Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?

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Cliff,

Let's just agree to disagree okay?

You stick to the RC test and cite it as proof positive Talonite is soft ergo a poor material. I'll stick to saying the RC test does not accurately predict cobalt alloy eg Talonite real-world-field performance and that the proof of the pudding is in the using with the caveats I cite in my post above.

Heck if one stuck only to aerodynamic prinicples, the Steath F117 design, which exhibits instability in all three axis, would have been condemned as unflyable. But fly it does because the Skunk Works refused to be limited to the implications of standard academic thinking! I think there is an analogy here.



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-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
 
Bob and Tom--
Obviously your point of view has a large following, and with such fervent response, I wonder why we've not seen testing that would quantify, or at least support, the sense that Talonite performs better in the "real world" than in Cliff's testing.
To me, Cliff's testing seems pretty straight forward. The argument against his test results seems to be that on softer materials, such as meat (rather than cardboard or fabric), Talonite holds up real well. But I've yet to see any controlled comparison testing by anyone other than Cliff, and with such a strong debate, that puzzles me.
Cliff's testing demonstrated that, given his methods and materials, Talonite was in the same performance class as VG-10 steel, which is not bad. I don't know anyone who thinks VG-10 is "soft" or "weak" in any absolute sense--it just doesn't compete in the same league with the CPM steels or tool steels such as D2. Talonite does have the quality of being absolutely rust proof--a very attractive feature.
But to say that Cliff's opinion of Talonite is based solely on its RC hardness is to ignore the extensive testing he's already done. And that testing is all we have to go on so far, other than how people "feel" about Talonite's performance from personal "field experience". Why can't that field experience be demonstrated by controlled comparison with other known blade materials, so we can get a little better handle on this question? Any ideas?

Thanks--Will



[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
I am making knives out of the stuff daily, as is Rob Simmonich and others...the guys who are buying them are stoked...I have one guy who emails me regularly telling me how great his knife works...hes had it for many months....read the first post at the beginning of this thread...I carry a talonite folder daily...I am stoked....the rest is bullsh-t

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
If Talonite outperforms premium steels in real-world use it should be very easy to find a test that will show its superior edgeholding. In the real world we cut a variety of materials with a knife; since Talonite's edgeholding is not as good as premium steels in cutting some materials it must be much better in cutting other materials. Cliff is lending me a Talonite knife for testing and I want to find its advantages -- I intend to test it in a very biased manner, much like the Pentagon testing a missile they want to buy.
smile.gif


My idea is we already know about materials that Talonite doesn't hold its edge cutting -- so I'm going to look for materials it holds its edge well on. I figure to try rope; that's easy enough. I don't know about meat, though; it would take a lot of meat to dull a good steel knife and even more to dull the Talonite knife if meat-cutting edgeholding claims have any truth to them ... I am not a vegetarian, but I'm not a professional butcher either.

Another idea that's occurred to me is to dip the knives in salt water between cuts, to see how much difference edge corrosion makes.

Come on, Talonite boosters -- give me some ideas! I'll try anything -- as long as it isn't too expensive; if you want to claim Talonite outperforms steel at cutting 18 karat gold you'll have to prove it yourselves....
smile.gif


-Cougar :{)
 
Still packing my Mayo TNT daily. In daily cutting (food, package tape, USPS boxes, rags, tires) the Talonite cuts with a "dull-feeling" edge longer. Bringing a Talonite edge back to keen is a few strokes on a ceramic rod, try that with CPM-440V or BG-42! There is no corrosion when leaving blood or saltwater for days. Talonite may not be the cure-all knife "steel" but it is my personal choice. Kinda like why I ride my Beemer more than my HOG, personal choice.

Fish, Talonite Nut
"Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid."

 
Originally posted by Cougar Allen:
If Talonite outperforms premium steels in real-world use it should be very easy to find a test that will show its superior edgeholding...I don't know about meat, though; it would take a lot of meat to dull a good steel knife and even more to dull the Talonite knife if meat-cutting edgeholding claims have any truth to them ... I am not a vegetarian, but I'm not a professional butcher either...
Click to expand...

