from what I can see...the edge doesnt roll any more than ats 34...which is HARD as you say!!!!!!!!!
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Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?
- Thread starter copfish
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Cliff Stamp
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Bob :
[Talonite]
It is a material, not a living being, I have no feelings about it at all. As for my statement on it as being soft and weak. This is not simply based on the RC, nor even the low strength. They of course help to interpret the result of various work I have done, but it is the results which are critical, and without which I would never take a solid stand on anything. I have used blades in Talonite, Stellite 6K, cast Cobalt (Boye), and forged 6BH (Talonite without the TM name) and have edge failed all of them (rolled, chipped or indented), the Talonite blade the most significantly as it is mine and it indents and rolls and takes a perm. bend much easier than a high end blade steel, VG-10 in the F1 for example (which is not at the top of the list either).
Allen :
Which are made out of very soft and weak alloys. I have done that with POS kitchen knives on a vice hitting the blade with a normal claw hammer (takes about 3-6 hits with a dime, less if you really hammer it but this can put a nice cut in the vice). I can also put a quarter in a vice, grab it with a set of needle nose pliers and easily break it in half just torquing with my wrist (that is not a great show of strength by the way they are just weak) .
Knife alloys, even the ones that members of Bladeforums turn their nose down at like 420-J2 (Cougar's favorite blade steel), are very hard and strong compared to many every day metals. Look up 440A and it will be listed as a high strength very hard stainless steel. How is it viewed here? Soft and weak as are many things when compared to the high end blade tool and HSS steels. Which you would expect as they are what are used to cut, file and otherwise machine most materials except for themselves of course.
-Cliff
[Talonite]
It is a material, not a living being, I have no feelings about it at all. As for my statement on it as being soft and weak. This is not simply based on the RC, nor even the low strength. They of course help to interpret the result of various work I have done, but it is the results which are critical, and without which I would never take a solid stand on anything. I have used blades in Talonite, Stellite 6K, cast Cobalt (Boye), and forged 6BH (Talonite without the TM name) and have edge failed all of them (rolled, chipped or indented), the Talonite blade the most significantly as it is mine and it indents and rolls and takes a perm. bend much easier than a high end blade steel, VG-10 in the F1 for example (which is not at the top of the list either).
Allen :
Which are made out of very soft and weak alloys. I have done that with POS kitchen knives on a vice hitting the blade with a normal claw hammer (takes about 3-6 hits with a dime, less if you really hammer it but this can put a nice cut in the vice). I can also put a quarter in a vice, grab it with a set of needle nose pliers and easily break it in half just torquing with my wrist (that is not a great show of strength by the way they are just weak) .
Knife alloys, even the ones that members of Bladeforums turn their nose down at like 420-J2 (Cougar's favorite blade steel), are very hard and strong compared to many every day metals. Look up 440A and it will be listed as a high strength very hard stainless steel. How is it viewed here? Soft and weak as are many things when compared to the high end blade tool and HSS steels. Which you would expect as they are what are used to cut, file and otherwise machine most materials except for themselves of course.
-Cliff
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Cobalt
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Man, I can't believe I stayed out of this, this long.
I think what's happening is that stellite and talonite have been touted as the ultimate alloys, which they are not. They are an excellent compromise and in my opinion just about ideal in a very corrosive environment. Just ask Mayo how fast even some stainless steels can rust in the Islands. Cobalt based alloys just laugh at it.
No, they are not as tough as 3V most likely. But, it's something else to buy, what the f.
I think what's happening is that stellite and talonite have been touted as the ultimate alloys, which they are not. They are an excellent compromise and in my opinion just about ideal in a very corrosive environment. Just ask Mayo how fast even some stainless steels can rust in the Islands. Cobalt based alloys just laugh at it.
No, they are not as tough as 3V most likely. But, it's something else to buy, what the f.
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Talonite is marvelous stuff in terms of edge holding on soft materials and corrosion resistance. It is not marvelous in the strength department compared to steel. It is no where near as strong as ATS-34 (sorry to disagree Tom).
