with a hammer. The dent it creates will be the same on blades of the same Rc, regardless of what material they are. Note, if the nail started out off hte surface of the knife, and you hit it with a hammer, such that it then hit the surface (as opposed to already being in contact with the surface, as I just discussed), you would be measuring something different, so different materials would perform differently.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Hello,

Heck Rob has told me at shows he cuts Pennys and nickles in half with a talonite blade and its just fine afterwards, i think the trick is as with anything, Technique.

ive been using my PC-1 in talonite as an everyday carry blade, i cut boxes, priority mail tape, whittle Oak pallet boards, Pine 1 x 2`s and havent had a problem at all with nothing less than excellent cutting, and edge
crispness.

I think you have to temper your cutting with the material you use, but for my everyday utility cutting it works excellent.

my .02

Allen

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" You can make great knives and sell a few, Or make Great AFFORDABLE knives and sell many"
WEB SITE : http://hometown.aol.com/bladecutlery/index.html
 
Toughness is the ability to resist fracturing under impact, including repeated impacts (and including bending back and forth repeatedly without any impact at all, but let's not complicate matters).
smile.gif
Striking a blade with a nail is not different from striking the nail with the blade. If you shot a nail at a blade with some sort of gun and caused the blade to fracture that would be a measure of toughness, and it would indicate whether the blade would fracture if you hit a nail while chopping.

Toughness can determine how many times you can roll an edge and steel it back to shape before it fractures. (The edge is also being abraded while you use it, so that might force you to regrind the edge before it reaches its toughness limit.)

Whether an edge rolls to one side or is indented straight back (ie equally to both sides) depends on a number of factors. Edge geometry is the easiest to change -- if your edge rolls resharpen to a slightly less acute angle, repeat until it stops rolling. Another factor is how much side force the edge is subjected to -- if you chop very accurately, not much, but if you're clumsy -- and we all get clumsier when we're tired or in a hurry -- then the edge will be subjected to greater side forces.

Bending to one side subjects the inner side of the bend to stress (compression) and the outside of the bend to strain (tension, stretching). Materials vary in compression strength and tensile strength independently (for instance, steel has great tensile strength but lesser compression strength; concrete has great compression strength but poor tensile strength (that's why the two materials are often used in combination)).

So rolling an edge involves tension as well as compression ... the side of the edge that's not being compressed contributes to resisting rolling by resisting tension. A blade with greater tensile strength would resist edge rolling better. Tensile strength also contributes to indentation straight back and to the Rockwell test, though -- the surface of the metal is being stretched, and it resists that.

Looking back over my reasoning so far ... it looks like I've established that tensile strength is a factor in rolling an edge, in indenting an edge straight back, and in the Rockwell hardness test -- but does that factor have the same importance in resisting all three forms of plastic deformation? I doubt it's exactly the same. Is it significantly different, though? I don't seem to be able to answer that question from here in my chair ... it's time for some experimentation.

Note that elasticity has the same effect in the Rockwell hardness test and in chopping -- you measure the depth of the indentation in the Rockwell test after you withdraw the diamond point and the metal has a chance to rebound; you observe the indentation in the edge after hitting a knot after the metal has a chance to rebound, too.

-Cougar :{)


[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 06-25-2000).]
 
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