Cougar--

I wonder if this could be a reason why we haven't seen controlled testing. I noticed Cliff even tested a Henkels kitchen knife on meats and vegetables in a 3-week test without significant effect on the edge. That same knife did very poorly in his other, more rigorous testing. Of course, there's something to be said for an absolutely rust-proof knife that performs in the VG-10 range. I'm sure that would satisfy many users on softer materials--and apparently does.

I'll look forward to your testing results, and thanks in advance for sharing them.

--Will

 
Cougar, as WIll noted, anything will cut food for practically forever. A friend of mine, who posts here as Muni, commented to me that it is very common in Malyasia for kitchen knives to be made from mild steel and Al alloys. While soft and weak compared to tool steels, they are much harder than a tomato.

Bob, my opinion on Talonite on being soft and weak is not based just on the low hardness and tensile strength. That you would make such a comment indicates the extreme level of hype there is about the material.

Cougar I intended to get the blade out to you this week, however I was tied up at work. I will ship it off monday. As indicated in the above do whatever you want with it, including reprofiling if you think it will bring out the maximum performance.

-Cliff
 
Will,

Your point is well taken but in fact there have been numerous real world tests reported. The folks in the shipping department at Dixie Guns refused to give their test knife back after cutting a LOT of cardboard over several weeks without sharpening (this was reported in a knife rag... forget which one but it is easily found). Then the famous 5 wild hog test... fully butchered without resharpening... keep in mind the tough hide embedded with grit, etc. The benchmark had been 3 hogs with an excellent tool steel knife (I think it was A2). Real world tests by commercial fisherman, etc. all have come in with their concluding that the Talonite had outperformed their past standard. My personal reports way back when on cardboard, wood, linoleum, and PVC versus other knives in my battery. We can't all be wrong about the stuff cutting and cutting can we? Someone think there is a conspiracy here? Re-read my article in The Cutting Edge.


For all:

My background is heavy industrial logistics support to include senior project management on the first engineered refueling overhaul of a 688 submarine (500,000 man-days of work). I currently support B-1B bombers. So I have indeed been exposed to a great deal of technical stuff. I have learned that tests, in and of themselves, are not always conclusive. In many ways their results can be skewed similar to good old statistics. So real world testing is always part of the mix. This has and will continue to be my contention. I have no beef with Cliff's tests any more than I had with non-destructive testing such as liquid penetration and radiography. But, and again I'm being redundant, test results must be weighed against the component design implemented, component performance goals, and real world usage. And therein lies the rub... and disputes here. As an example, I had a lengthy conversation with Sal and some of his folks at Spyderco about their test machine which is skewed to reward wire edge performance ... Talonite did not fair well there. No problem in my mind as what they were looking for is not a facet of Talonite's performance parameters. Did that test mean Talonite sucked? Hell no. It simply meant that it wasn't ideally suited for one company's product goals. Camillus ran tests too, be very assured of that fact, and they found its performance compatible with their product goals... hence the Cuda Talon fixed blade production knife. If anyone out there thinks a company as large as Camillus is within the cutlery industry, is going to put out untested product or base its decisions on hype, they need a sanity check pronto.

Personally I resent the hell out of those who place the label "hype" being associated with those of us who have shared our positive experiences with Talonite. My credibility is something I do not triffle lightly with period. One of my posts here on page 4 sought to remind folks of the balance I've brought before in the wider discussion of this material. It may bear re-reading.

I've also previously commented inter alia that the stuff will roll in edges not optimized geometrically for it. I've talked about the RC business and not just from the grinding perspective that Cliff dismissed but from a more detailed look at exactly how an RC test is conducted and what the results mean for different material types. The wire edge issue. etc. ad nauseum....