Some of you may remember a thread not long ago with the subject line Tuff on Talonite? The main topic of which was my accidentally ripping half the edge off of a Talonite blade while cutting through the bottom of a plastic softdrink bottle. This was the worst case scenario for Talonite where lateral force was applied to a very small area of the edge, and the edge just peeled back like tearing a piece of paper.
You can make knives with thin edges out of Talonite, but you will have to be careful with them. Or, you can make Talonite knives with thick strong edges if you like knives like that. I don't. They don't cut aggressively enough for me.
I cannot imagine making a big camp knife intended for chopping out of Talonite. Not because I think the knife will be destroyed any time you use it, Kit Carson will tell you he has a lot of Talonite knives being used hard and with happy owners, but because I know that steel is stronger.
Given the trade-offs with Talonite, extreme corrosion resistance and extreme edge holding under "normal" cutting conditions, versus the thinner, stronger, more efficient cutting edge that you can put on a steel knife, I choose steel.
Talonite would make excellent fish cleaning knives for commercial fishing. It is really great stuff for moderate use as described by Allen Blade, perfect stuff. But, I don't think you can make as durable or efficient a blade out of it for extreme use, or even moderate hard use, as you can out of steel.
Some of you may remember a thread not long ago with the subject line Tuff on Talonite? The main topic of which was my accidentally ripping half the edge off of a Talonite blade while cutting through the bottom of a plastic softdrink bottle. This was the worst case scenario for Talonite where lateral force was applied to a very small area of the edge, and the edge just peeled back like tearing a piece of paper.
You can make knives with thin edges out of Talonite, but you will have to be careful with them. Or, you can make Talonite knives with thick strong edges if you like knives like that. I don't. They don't cut aggressively enough for me.
I cannot imagine making a big camp knife intended for chopping out of Talonite. Not because I think the knife will be destroyed any time you use it, Kit Carson will tell you he has a lot of Talonite knives being used hard and with happy owners, but because I know that steel is stronger.
Given the trade-offs with Talonite, extreme corrosion resistance and extreme edge holding under "normal" cutting conditions, versus the thinner, stronger, more efficient cutting edge that you can put on a steel knife, I choose steel.
Talonite would make excellent fish cleaning knives for commercial fishing. It is really great stuff for moderate use as described by Allen Blade, perfect stuff. But, I don't think you can make as durable or efficient a blade out of it for extreme use, or even moderate hard use, as you can out of steel.
Cliff Stamp
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Jerry, I would be repeat it on US currency no problem, however not mine, I have no problem chopping up play money but the real thing is a different matter.
Steve :
I would change that just slightly to be :
I don't think you can make as efficient a blade out of it as you can out of steel.
Even if you just want light use, just go thinner with the steel and it will out cut the Talonite blade. The only exception to this is if there are people using Talonite blades with grinds like Ed Shott and R. J. Martin uses as that is about as optimal as you can get.
David Boye grinds some thin blades in cast Cobalt, probably the most optimal cutting blades in a Cobalt alloy being made (.01" behind the edge). Far more acute than what I have seen posted for Talonite (.02"+ behind the edge), still not as acute as Schott and Martin (few are), but as acute as Phil Wilson and definately in the high performance class.
Problem is though is that they are very weak compared to the same ones in his cast steel. Thanks to Will York I have a loan of two identical hunters in both materials and the Cobalt will take edge damage far easier than the steel one, even simply cutting cardboard. It rolls quickly and then with continued cutting breaks apart. To be specific, after cutting 3000 cm of cardboard with both :
"[Dendritic Cobalt] There were two areas about 2mm long that were missing pieces about .2 mm deep and a couple of smaller sections were broke away leaving gaps about 1mm long and .1 mm deep. The Dendritic steel blade did not fracture and was only slightly reflecting light in a few places. [/quote]
I have seen similar with many other types of uses including simply using both in the kitchen and observing the resulting damage, to be specific, after one such week :
"Under 10X the Cobalt blade has one large dent about .2mm deep and 2mm long. It also has a couple of small ones about .1 mm deep and 1mm long. The Steel blade has no damage visible at that level."
