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Talonite Good, Bad or Ugly?
- Thread starter copfish
- Start date
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Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,770
It's worth repeating I don't think anybody is acting like a snake oil salesman here -- least of all Blues, who isn't selling anything. Everybody tends to assume things that aren't normally done with a knife are abusive and stressful and it's impressive that a certain knife can be pounded through hardwood or coins without being damaged, not knowing that even the cheapest knives on the market can do those things without being damaged and they aren't abusive or stressful at all. That doesn't even mean they're particularly gullible -- it's a natural assumption. It doesn't mean the people doing it, even if they're selling knives, are deliberately being deceptive, either. I was impressed as all heck myself the first time I opened a tin (not aluminum) can with a knife. I ran around telling everybody about it; if I'd been selling knives I'm sure I would have demonstrated that in the sincere belief I was proving something. It was only after I tried it with every knife I had that I realized it's not an impressive test at all; any knife can do it.
We're back at square one -- a Talonite knife can be hammered through hardwood and coins; so can every knife tested so far except that 99 cent bait knife (I think that could do it if I reprofiled the edge) -- we know nothing more about Talonite than we did before we started hammering knives through things.
I want to prove that Talonite knife Cliff is lending me can hold its edge better than premium steels -- in some conditions, at least. I've got cardboard; I've got wood; I've got some nylon rope I don't mind cutting up.... I'm planning to keep dipping the knives in salt water while I work, and leave them overnight without rinsing or oiling, too. What else can I try?
By the way, my test for edge rolling is to strop the edge on the palm of my hand. After a knife has been used and is starting to dull it always feels different on one side than the other. Using a magnifying glass in a strong light shows it, too -- often it'll be indented rather than simply rolled over but always more on one side than the other.
-Cougar :{)
We're back at square one -- a Talonite knife can be hammered through hardwood and coins; so can every knife tested so far except that 99 cent bait knife (I think that could do it if I reprofiled the edge) -- we know nothing more about Talonite than we did before we started hammering knives through things.
I want to prove that Talonite knife Cliff is lending me can hold its edge better than premium steels -- in some conditions, at least. I've got cardboard; I've got wood; I've got some nylon rope I don't mind cutting up.... I'm planning to keep dipping the knives in salt water while I work, and leave them overnight without rinsing or oiling, too. What else can I try?
By the way, my test for edge rolling is to strop the edge on the palm of my hand. After a knife has been used and is starting to dull it always feels different on one side than the other. Using a magnifying glass in a strong light shows it, too -- often it'll be indented rather than simply rolled over but always more on one side than the other.
-Cougar :{)
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 7,147
Copfish, please don't take this the wrong way, because it is not aimed at you. However, your statement is too good an example to pass up: It is statements like these that make me the most skeptical of Talonite. I can bring a dulled 440V edge (Spyderco brand) back to shaving sharp as fast or faster than any other steel I use. Which is fortunate, because it appears to dull faster (in my usage) than any other steel I use. The reason I like 440V is because it has reasonable/fair corrosion resistance combined with easy resharpening, so I will live with it's edge holding.
Now, back to Talonite......?
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iktomi
Dangers of cobalt in Talonite
Cobalt in Talonite® is no more dangerous than cobalt in steel. Elemental cobalt used as a binder in tungsten carbide tool tips is reputed to cause problems when it is ground during the sharpening of the tips and then inhaled.
Here is a copy of my letter to Blade magazine.
"Gregory Harvey wrote an excellent letter. We work with both tungsten carbide and cobalt alloys, such as Talonite®. We can provide MSDS's free as well as a couple dozen references on research done in this area.
We also have a very good list of people who supply free information and sell equipment on air cleaning for even the smallest operation.
Hard metal disease affects the lungs. No matter what the material is it is not good to put millions of small, sharp particles in your lungs. The answer is not to breathe the dust in the first place."
This is a very complicated subject. We have a short explanation of 8 pages as well as references and papers from NIOSH (National Institute of Safety and Health) and articles from the journal Occupational and Environmental Medicine, which is the official journal of The American Industrial Hygiene Association.
