Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?

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In my review of CPM 440V I mentioned that the number of animals cleaned fell RIGHT INTO LINE with the article in Knives Illustrated by Phil Wilson...the number was so close to the one in the article it was eerie.

[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
Well, I've never butchered a hog, made a knife or been to the Amazon. I don't know if Cliff has an agenda or not, but here is my experience with using a Talonite knife on a daily basis for the last four months. It takes a very aggresive edge and is very easy to restore to sharpness. I went back to re-read my original post on this knife where I said it cuts through cardboard better than any knife I have. And that's true, as long as it has its initial edge, but IME, it loses that edge fairly quickly. I haven't found that legendary edge holding that others have commented on. I wanted to try Talonite because I live in a fairly humid area and work in an extremely humid environment (greenhouses). I appreciate the fact that Talonite is not going to rust, however, the AUS8A Endura I've carried for ten years has never rusted either. I don't discount anyone else's experiences, but for me Talonite did not fulfill my (admittedly high)expectations. Don't get me wrong, I like this knife and will continue to use it, but taking into consideration price/performance ratios I prefer the CPM steels.

Remember, I'm just one guy talking about one knife. Your truth may be different, but this is my truth.

Jack
 
There is nothing wrong with scientific tests, if they are scientific.

Cliff:
A scientific test is one where everything but one variable is controlled, and that variable is measured. That is, you have to cut exactly the same, first time to last time, then compare the number of cuts made before the edge reched some certain point of dullness. Saying 'I made xxxx slices through yyyy rope, and then the blade was dull enough that zzzz' is not scientific. Each slice was made by hand and was therefore not identical, so the results do not help you compare steels scientifically. If you want to rig up a jig to hold the knife exactly the same, and a mechanism to apply the exact sane force each time, you can call your tests scientific.

Non-cliff:
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Seeing as I have yet to hear of any actual scientific tests of knives, I'm not going to go cry in a corner or anything. I'll 'settle' for real-world tests. I know they are not scientific, so I don't say 'well, this blade butchered 5 hogs, and this one only did 4, so the one that did only 4 is junk.' The test is not that accurate that one hog is the difference between 'great' and 'junk.' Once I see several tests, each with a certain knife coming out ahead, I will say that one is better. If I see some people coming out ahead with one, and some people coming out ahead with the other, I'm likely to say that they are pretty close, and I can't tell which is actually better.

Conclusion? I'd love to see actual scientific testing of knives, but I have not so far, and I don't have the time and money to do it myself. Despite what some people (not directed against anyone in particular, just against a common misconception) think about engineers, when we can't get accurate numbers, we settle for 'good' numbers (hey, in some fields, 10% accuracy in considered amazing). I have nothing against real-world testing ,and have bought everything from knives to cars to computers to you-name-it based upon personal recommendations. More often than not, the personal recommendations proved to be better choices than what pure numbers might have shown. Not all of us engineers live in a vacuum; I spend most of my time re-designing stuff that was improperly designed in the first place by the type of engineers who forget that what they make will actually be used.

The point is, all of you who actually go out and test these knives, keep up the good work, there are some of us who do appreciate it.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
real world facts....If a knife can go thru one good sized feral hog....It holds an edge very well.
 
Jack,

Your experience really isn't out of line with some others. Gene Sederholm prized the wire edge on his Cetan but once lost didn't see much difference in cutting the materials he was working with. It was an interesting thread and Gene is an upstanding guy.

For me, once that wire edge is gone what's left still performs remarkably. As others have now postulated it may be the manner in which I or any other user with favorable edge holding field experience hold the knife or make a cut (draw versus push versus whatever) or it may be the types of materials cut and in what order. Heck I just don't know.

The bottom line from my knothole is that many have found the stuff to continue to cut when other materials require resharpening. A few haven't. That has also been true of CPM440V and any number of other materials and the issues go beyond just cutting prowess to ease of sharpening and any number of the myriad attributes we knifenuts explore. I do think that many who favor a wire edge and have routinely touched up their other blades may not be all that used to pushing a blade until it desperately needs resharpening. The differences in my hands between Talonite and more traditional materials conveys well in the post wire edge cutting. Matter of fact I believe my comments have always been that the suckers cut and cut and cut. The best nomiker I could think of to hang on that performance is edge holding.

So don't be too worried about sharing your honest experiences. You might try fiddling with how you make a cut, where pressure is applied, how much of a stroke, etc. and continue to compare the Talonite to your CPM knives. Things might appear different and then again they may not. Heck why is it I only get 24 mpg with my car but a CMSgt's wife I know with the same make and model gets 30 mpg? Must be the way I drive
smile.gif
!