The .2mm deep dent can be seen easily by eye.
Same behavior can be seen in any type of cutting, for example I did some chopping with a forged 6BH blade and the edge rolled almost immediately (150 chops) on some very seasoned (10+ years) Pine (light chops, elbow only). The same stress did not significantly effect the Strider WB, Project I, or Busse Battle Mistress.
-Cliff
Steve :
I would change that just slightly to be :
I don't think you can make as efficient a blade out of it as you can out of steel.
Even if you just want light use, just go thinner with the steel and it will out cut the Talonite blade. The only exception to this is if there are people using Talonite blades with grinds like Ed Shott and R. J. Martin uses as that is about as optimal as you can get.
David Boye grinds some thin blades in cast Cobalt, probably the most optimal cutting blades in a Cobalt alloy being made (.01" behind the edge). Far more acute than what I have seen posted for Talonite (.02"+ behind the edge), still not as acute as Schott and Martin (few are), but as acute as Phil Wilson and definately in the high performance class.
Problem is though is that they are very weak compared to the same ones in his cast steel. Thanks to Will York I have a loan of two identical hunters in both materials and the Cobalt will take edge damage far easier than the steel one, even simply cutting cardboard. It rolls quickly and then with continued cutting breaks apart. To be specific, after cutting 3000 cm of cardboard with both :
"[Dendritic Cobalt] There were two areas about 2mm long that were missing pieces about .2 mm deep and a couple of smaller sections were broke away leaving gaps about 1mm long and .1 mm deep. The Dendritic steel blade did not fracture and was only slightly reflecting light in a few places. [/quote]
I have seen similar with many other types of uses including simply using both in the kitchen and observing the resulting damage, to be specific, after one such week :
"Under 10X the Cobalt blade has one large dent about .2mm deep and 2mm long. It also has a couple of small ones about .1 mm deep and 1mm long. The Steel blade has no damage visible at that level."
The .2mm deep dent can be seen easily by eye.
Same behavior can be seen in any type of cutting, for example I did some chopping with a forged 6BH blade and the edge rolled almost immediately (150 chops) on some very seasoned (10+ years) Pine (light chops, elbow only). The same stress did not significantly effect the Strider WB, Project I, or Busse Battle Mistress.
-Cliff
dogboye
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I think about how 440V was touted as the best stainless steel available in production, in Spyderco knives. And, I remember how disappointed I was in how it performed in my hands. Until I realized at least I could resharpen it pretty easily (so much for edge holding).
Then, I keep reading about Talonite, and how it is the ultimate knife material. The more I read about it, the more I consider asking Rob (whenever he gets far enough down his waiting list to get to me) to make my Talisman and Cetan out of something else... like maybe D2, BG42, or even 420V.
The more I hear about Talonite, the less I think it is the blade for me... especially when one factors in the cost.
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iktomi
Then, I keep reading about Talonite, and how it is the ultimate knife material. The more I read about it, the more I consider asking Rob (whenever he gets far enough down his waiting list to get to me) to make my Talisman and Cetan out of something else... like maybe D2, BG42, or even 420V.
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iktomi
STEVE-no need to apologize....what i was saying is that in spite of the fact that ats is much harder than talonite, the edge rolls pretty darn easy on ATS..believe me....I made most of my knives out of the stuff until a few years ago when Crucible started making their CPM steels.....for a Rc60, the edge rolls almost as easy as talonite...IMHO
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Cougar Allen
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What I find confusing is although I've seen hard data posted about the weaknesses of Talonite, comparison tests that look pretty rigorous and objective, and I've seen many posts praising Talonite, I still haven't seen any hard data about the strengths of Talonite. I want to see hard data, comparison tests, that show exactly what the strengths of Talonite are. I've seen many posts saying the edgeholding is great -- but the comparison tests I've seen, comparing Talonite to premium steels in cutting specific materials in specific conditions, have apparently all turned out to have been testing Talonite on materials or in conditions that don't show its advantage. I'm not discounting the anecdotal evidence in favor of Talonite; I take it seriously -- but I want to see hard evidence that shows Talonite outperforming premium steels in a side-by-side comparison.