Cobalt in Talonite® is no more dangerous than cobalt in steel. Elemental cobalt used as a binder in tungsten carbide tool tips is reputed to cause problems when it is ground during the sharpening of the tips and then inhaled.
Here is a copy of my letter to Blade magazine.
"Gregory Harvey wrote an excellent letter. We work with both tungsten carbide and cobalt alloys, such as Talonite®. We can provide MSDS's free as well as a couple dozen references on research done in this area.
We also have a very good list of people who supply free information and sell equipment on air cleaning for even the smallest operation.
Hard metal disease affects the lungs. No matter what the material is it is not good to put millions of small, sharp particles in your lungs. The answer is not to breathe the dust in the first place."
This is a very complicated subject. We have a short explanation of 8 pages as well as references and papers from NIOSH (National Institute of Safety and Health) and articles from the journal Occupational and Environmental Medicine, which is the official journal of The American Industrial Hygiene Association.
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 7,147
Only problem is it takes minimum of $240 AND/OR several months wait to prove that all this theory isn't bullsh!t. That's hard earned cash for me, and I've been taken before (initially very disappointed in 440V, see above; finally decided it wasn't so bad, since at least it sharpened easily).
Despite this, I'm almost ready to plunk down the cash on a Talon.
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iktomi
Talonite claims
Talonite® for knives is from the same family of Talonite® materials that are used in saw mills. In sawmills they make millions of cuts in highly fibrous material that can be very acidic. Because of the speed of the cutting edge temperatures can get to 1,000 F. In this cutting application Talonite® materials are superior steel in terms of usable life because they stay sharper longer particularly in corrosive environments.
I originally posted asking if the hand held knife user could appreciate the difference. Several thought they could and Rob Simonich agreed to make some knives. Rob had to do some learning to make good knives. The remark about ropes and the infamous pop bottle story are from very early knives. Rob now knows how to make much better knives and has developed some simple directions to explain to other knife makers how to make really good knives of Talonite®. Rob does things much better now than he did on the first knife. In all fairness, Rob did an incredibly good job of very rapidly and accurately figuring out how to best use a new material. It just took him a try or two.
In all honesty I do not understand how most of the tests described have any real value. The ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) has very specific testing procedures to define tensile strengths and other values. Our only real test for Talonite®
was whether it would make knives that really sophisticated knife users would like.
The way we look at testing, it is impossible for one test or any combination of tests to exactly measure and predict how materials will perform. Often we test materials and they do not perform as well as the data says they should. Sometimes we get much better results than was predicted. Talonite® gives us much better results in the hands of sophisticated users than we ever dreamed it would. It has a huge "Wow" factor, which means that a lot of people really like it.
Please notice that I said that " I do not understand" and not that they were wrong. Email is an incredibly imprecise way to communicate. I once came close to offending Bald One by trying a joke that just didn't work. Fortunately he is very gracious and we worked our way out of it. Kit Carson is also extremely good at taking a great deal of time and trouble to make his points very clearly. I am learning from him. Walt Welch is also teaching me about knife people however his advice is more "Tom, don't step on your own weenie quite so much." My point here is that it is very easy to misunderstand email and it appears that a lot of the conflict comes from that sort of a misunderstanding.
Another source of conflict (that was made very clear in this post by Jailhack and Cliff Stamp) is that there is a huge range of knife users and how they use knives. If you go back and read the posts with the assumption that everybody is right and honest then you start to see that a lot of folks are coming from entirely different directions.
Tom Walz
Talonite® for knives is from the same family of Talonite® materials that are used in saw mills. In sawmills they make millions of cuts in highly fibrous material that can be very acidic. Because of the speed of the cutting edge temperatures can get to 1,000 F. In this cutting application Talonite® materials are superior steel in terms of usable life because they stay sharper longer particularly in corrosive environments.
I originally posted asking if the hand held knife user could appreciate the difference. Several thought they could and Rob Simonich agreed to make some knives. Rob had to do some learning to make good knives. The remark about ropes and the infamous pop bottle story are from very early knives. Rob now knows how to make much better knives and has developed some simple directions to explain to other knife makers how to make really good knives of Talonite®. Rob does things much better now than he did on the first knife. In all fairness, Rob did an incredibly good job of very rapidly and accurately figuring out how to best use a new material. It just took him a try or two.