All the best!


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-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
 
It helps me evaluate conflicting posts if I know whether the writers make money from the sale of Talonite or Talonite knives. I do not make money from the sale of Talonite or Talonite knives.

bug
 
Geez, someone throw some cold water! I have come to the conclusion that for me, I will not buy stainless steel knives for myself. From my small Tom Mayo ultralight TNT (which I carry daily) to my Mayo TNT-style neck knife (worn when in uniform) or my Allen Blade Talonite blades, Talonite is my knife "steel" of choice. You can choose whatever you like... Talonite works for me.
 
The more I read this thread the more confused I get. All I want to know is under what conditions will Talonite hold its edge better than the best steels? Sorting through all the personal attacks looking for some facts, it seems some people are arguing Talonite will not hold its edge better than the best steels in any conceivable comparison test, yet in real-world use it'll outperform the best steels ... as long as you don't compare it too directly. Is Talonite edge-holding like the monsters under the bed that are only there when the light is off?

I want to see the monster. The only limitation I have is I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on test materials -- no herd of pigs, no ton of fish. Is that the problem -- does Talonite only outperform the best steels when you have a herd of pigs or a ton of fish to process? Or can it outperform steel on something less expensive?

Why can't the Talonite users tell me how to prove how wonderful it is? All I want is some clear directions -- should I use a coarse edge and slice rope? Should I use a convex polished edge and pushcut rope? Or whittle wood, or what?

-Cougar :{)
 
Cougar,
I have recently found this thread, but because of opinions like the one offered by 'bug' above, I have resisted posting. It seems that some folks think that because we sell knives made of TALONITE, we are over 'hyping' the stuff. Well, we are proud of being able to offer a true production TALONITE knfe, so that more people can go out and use them, so as to formthere own real world experiences with the stuff,...like we[@ CAMILLUS] have. I simply love the stuff for a smaller utility/skinning knife.

On to your question,...testing. If you want to know how well TALONITE cuts cardboard, cut cardboard[or ask Butch Winter]. IF you want to know how well it cuts rope, cut rope. If you want to know if it makes a good skinning knife...well you gotta go skin some animals. If you want to know if it is THE BEST[we are starting to talk about absolutes now....] at something, you need and IDENTICAL knife, made out of other competitive materials, and perform the same tasks. I wanted to know how TALONITE compared to a quality stainless 'super steel', so I got Rob to make me another CETAN in BG42[I wanted to try that steel also]. I used both during the past deer season. The BG42 blade performed well, equating roughly to something between what I would have expected to a similar blade configuration of ATS-34 and another in A2. But, the TALONITE CETAN did significantly better. I could perform the tasks that I do to 'process' a whitetail,..skinning, 'popping' joints, boning out the meat, etc. until the meat is ready to put in the freezer, on approximately 3 deer, before I felt the need to resharpen with the BG 42 blade. With the TALONITE blade, I routinely went through 9-10 deer. Keep n mind, these are FIELD tests, and what I do to process a deer may differ VASTLY to what a hunter in another part of the country may do. I use the knife alot for tasks that others would use a saw or hatchet, because I 'disjoint' alot of bones that others saw in half. I also some out the meat on the spot, rather that waiting until the meat is at home ready to be cooked. We kill alot of deer, and bones take up space in the freezer
wink.gif
. Banging the thin blade into bones is tough on a thin edge, and the TALONITE CETAN has held up well,...no chips.

If you want to know how well if performs in a big chopper, be prepared to plunk down ALOT of $$$[remember this stuff is roughly 16 times the cost of ATS-34] and order one, or ask Steven Dick, Rob Simonich, Kit Carson, etc. Don't ask me, I can't afford one, and CAMILLUS definately has NO plans for making any large knives out of this material. TRUST me on that one. If you get one, by all means, let us know how it performs.

Sorry for rambling Coug, I guess I'm just kinda frustrated with this thread. When you read different opinions on this material, or anything on this forum, keep in mind that you are getting over 6000 different perspectives. At Camillus, we value these different views, as they let us step out of ourselves and see how others view products. But it can get a little confusing, especially when folks start preaching the TRUTH, at least as they view it
wink.gif




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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com
 
Would it be correct to say that a sharp (not wire, but maybe scraping-hair keen) edge will last longer in a good steel, but a mediocre edge will last much longer in the Talonite blade? Is that what we're seeing? A mediocre edge, that is useful for general cutting, and great for skinning, is lasting 'forever,' but that near-shaving-sharp edge that works so well for cardboard and paper is lost fairly quickly. Is that it?
confused.gif


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iktomi
 
Hello,

DANG IT COPFISH!!! see what ya started!!,

LMAO!!! Again , I like Talonite i have even cut with it,,,,surprise,,,surprise.