I think it would be interesting to see comparisons with the 440 steels, too. Although no stainless steel is perfectly corrosion-proof the way Talonite is, 440A is damn good; even 440C is so corrosion resistant that under many conditions it might as well be perfect. Under what conditions, cutting what materials, will Talonite hold its edge longer than 440A or B or C and for how much longer?
I see a couple of posts in this thread saying Talonite is good for cutting meat -- but how about a comparison test that shows it's better for cutting meat than 440C with a good heat-treat, and how much better it is?
When I ask for hard data I don't mean it has to have graphs and pie charts and equations and you have to calculate the significant deviation for each conclusion before I'll take you seriously -- just take a Talonite knife and a premium steel knife and cut something with them side-by-side and see if the Talonite knife stays sharp longer. And if it doesn't, how about trying something else? Until you find something that it can go on cutting longer than a premium steel knife?
-Cougar :{)
I think it would be interesting to see comparisons with the 440 steels, too. Although no stainless steel is perfectly corrosion-proof the way Talonite is, 440A is damn good; even 440C is so corrosion resistant that under many conditions it might as well be perfect. Under what conditions, cutting what materials, will Talonite hold its edge longer than 440A or B or C and for how much longer?
I see a couple of posts in this thread saying Talonite is good for cutting meat -- but how about a comparison test that shows it's better for cutting meat than 440C with a good heat-treat, and how much better it is?
When I ask for hard data I don't mean it has to have graphs and pie charts and equations and you have to calculate the significant deviation for each conclusion before I'll take you seriously -- just take a Talonite knife and a premium steel knife and cut something with them side-by-side and see if the Talonite knife stays sharp longer. And if it doesn't, how about trying something else? Until you find something that it can go on cutting longer than a premium steel knife?
-Cougar :{)
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I keep referring to this even though I don't know how applicable it is to Talonite, but an article in Tactical Knives comparing the David Boye Dendritic Steel folder to the Dendritic Stellite version of the same knife reported that the BDS blade would cut something like 30 times through some rope while the BDC (Boye Dendritic Cobalt) blade would go through 50 times.
Cliff Stamp
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Steve do you recall what kind of rope it was, how the blades were sharpened and what criteria was used to know when a blade was no longer able to cut the rope?
Cougar, I have used them on all manner of materials and have found no clear advantage. The quick rolling is the major performance drop off. If you are personally interested in how one behaves, I have a Talonite knife you can look at made by Allen Blade.
I have little reservation about what you do with it except don't stress the blade laterally very quickly as it will then become two blades. You can overstress the point to a small set if you want and stress the edge to failure in regards to chipping, indenting or impaction.
It is not in my current rotation so there is no rush on getting it back to me. Drop me an email with the particulars if you are interested.
-Cliff
Cougar, I have used them on all manner of materials and have found no clear advantage. The quick rolling is the major performance drop off. If you are personally interested in how one behaves, I have a Talonite knife you can look at made by Allen Blade.
I have little reservation about what you do with it except don't stress the blade laterally very quickly as it will then become two blades. You can overstress the point to a small set if you want and stress the edge to failure in regards to chipping, indenting or impaction.
It is not in my current rotation so there is no rush on getting it back to me. Drop me an email with the particulars if you are interested.
-Cliff
just for your info....boye dendritic steel is cast 440C and the other stuff is cast stellite 6k...I think stellite is cast as a normal manufacturing procedure anyhow...but this is recast into pocket knife blanks.
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Cliff Stamp
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Boyes cast Cobalt is not Stellite 6K, it has the elemental breakdown of Stellite 6B but it is not accurate to say that it is that either as Stellite 6B and 6K are forged and rolled alloys. According to Deloro it is probably Stellite 6. In cany case it is even softer than Talonite at about 39 RC. Which you would expect as it has a similar composition but not the age hardening, which means it is probably weaker and the cast probably means it is more fragile.