In all honesty I do not understand how most of the tests described have any real value. The ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) has very specific testing procedures to define tensile strengths and other values. Our only real test for Talonite®
was whether it would make knives that really sophisticated knife users would like.
The way we look at testing, it is impossible for one test or any combination of tests to exactly measure and predict how materials will perform. Often we test materials and they do not perform as well as the data says they should. Sometimes we get much better results than was predicted. Talonite® gives us much better results in the hands of sophisticated users than we ever dreamed it would. It has a huge "Wow" factor, which means that a lot of people really like it.
Please notice that I said that " I do not understand" and not that they were wrong. Email is an incredibly imprecise way to communicate. I once came close to offending Bald One by trying a joke that just didn't work. Fortunately he is very gracious and we worked our way out of it. Kit Carson is also extremely good at taking a great deal of time and trouble to make his points very clearly. I am learning from him. Walt Welch is also teaching me about knife people however his advice is more "Tom, don't step on your own weenie quite so much." My point here is that it is very easy to misunderstand email and it appears that a lot of the conflict comes from that sort of a misunderstanding.
Another source of conflict (that was made very clear in this post by Jailhack and Cliff Stamp) is that there is a huge range of knife users and how they use knives. If you go back and read the posts with the assumption that everybody is right and honest then you start to see that a lot of folks are coming from entirely different directions.
Tom Walz
thank you sir for the lucid explanation of why so many of us LOVE talonite!!
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http://www.mayoknives.com
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http://www.mayoknives.com
- Joined
- Feb 12, 1999
- Messages
- 692
copfish
Basic Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 1,419
I must be doing something wrong, it takes me forever to get a CPM-440V (Spyderco Military, Starmate and BF Native) back to shaving sharp, but my Talonite knives are just a few strokes to get back to hairpopping keen... You might check your CPM-440V to see if it was heat-treated right. Rumor had it, Spyderco had a few bad ones slip through.
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
- Messages
- 7,147
Copfish, did that. It is I, the infamous Outlaw_Dogboy, who sent his BladeForums Native back to Spydie-land and had it looked at. It Rc'd right on the money (55.5, from a desired 55-57 Rc), and I can even find the Rc mark. I have to assume the Military's is comparable, as the edge-holding is comparable. I use the Spyderco Sharpmaker, 203, and it works great. So, anyway... the mystery remains.
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iktomi
1. I think Rockspyder hit a very interesting point. There is a great deal of mystery as to why some people are better with a tool than other people even when the tools are identical. You even see this in CNC machines with different operators.
2. Tom & Tom
Tom Mayo is a good looking guy, lives in Hawaii and is a true artist who makes beautiful knives. Tom Walz is a scientist whose firm developed Talonite(r) for knives and who sort of wishes he were Tom Mayo in some ways. (e.g. Hawaii, good looking and artist)
2. Tom & Tom
Tom Mayo is a good looking guy, lives in Hawaii and is a true artist who makes beautiful knives. Tom Walz is a scientist whose firm developed Talonite(r) for knives and who sort of wishes he were Tom Mayo in some ways. (e.g. Hawaii, good looking and artist)
Tom (Walz), I certainly appreciate the lucidity in which you point out that tests in and of themselves are not always reliable predictors of performance. That was the point I lamely tried to make earlier in stating that real world usage must augment NDT and destructive testing while also being ever mindful of design objectives and limitations.
And you're spot on about Rob. He has done an outstanding job helping to determine the validity of Talonite as a blade material. I was priviledged to have been very involved in those early efforts as an end user (which I described in depth in my article in To The Point e-mag). Having the first fixed (Simonich Talonite Wambli) and folding (Simonich REKAT Talonite Carnivore) blades made by Rob, as well as Trace Rinaldi's first Talonite (Chimera) knife, I am well aware of what went into making them exceptionally functional. Both have refined their offerings in terms of pure finese. As an example Rob added much more file work in his later Carnivores.
I've yet to get a Mayo knife, but Tom it's just a matter of time (and money
). Been overhauling my house which has put a crimp on my knife acquisitions. Want this place as maintainence free as possible by the time I retire in a few years
!