I carved and whittled a 1/2 inch thick by 6 inch wide by 13 inch long board of OAK taken off a pallet i broke up. No problem at all!!
and i whittled it to nothing but slivers.

but i suppose it didnt happen as i state, because i didnt have an independent board certified member of Consumer Reports at the test site,, Gesssh if ya dont like talonite Dont buy it, there are alot more people who like it i have found, than those who dont.

It kind of upsets me when people say makers are Hyping the material just to sell knives,
ive never Hyped my talonite blades to sell them, I usally sell them to people that already know and have made up there minds that talonite is what they want . And i think its Un-Professional for somone to make statements that we Makers who use Talonite Have to Hype the material to sell knives made from it. Get Real!!

my .02

Allen

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" You can make great knives and sell a few, Or make Great AFFORDABLE knives and sell many"
WEB SITE : http://hometown.aol.com/bladecutlery/index.html
 
I have recently found this thread, but because of opinions like the one offered by 'bug' above, I have resisted posting.
Click to expand...

You haven't resisted much. I, bug, posted my first two sentences on this thread today, July 13. The person who, "...recently found this thread..." actually found this thread on, or before, June 21. They say they "...resisted posting...." What they actually did was post to this thread three times before I wrote the two sentences they complain of.

They seem to feel that a posters financial interest in one of the most expensive knife metals in the world should not be considered while checking out the product before buying. That's like saying when buying a Smith & Wesson, don't bother to get the opinion of someone who purchased one, just ask Smith & Wesson if the pistol they sell is any good. That doesn't mean Smith & Wesson is over hyping. It means that buyer beware has been basic for a coons age. It means that I value Cliff and CopFish's opinions over yours.

I do not make money from the sale of Talonite or Talonite knives.


bug
 
bug,
I sincerely apologize, ...after reading your most recent post, I checked and see that I did indeed post on this thread last month. Man has this thread grown! I didn't realize that this was the same thread. Again, I apologize.

I understand that unbiased opinions are valuable when evaulating a product, that is one of the things that attracts us[CAMILLUS] to bladeforums. I always identify who I am and what company I work for when posting. I DO believe that there are many instances when makers[custom and production] opinions are of value here on the forums. If you feel that I have over-stepped the 'non-commercial' bounds that are set down by the BF staff, please let me know.

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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery www.camillusknives.com

[This message has been edited by Will Fennell (edited 07-13-2000).]
 
It's forgotten Will, no problem. Thank you for the apology. I agree with you that makers' opinions are of value here. I would say of great value. You and they are the Man In The Arena (of makers) whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood. They know stuff.

I also have no concern that you or any maker, "...overstepped the 'non-commercial bounds'...." My concern is that buyers understand the natural commercial interests makers have.

Thank you for grievously harming at least some of the terrible waiting periods so common in the custom market.

Take care,
bug



 
Will F. has always showen who he works for and what he sells. He has never hid the fact that he sells knives so what he says about knives he sells can be judged . If you really want to bust his balls about something this aint it. Now the 9 deer he shoots are so small all of them = one good sized dog is something else
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smile.gif
.
 
I thought Will's post was very informative and helpful. The fact that he has a pecuniary or commercial interest in Talonite knives was clear and up front, if that's important. Personally, I really am not very exercised over these conflict-of-interest concerns re the makers and vendors of talonite knives. I take Rob Simonich and Allen Blade, to name two, at their word and readily assume their honesty. Hell, to use Rob as an example, if I didn't buy one of his Talonites I would have bought something in a high carbon steel. I don't think Rob has to tout Talonite to sell as many knives as he can make. I'm also not overly exercised over the science versus field use debate. No offence guys, but if you think any of the testing and science here is really rigorous and theoretically sophisticated, you're not being honest with yourselves. The tests are interesting and I also think very useful. I personally find them very interesting and useful, but electron microscopy and quantum physics it ain't, for reasons already given by others.
How can anyone discount the real world experience of the members? This may not be MIT but by Cracky, this is the MIT of actual hands-on knife use and experience. Sort of, anyway
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. Doc Ron's post was important to me and to my comfort level in taking my talonite blades as my only blades up to the arctic next month. Others in the same vein were too. Geez, after the first few pages of this thread I thought I had been an idiot for having them made for that purpose. I'm still an idiot, but for different reasons.
Can't we just discuss the issues without the ad hominem crap and taking shots at each other? All you guys have so much experience and insight [well, most of you, anyway
smile.gif
], it gets lost in some of the mud sometimes. Anyways, that's my $.02 Canadian. Carry on.
 