My bottom line still is what I stated before... in a properly executed design this stuff delivers many advantages with minimal shortcomings. It is not a panacea nor Holy Grail. It definately has earned a place as a premium blade material. But why some seem to make a career out of disparaging it remains a mystery to me. This whole thread started out with a new Talonite user indicating his personal enthusiasm for its performance. It seems, as too many other Talonite threads have experienced, to have evolved into a "well the tests say this stuff can't be very good" versus the vast majority of users who like what it affords them. Again, I have trouble with the implicit indictment of those of us who love the material in the using because of some conclusions some have drawn from some tests. For me, I'm extremely happy with the material as it is in well executed designs that I use for the purposes intended. Someone elses tests and their conclusions aren't going to alter my personal experience a whit. Accordingly, this will probably be my last post in this thread.


------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 07-08-2000).]
 
Cliff's tests on cardboard seem to have shown Talonite doesn't hold its edge on cardboard as well as premium steels, but I can confirm that ... I've got plenty of cardboard around. I don't have a herd of pigs available, sorry.... I wonder what kind of steel knife they were comparing to. It seems to me to make sense to compare Talonite to the best steels available since Talonite is more expensive than they are. Could it be that the people who think Talonite holds its edge better than steel haven't compared it to the best steels -- could that be the source of all the apparent disagreement? Does Talonite hold its edge better than most of the steel knives on the market but not as well as the best? I don't know. Let's find out.

I'd like to find out some facts here. All the accusations of bias and threats to abandon the discussion seem ridiculous to me. I don't think the knifemakers who are working with Talonite have any motivation to praise it beyond its merits as they perceive them; they all work with steels too and I doubt they make any more money for their time with Talonite. Much of the praise is coming from users who don't make knives and have no motivation to hype one alloy over another, and nobody has any conceivable motivation to disparage Talonite.

If Talonite is so great it should be very easy to come up with a test that shows it clearly outperforming the best steels in some way. If there's something wrong with Cliff's cardboard tests why doesn't somebody show it? There are a lot of Talonite knives out there by now and most of the people who have them must have premium steel knives too ... we all have access to cardboard ... few of us have herds of pigs but we all have cardboard! Of course you can go on ripping through cardboard with the dullest knife in the world; you can rip open boxes with the spine of a knife, but it doesn't take long to dull an edge detectably; it doesn't take hours of cutting cardboard to do that.

Wood is easily available, too, and most of us can get our hands on some rope without taking out a second mortgage on the house....

Rigorous comparison tests tend to test specific qualities of a knife. If Talonite holds its edge better than the best steels in overall real-world use there still could be some tests that would show it losing its edge faster than steel in specific conditions. If so then there must be other conditions in which it will greatly outperform steel. It should be very easy to find such a set of conditions. Let's do it!

-Cougar :{)
 
In the FWIW Dept.:

I just returned from a visit with Rob Simonich up in Clancy, MT.

While there, I watched Rob split seasoned wood for kindling with his Cetan by hammering on the spine. I also watched him split a penny I gave him by hammering on the spine.

I checked the blade for rolling or chips afterward and there was none, nada, zilch.

Pretty impressive in my eyes. And by the way, Rob didn't spare the effort. He was whacking that spine pretty damned hard.

So, there ya go. As for me, I'll be keeping my talonite/stellite knives, thank you very much.

Blues



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So far the debate has raged on the questions of performance and price. So far my talonite blades have performed impressively but I have not done any controlled tests or comparisons to similar knives of high end steel. I'll have a better idea later in the summer after I do real world use comparison out on the land, although I wouldn't presume to say my conclusions will be scientifically rigorous. But they will be valid from my personal perspective, however irrelevent to anyone else.But that's not what I'm posting about.
Noone yet has raised the question of potential toxicity. I'm not scaremongering because I like talonite alot, but the issue does concern me a little. Cobalt is potentially toxic according to some studies, although the risk at the levels likely encountered by a user or maker probably is safe. It even forms part of vitamin B. Still, talonite and cobalt are not identical, I don't think there are any long term studies of the effect of airborne particulate talonite inhaled or small amounts ingested as might happen in the course of food preparation. There are some worrisome results where cobalt is applied directly, so it can't be presumed to be completely safe. Steel is a known quantity, and that is an advantage.
This isn't going to stop me from using mine for all purposes, including preparing food out on the land, but I don't know if I'd use it to cook for my kids. Maybe I'm paranoid about the health of my kids. I'm even a little suspicious of titanium, although the research, such as it is, seems to say that's safe. What about the makers? Any concern about grinding the stuff? Any thoughts on toxicity and paranoia?
 