-Cliff
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Cliff:
No, I don't remember the rope type, but it was natural fiber based on the picture I saw in the article. I don't remember the criteria used to judge sharpness either, only the approximate 30 versus 50 figure.
Is Talonite supposed to be more wear resistant than Stellite 6K as well as tougher?
No, I don't remember the rope type, but it was natural fiber based on the picture I saw in the article. I don't remember the criteria used to judge sharpness either, only the approximate 30 versus 50 figure.
Is Talonite supposed to be more wear resistant than Stellite 6K as well as tougher?
Cobalt
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Cliff, you are correct. Deloro Stellite 6K is hot rolled not cast in the true sense of the word. Really all steels(and other alloys except for cpm steels) are cast into ingots from the original ore, which can then be processed many different ways. One way is to run the ingots through a series of rolling mills while still hot and reduce it in size to varying thicknesses. This is called hot rolling.
Casting process or more accuratelly named investment castings are done by pouring steel into preshaped molds. This may be what Boye is doing, but I don't know. This is how Ruger makes all their guns.
Steve H.-to answer your question, No and No. There is no way a casting could ever be tougher than a hot rolled material unless there is something else going on there.
Casting process or more accuratelly named investment castings are done by pouring steel into preshaped molds. This may be what Boye is doing, but I don't know. This is how Ruger makes all their guns.
Steve H.-to answer your question, No and No. There is no way a casting could ever be tougher than a hot rolled material unless there is something else going on there.
First, let it be said again that Talonite is not the Holy Grail. It doesn't exist. What it is is a great combination of advantages and disadvantages that the prospective knife buyer should weigh against the merits of other blade materials.
The RC business can be synposized by saying that the alloy's matrix is comprised of extremely hard particles in a softer base. The impact point of an RC tester doesn't just hit the super hard stuff but rather a broader spectrum of the matrix with its milder binder and as such gives a mid 40s result which doesn't correlate to the performance the alloy achieves. This is also seem in the grinding process. Kit Carson and others have said of cobalt alloys that they are a bear to grind compared to more common blade steels. Does that sound like this stuff is soft? Search the archives or Eye's site for the particulars.
It's in-the-field cutting performance primarily as a hunter's field dressing tool, coupled with it's corrosion resistance that make it outstanding for that purpose. Likewise real life utility functions as evidenced by the tests in the shipping department of a black powder gun manufacturer, or those processing fish on a commercial basis, etc., etc., etc.
Big camp chopper? Not the best choice when one has A2 and the CPMs available. Rob Simonich has stated that for a long time after completing his own tests.
Medium sized camp knife? Yes... Dr. Ron Hood tested this concept in the Amazon.
Now, from my knothole we have numerous camps within the knife community to include the users and the testers. I judge a blade on what it does for me under real life conditions. The testers take performance to the point of failure which offers some darned good data. But more often than not a blade will not be pushed anywhere near this level in real life which means that most materials will perform just fine thank you. Yes, there may be situations where your life depends on extracting that last bit of performance. I handle that by carrying more than one blade as well as having them reflect different design philosophies... my Elishwitz Omega folder in CPM440V is a fantastic tactical folder as is my Spyderco Civilian a preferred self defense and run cutter. My Talonite fixed blades are all short to medium length utility designs and my Talonite folder is also a utility piece. They too excel at the uses I put them to. My no-holds barred camp knives are made of A2 or 0176... they're sharpened prybars that are built for heavy abuse.
So whats my point? Talonite, as with any other blade material be it ceramic, cobalt, tool steel, stainless steel, whatever, has earned its place. Use it in a design and edge geometry that maximizes its characteristics and you'll love it. Misapply or misuse it like anything else and you'll be unhappy.