HJK,

If you get a chance, send me an email off list, thanks.

Blues

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Live Free or Die

Some Knife Pix
 
If you want to know if it is THE BEST[we are starting to talk about absolutes now....] at something, you need and IDENTICAL knife, made out of other competitive materials, and perform the same tasks.
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. Make two identical knives of different alloys, and choose ideal dimensions and angles for the stronger alloy ... you'll find it'll be too thin for the weaker alloy to support the edge and edge-holding will be extremely bad; the edge will roll or indent or chip as soon as you try to use it.

If the edge is thick enough so it doesn't roll or indent or chip past the edge bevel nothing behind the edge bevel can affect edge-holding. Then all that affects edge-holding is the edge angle. It's easy to change that; I have permission to change it on the borrowed Talonite knife and I don't mind changing it on my own steel knives; I can change it back easily enough. I'm planning to start by comparing to a steel knife with an edge angle the same as whatever angle the Talonite knife arrives with.

I'm not discounting anybody's input but I want to see the monster myself.
smile.gif


I don't have a herd of deer available either. Some of us must have tons of meat to process, though, and a Talonite knife and a premium steel knife?

The idea that Talonite loses its sharpness more rapidly than steel early in the dulling process but, if the process isn't interrupted by sharpening, outperforms steel later on after both knives have been used a long time has been advanced before. That's testable. A very dull knife, even an unsharpened false edge, can be forced through meat or cardboard -- so the claim that Talonite can keep cutting meat or cardboard forever means nothing; so can steel. However, the claim that Talonite holds its edge late in the dulling process better than steel is testable. I figure to go on testing even after neither knife can shave at all, keep right on going, and see if the Talonite knife outperforms the steel knife eventually even if not at first.

-Cougar :{)
 
Hi Cougar,

Let me clear something up about the edge I use. For heavy field use there is little reason for a hair popping edge. It dulls too quickly. It may be good for cleaning a little trout and for impressing friends but beyond that I don't have much use for a razor edge.

I prefer a "field edge" it is sharp enough to slice a free hanging piece of standard bond paper from end to end (albiet a bit crookedly at times) but not sharp enough to cut hair unless I remove flesh at the same time. I don't cut much paper this way... I've learned how the edge feels when I run it across my finger nail.

About a month ago Rob came along with me on a 9 day survival trip and during THAT trip I used my hammer forged Tai Goo and Tim Lively blades. Both of these knives were forged in less than a day from a 56 Dodge truck spring... a process we video taped and have information about on our website.

How did they do? I can say that they held up as well as any "Modern" blade for digging, slicing and chopping. I can't make any "objective" statements as yet because I've had so little experience with them. 9 days of intense use is far too little for me to pass along any sort of opinion. It took me almost six months of hard use to move forward to the point where I could recommend Talonite. It took as long to recommend INFI. You may remember that I wrote the first field test evaluation of INFI after Busse sent me the first pieces to bust and the first knife to work. I think INFI has proven it's character and it's ability to hold an edge and take punishment. There was a lot of catcalls and the word "hype" fell trippingly from the lips of a certain someone back then.

Did Rob carry a big Talonite chopper? No...

As a matter of fact we built a forge in the wilderness from materials we scavanged. We tossed an old rusty horseshoe into the forge and with heavy wooden clubs managed to hammer it into the shape of a piece of bar stock. We needed it a bit shorter so Rob took an A2 Nordooh and hammered it through the red hot steel. You should be seeing the photos in TK mag in a few months. How'd it do... pretty damn good. It was serrated but hell, so what, it still cut and chopped fine.

What's the point of all this? Neither Rob nor any other blademaker has anything to gain with "hype". They make less money on Talonite blades because of the time and materials that go into making them. Still they persist at making them because they, like myself, truly believe that it is a metal worth having in a blade. I'm also saying that I know, and the pictures prove, that Rob is willing to test a material, a design and a product to literal destruction before the name goes on. That takes dedication and it is not "hype".

It upsets me when a chair warmer burns the air with theory and conjecture.

Whew!...

Anyone want the soapbox?
smile.gif


Ron


------------------
Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]

[This message has been edited by Doc Ron (edited 07-14-2000).]
 
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