FWIW, I have knives in CPM-440V, ATS-34, BG-42 and also Boye Dendritics in cobalt and steel... sorry, no plain 440... I still like my Talonite (that is what this thread is/was all about) over stainless steels...
 
FWIW re coin testing: In the middle of 1982 the US changed to copper-plated zinc pennies. Zinc is so soft a knife made of just about any metal except lead can cut it. Pre-1982 copper alloy pennies are not much harder.

I cut a US nickel with a thin-edged (very thin) bait knife made of "420 stainless steel" (99 cents at Walmart) and notched the edge. Then I tried that same $4 "stainless steel" Jaguar I've duplicated tests with before and the edge was not visibly damaged. Both tests were done with the nickel in a vise, hammering the spine of the knife to drive the edge straight into the edge of the coin.

I conclude cutting nickels is not an entirely uninformative test; it can distinguish a 99 cent knife from a $4 knife.

-Cougar :{)

P.S. If everybody bought themselves a $4 knife and tried out every test they see advertised with it ... advertising would be different.... I've pierced a car door with it, stuck the point into wood and split it out, now I've cut a nickel with it ... if I had a tank available I'd run over the knife with it; I'm sure it would survive that, too....

:{)

P.P.S. I am not, of course, suggesting using a $4 420-J2 knife -- not unless you love sharpening so much you want a knife that needs to be sharpened after opening one cardboard box or a few letters. It isn't worth $4 for a using knife ... but it's well worth that just for the purpose of checking advertising and warranty claims.

:{)
 
Ok..a penny is soft and weak...so is talonite, so it follows that one will not cut the other.....His emphasis was on the spine pounded from what I read, and you didnt mention the wood spliting part, only the soft and weak penny that was split in half by the soft and weak knife and a very hard hammer????????????????? huh...????

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Um ... I don't think the message is getting through here.... You can pound on the spine of a 420-J2 folding knife with a hammer and cut a penny or a nickel or split wood, hammer as hard as you want; it won't hurt it. Don't take my word for it, try it for yourself ... it'll only cost you $4 and it's fun.
smile.gif


That, of course, does not prove Talonite has no advantage over 420-J2. It only proves if we want to demonstrate the superiority of a knife we're going to have to work harder at it than that.

By the way, when I bought that Jaguar I went through the whole basket and tried a number of them before I found one with a solid lockup (well ... fairly solid. There's some play in it but it does lock.) If you want to try stabbing anything with one make sure the lock locks first.

-Cougar :{)
 
superiority???? from what is inferred the stuff is soft and weak and not worth making a knife out of......those of us who like the stuff do NOT need to be convinced....WE ALREADY ARE!!

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Cougar, if you look at the tests you will find a strong reluctance to compare the same results to the better steels. They are presenting by themselves often using something that any blades can do as an example of high performance which is one of the most common ways to hype a material as you can be very misleading but you are not exactly lying.

For example, as for the animal tests, I have relatives who do a lot of hunting. They can all dress on average 1-2 moose for example without sharpening and they use what would be described here as very low end steels. Medium carbon content, no alloys, very soft. I have watched my grandfather butcher lots of animals including pigs without resharpening and he used whatever knife was given to him (he did it for other people).

The other sign of Talonite hype is the constant contradiction in description by those that are representing it as a good blade material. For example, when Simonich first noted that it did not cut rope well, I commented that if it has low bite when polished just leave the finish coarse. He replied saying that the coarse edge degrades almost immediately. However when I mentioned the same thing to Ron Hood he said that the micro-serrations do not break off and the edge will maintain an aggressive finish.