Tom (Walz), thanks too for clarifying the query about toxicity. I'd forgotten to address it although much on that topic is in both the archives here and on Marion David Poff's (aka Eye's) web site. Talonite blades are quite safe to use around food. Isn't it Kellogg's that uses Talonite in one of their grain processes?
And finally, lest those wonder, I have no financial interests in Talonite although I've kidded Rob more than once that I would have loved the opportunity to buy in when he pulled a Kiam of Remington. Rob liked Talonite so much he became a distributor! I simply am what my signature block states: a "certified Talonite enthusiast"!
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-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
And you're spot on about Rob. He has done an outstanding job helping to determine the validity of Talonite as a blade material. I was priviledged to have been very involved in those early efforts as an end user (which I described in depth in my article in To The Point e-mag). Having the first fixed (Simonich Talonite Wambli) and folding (Simonich REKAT Talonite Carnivore) blades made by Rob, as well as Trace Rinaldi's first Talonite (Chimera) knife, I am well aware of what went into making them exceptionally functional. Both have refined their offerings in terms of pure finese. As an example Rob added much more file work in his later Carnivores.
I've yet to get a Mayo knife, but Tom it's just a matter of time (and money
Tom (Walz), thanks too for clarifying the query about toxicity. I'd forgotten to address it although much on that topic is in both the archives here and on Marion David Poff's (aka Eye's) web site. Talonite blades are quite safe to use around food. Isn't it Kellogg's that uses Talonite in one of their grain processes?
And finally, lest those wonder, I have no financial interests in Talonite although I've kidded Rob more than once that I would have loved the opportunity to buy in when he pulled a Kiam of Remington. Rob liked Talonite so much he became a distributor! I simply am what my signature block states: a "certified Talonite enthusiast"!
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-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
look...I am still charging you for those knives Im making no matter how much you flatter me...so knock it off....Im 53 and overweight....the glory days are long gone!! Talonite Rulz!!!!
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http://www.mayoknives.com
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http://www.mayoknives.com
Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Good thread!
I have gotten numerous e-mails asking me to post arguments to some of the posters in this thread.
I have a hard time arguing with folks that use words I dont understand, over complicate things and use quotes in all their posts. (Yea you Cliff!)
I dont feel they are a bit smarter than me, just spent more time in school whereas I spent more time with real experience. (Eight grade education with GED)
This thread has brought me back to an earlier thought that got me in a different argument, and that is the satisfaction of the customer. To me this is where the rubber meets the road. So when Butch Winter says his Talonite knife has been the best cardboard cutter he has seen ever, and the CEO's of 2 knife manufactures and a knife writer says they went through 5 wild hogs including feild dressing, disjointing and deboning with no sharpening, and a commercial fisherman tells me did 800 pounds of Halibut with no sharpening, etc. etc. do you call that hype? Are you guys calling these men with reputations for honesty liars? I dont, I call it FEILD TESTING! Feild testing is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion. So many of the so called "experts" dont have a clue about feild testing but sit at their computer screens and type out what they think are opinions that the whole world will see and nod their heads and say "If he said it it must be right!" It dosent work that way and their arent any knife Gods and their isnt a Holy Grail blade material. The only hype I have seen in this thread is from a few that dont like Talonite. One poster hasent even used a Talonite knife! ha ha ha ha How can I take him seriously? Guys, it is OK with me if you dont like Talonite, dont buy any Talonite knives! I vote with my wallet and you can too, it is called freedom of choice, which we value very, very, highly here in the good ol USA! You should try it.
It has been mentioned in a different thread about agendas, I will ask again Cliff Stamp, what is your agenda? I heard from a source that I consider very good that you have made the statement "I can ruin any knifemaker" Is that is what it is about, power? If it is I am not worried, your youth and imaturity show in your posts and I am not intimmidated, I just dont have time for this $hit. This isnt an attack on you Cliff, but a question that I think needs answering due to the numerous statements you make that seem to rile people. There, it is on the table. Your turn.
Thanks you all for your opinions and experiances with Talonite, Good, Bad, and Ugly!
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www.simonichknives.com
I have a hard time arguing with folks that use words I dont understand, over complicate things and use quotes in all their posts. (Yea you Cliff!)