There really is no controversy other than that engendered by repetitive position posting. Something I too could be said to be guilty of. But I find it distressing when empirical data is touted as a panacia for blade material selection without weighing very carefully real world usage. Those who have selected Talonite with their eyes open in a suitable design will be rewarded with an exceptional instrument as the many posts here and elsewhere from users testifies to.
Enjoy the 4th!
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-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 07-02-2000).]
The RC business can be synposized by saying that the alloy's matrix is comprised of extremely hard particles in a softer base. The impact point of an RC tester doesn't just hit the super hard stuff but rather a broader spectrum of the matrix with its milder binder and as such gives a mid 40s result which doesn't correlate to the performance the alloy achieves. This is also seem in the grinding process. Kit Carson and others have said of cobalt alloys that they are a bear to grind compared to more common blade steels. Does that sound like this stuff is soft? Search the archives or Eye's site for the particulars.
It's in-the-field cutting performance primarily as a hunter's field dressing tool, coupled with it's corrosion resistance that make it outstanding for that purpose. Likewise real life utility functions as evidenced by the tests in the shipping department of a black powder gun manufacturer, or those processing fish on a commercial basis, etc., etc., etc.
Big camp chopper? Not the best choice when one has A2 and the CPMs available. Rob Simonich has stated that for a long time after completing his own tests.
Medium sized camp knife? Yes... Dr. Ron Hood tested this concept in the Amazon.
Now, from my knothole we have numerous camps within the knife community to include the users and the testers. I judge a blade on what it does for me under real life conditions. The testers take performance to the point of failure which offers some darned good data. But more often than not a blade will not be pushed anywhere near this level in real life which means that most materials will perform just fine thank you. Yes, there may be situations where your life depends on extracting that last bit of performance. I handle that by carrying more than one blade as well as having them reflect different design philosophies... my Elishwitz Omega folder in CPM440V is a fantastic tactical folder as is my Spyderco Civilian a preferred self defense and run cutter. My Talonite fixed blades are all short to medium length utility designs and my Talonite folder is also a utility piece. They too excel at the uses I put them to. My no-holds barred camp knives are made of A2 or 0176... they're sharpened prybars that are built for heavy abuse.
So whats my point? Talonite, as with any other blade material be it ceramic, cobalt, tool steel, stainless steel, whatever, has earned its place. Use it in a design and edge geometry that maximizes its characteristics and you'll love it. Misapply or misuse it like anything else and you'll be unhappy.
There really is no controversy other than that engendered by repetitive position posting. Something I too could be said to be guilty of. But I find it distressing when empirical data is touted as a panacia for blade material selection without weighing very carefully real world usage. Those who have selected Talonite with their eyes open in a suitable design will be rewarded with an exceptional instrument as the many posts here and elsewhere from users testifies to.
Enjoy the 4th!
------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 07-02-2000).]
Cliff Stamp
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Steve, excellent question in regards to Stellite 6K and Talonite. If you ask Carbide Processors you get one answer, if you ask Deloro Stellite you get another which is pretty much the opposite. Both of them have active emails, I would encourage anyone who is interested to drop them a mail.
In regards to the rope test by Breed, Will York provided me with the relevant details. The medium was 1/2" sisal rope and the initial finish was an extra fine Ez-Lap hone and a strop (not the recommend way to sharpen accounring to Boye). The cutting was stopped with the D-440C blade after 22 cuts when the edge starting "losing its bite". On the D-Cobalt it was 57 "good, clean cuts"
I performed a similar test a few days ago using 1/2" hemp rope. My results were the opposite and similar to what I got when I used cardboard as blunting stock. The D-440C blade easily outlasted the D-Cobalt blade which I would expect as the main factor is rolling which is dependent on strength and the steel blade is far stronger than the cobalt one. The full results can be seen in the Boye hunter review (still in progress). I also included a Deerhunter and a Henckels paring knife as performance baselines.
Bob :
[Talonite]
So is steel. Of course the RC is not representative of the hardness of the carbides, but it is of the base matrix, same as it is in steel.