Or for example, Hood posted an extensive comparision between a Talonite blade and a Busse Combat one in which the blades were used on very harsh materials and the Talonite one was much more durable. However now it is being described as "well not the best thing for big blades". Yet it handles heavy edge stress better than a Busse Combat and doesn't chip or dent? If that doesn't set a functional standard I don't know what does.

Right above Bob commented that the edge does not roll given the right geometry. Which is simply false. No matter what geometry you use, even thick fully convex highly polished, the very edge is still extremely thin and will roll on even the best of steels (strongest) much sooner than you will see blunting due to wear. Because Talonite is much weaker it does this quicker than the high end steels. As Tom Mayo commented awhile ago when he noted that when most users say the knife has blunted they are just seeing edge roll.

These are just a few of the contradictions, there are lots more. Just search old posts.

There is also lots of information on Talonite from makers who do not feel that it makes as good a blade material as the high end steels. You don't see much of such discussion here for exactly the type of posts that appear in this thread. They don't want to put off possible customers or other makers. However at times such makers have make a comment here or there. If you search old threads you will find out who to drop an email to.

Blues :

Pretty impressive in my eyes.
Click to expand...

A $10 factory ontario machete will do that. That is the standard you are setting Talonite to.

Tom :

Ok..a penny is soft and weak...so is talonite, so it follows that one will not cut the other....
Click to expand...

Tom these are relative terms. Talonite is soft and weak compared to high end blade steels, it is strong and hard compared to copper - as are even the low quality cutlery steels like 420-J2.

from what is inferred the stuff is soft and weak and not worth making a knife out of.
Click to expand...

I never said that. However I do believe there are far better materials unless you want the extreme corrosion resistance of Talonite. Interesting enough, what you describe was pretty much exactly the attitude you had about Stellite 6K a couple of years ago before Talonite became a very hot blade material. Back then you were strongly pushing the CPM stailness steels including over Stellite 6k.

As for people have an agenda because they are not being positive and are always putting it down in threads. I stayed out of this thread until some very misleading remarks started being made. And as for adgendas, some of strongest promotion is coming from the makers that are selling Talonite blades. If someone found out that a maker was giving me $50 for ever positive comment that I made about his knives people would very rightly ignore anything I said about their knives. Well the makers are getting exactly this from every positive claim being made.

It boggles me that anyone would take a makers description of something he is selling as being unbiased. Is this the way you shop for products in general or is it just knife specific?


-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-09-2000).]
 
talonite works, talonite cuts, it hold an edge long and the edge will not roll, bend or chip much easier then on any other knife IMHO. everything else does'nt matter. i suggest that those of you, who don't own or at least used a talonite knife, go and get one to have some real live experience instead of this theoretic bullsh1t.

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Ray
MesserForum.net
 
Cliff, Cougar,

I am well aware of what cheap machetes, knives and even cheap khukuris are capable of. Most of my life all I ever owned was "cheap" knives and used them in every activity from backpacking to technical mountaineering.

When I made my post above I was reacting only to the fact that I have heard (ad nauseum) that talonite won't do this or that.

I don't ordinarily use my small knives for chopping unless some unusual circumstances arise.

The point I was making was that Rob pounded his blade through seasoned wood without hurting the edge and then did the bit with the penny. I merely point to it to state that the spine and edge of the three inch talonite knife can take that kind of abuse.
Whether other knives do so as well was not my point.

I am not a snake oil salesman and am not in the knife business. I don't care if you guys buy talonite knives or don't. To each his own. Either way it doesn't put any money or more knives in my pocket.

When I go on a two or three week motorcycle trip in hot, sweaty, or wet conditions, it is nice to have a knife along which requires no maintenance but is ready to be used and can take some degree of "abuse". The same for salt water diving and snorkeling down here. Likewise for long surveillances or other ops under the hot Florida sun.

Talonite may not be perfect, but it does fit the bill for some applications quite well. That is my point.

I am not interested in debating its merits/weaknesses until it's beyond redundant.

I've said all I intend to on the subject. Thanks for your understanding.

Blues

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