This thread has brought me back to an earlier thought that got me in a different argument, and that is the satisfaction of the customer. To me this is where the rubber meets the road. So when Butch Winter says his Talonite knife has been the best cardboard cutter he has seen ever, and the CEO's of 2 knife manufactures and a knife writer says they went through 5 wild hogs including feild dressing, disjointing and deboning with no sharpening, and a commercial fisherman tells me did 800 pounds of Halibut with no sharpening, etc. etc. do you call that hype? Are you guys calling these men with reputations for honesty liars? I dont, I call it FEILD TESTING! Feild testing is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion. So many of the so called "experts" dont have a clue about feild testing but sit at their computer screens and type out what they think are opinions that the whole world will see and nod their heads and say "If he said it it must be right!" It dosent work that way and their arent any knife Gods and their isnt a Holy Grail blade material. The only hype I have seen in this thread is from a few that dont like Talonite. One poster hasent even used a Talonite knife! ha ha ha ha How can I take him seriously? Guys, it is OK with me if you dont like Talonite, dont buy any Talonite knives! I vote with my wallet and you can too, it is called freedom of choice, which we value very, very, highly here in the good ol USA! You should try it.
It has been mentioned in a different thread about agendas, I will ask again Cliff Stamp, what is your agenda? I heard from a source that I consider very good that you have made the statement "I can ruin any knifemaker" Is that is what it is about, power? If it is I am not worried, your youth and imaturity show in your posts and I am not intimmidated, I just dont have time for this $hit. This isnt an attack on you Cliff, but a question that I think needs answering due to the numerous statements you make that seem to rile people. There, it is on the table. Your turn.
Thanks you all for your opinions and experiances with Talonite, Good, Bad, and Ugly!
------------------
www.simonichknives.com
Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Whew, that was the longest post I ever made! A couple things that I wanted to bring up but didnt get to in the above post was,
1) To properly cite a quote, the words should be put within parentheses and at the end of the quote the date and literary reference from which the quote came from should be stated. A person can get in lots of trouble for misrepresenting anothers words, reguardless of intentions.
2nd, In reference to the contrast contradiction comparison commie, constitutional, constipation comment- Believe it or not, Ron Hood is not my alter-ego and I am not his. We are two different people Cliff, with different opinions, viewpoints, and results.
Think Ill have a nother beer now, :0
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www.simonichknives.com
1) To properly cite a quote, the words should be put within parentheses and at the end of the quote the date and literary reference from which the quote came from should be stated. A person can get in lots of trouble for misrepresenting anothers words, reguardless of intentions.
2nd, In reference to the contrast contradiction comparison commie, constitutional, constipation comment- Believe it or not, Ron Hood is not my alter-ego and I am not his. We are two different people Cliff, with different opinions, viewpoints, and results.
Think Ill have a nother beer now, :0
------------------
www.simonichknives.com
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,770
My agenda is to do some rigged tests to make Talonite look bad in the hope that the steel mills will pay me millions of dollars. There are some problems with that I still haven't solved, though; I could use some help here. Can anybody help me figure out how to rig a test to make it look like Talonite loses its edge cutting cardboard faster than a premium steel knife? If I don't cut the same pieces of cardboard with both knives I'm afraid it'll be too obvious the test is rigged ... is there some invisible substance I could paint stripes on the cardboard with that would be really abrasive?
The other problem I need some help with is getting in touch with the steel mills ... they're not answering my emails.
-Cougar :{)
The other problem I need some help with is getting in touch with the steel mills ... they're not answering my emails.
-Cougar :{)
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2000
- Messages
- 3,221
Y'know what? This is why I'm taking Tom Walz up on his offer of loaning out a Talonite CUDA for testing. I haven't used Talonite, so I want to try it before I make any strong statements. It isn't a steel, so predicting its performance based upon my previous experience with various steels doesn't work (ie, I haven't used 440A, but I can reasonably say that it will not out-perform 440C in edge-holding). I'm willing to accept the claim of virtually absolute corrosion resistance, as I have yet to hear anyone argue against it, as far as I can remember. I've heard too many contradictory claims about cutting performance to say anything along those lines, so a real-world test would probably be best
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
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