You don't use steel blades in the state that they are ground in, it is meanless to the user to compare them to the Cobalt blades in that manner so as to draw conclusions about how the blades will perform. This has to be one of the most misleading arguments that keeps getting made about the Cobalt blade alloys.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-02-2000).]
In regards to the rope test by Breed, Will York provided me with the relevant details. The medium was 1/2" sisal rope and the initial finish was an extra fine Ez-Lap hone and a strop (not the recommend way to sharpen accounring to Boye). The cutting was stopped with the D-440C blade after 22 cuts when the edge starting "losing its bite". On the D-Cobalt it was 57 "good, clean cuts"
I performed a similar test a few days ago using 1/2" hemp rope. My results were the opposite and similar to what I got when I used cardboard as blunting stock. The D-440C blade easily outlasted the D-Cobalt blade which I would expect as the main factor is rolling which is dependent on strength and the steel blade is far stronger than the cobalt one. The full results can be seen in the Boye hunter review (still in progress). I also included a Deerhunter and a Henckels paring knife as performance baselines.
Bob :
[Talonite]
So is steel. Of course the RC is not representative of the hardness of the carbides, but it is of the base matrix, same as it is in steel.
You don't use steel blades in the state that they are ground in, it is meanless to the user to compare them to the Cobalt blades in that manner so as to draw conclusions about how the blades will perform. This has to be one of the most misleading arguments that keeps getting made about the Cobalt blade alloys.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-02-2000).]
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RE: Boye BDS (steel) vs BDC (cobalt)
To further corroborate the above, I've personally done cutting tests with a flat-ground 4" Boye steel drop point hunter on 1/2" sisal rope. At 75 cuts there was no discernable difference in "bite" on the rope. At 100 cuts the performance began to fall off, but the blade would still scrape hair and was still aggressively cutting rope.
David Boye has recorded tests of his steel blades performing several hundred cuts on hemp rope without re-sharpening. I asked his wife and able assistant, Debbie Boye, about the Breed article, and she told me they had not commented on the review because the 22 cuts with steel seemed very low to them, also. So the 22 cut figure, although performed with a 3" hollow ground folder, seems inconsistent with any other testing I've done or seen reported on Boye steel blades.
I've not run comparison tests with the Boye cobalt--fortunately I found Cliff before I had to invest in any more rope! His tests to date closely agree with my results on BDS steel, however, so I certainly accept his results with the Boye cobalt at face value.
To further corroborate the above, I've personally done cutting tests with a flat-ground 4" Boye steel drop point hunter on 1/2" sisal rope. At 75 cuts there was no discernable difference in "bite" on the rope. At 100 cuts the performance began to fall off, but the blade would still scrape hair and was still aggressively cutting rope.
David Boye has recorded tests of his steel blades performing several hundred cuts on hemp rope without re-sharpening. I asked his wife and able assistant, Debbie Boye, about the Breed article, and she told me they had not commented on the review because the 22 cuts with steel seemed very low to them, also. So the 22 cut figure, although performed with a 3" hollow ground folder, seems inconsistent with any other testing I've done or seen reported on Boye steel blades.
I've not run comparison tests with the Boye cobalt--fortunately I found Cliff before I had to invest in any more rope! His tests to date closely agree with my results on BDS steel, however, so I certainly accept his results with the Boye cobalt at face value.
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Oh yeah. I've done enough cutting with my dendritic steel folders to know that they will cut through .5" sisal more than 22 times. The notion of stopping when a blade quits shaving is really a dubious testing criteria. Very subjective. A knife blade can keep cutting well for a long time after it quits shaving.
I had forgotten about Cliff's dendritic cobalt test where the steel knife did better than the cobalt knife. Based on the strength I've seen from cobalt, and the thinness of Boye's edges, that doesn't surprise me at all.
I had forgotten about Cliff's dendritic cobalt test where the steel knife did better than the cobalt knife. Based on the strength I've seen from cobalt, and the thinness of Boye's edges, that doesn't surprise me at all.
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