Tell me again why we need a knife??

[JackBauer24]

Thanks runningboar, you inspired me. Unlike many of you here, I have not been very disciplined on practicing and expanding my bushcraft skills. I can navigate, improvise, and build a fire in bad conditions, but some of the friction fire and scavenged tinder stories here just impress the heck out of me.

So Monday, at the end of my 45 minute walk home from work on a beautiful 5 degree moonlit night, I spontaneously walked right past my house, about a half mile further out into the juniper. Without stopping at home to grab any fancy gear, I wanted to see if I could really get a fire started as the temperature crept towards zero.

Found a small piece of snow-free frozen ground, used my office-edc Spyderco Ladybug (!) to finely shred some juniper bark and dry grass, and before long had a nice little fire going.

I stopped at finger-diameter sticks. If I had it going that well, that was success enough for me.

I haven’t started a fire since last fall. It felt good to succeed in low-single digits, getting a real fire going before my hands stopped working.

I agree that, in general, skills trump gear (and weigh less too). However, as has been noted above, this *is* a knife forum.

I propose the following: practice your skills, seek new ones, buy lots of nice knives, repeat.

what did you use to start the fire?

 

[sunnyd]

.. I propose the following: practice your skills, seek new ones, buy lots of nice knives, repeat.

Ahhhh, Common sense in a nutshell!.:thumbup:

 

[Farnsrocket]

what did you use to start the fire?

Yeah, what he said.

 

[skammer]

Thanks
I agree that, in general, skills trump gear (and weigh less too).

This only applies if you have the skills. Most do not have the basic skill to start fire without gear thus in this instance gear trumps skill.

Its situation dependant too. If you are in the desert water and shelter trumps everything.

Skam

 

[tradja]

what did you use to start the fire?

A mini-bic. Hey, it's what I had on me.

I was just excited that I actually stayed out in the cold and started a fire with what I happened to have on me and found tinder.

Usually when camping, I use paper as tinder.

My goal was to see if I could get a fire started on 5 degree night before my fingers got cold, without stopping at my house to get firesteel, a handful of dryer lint, and a nice fixed blade or three.

 

[Zombie Zeke]

On this forum we discuss the merits of knives for Real Life Survival Situations, protection against lions and bears, . It seems every other thread is arguing over whether or not you need a big, burley he man knife or a wee, little girly knife in order to survive. Lots of people have stated that other people can stake their lives on a cheap blade but not them, they will only settle for a blade from the finest materials made and tested to the very limits of modern technology. Others seem to think that about any knife is OK.

Just exactly how much of these discussions is fueled by machismo and fantasy, IMO pretty much all of it. What is a real life survival situation, and if your in one why do you need a big knife, or any knife for that matter. I think there are a lot of things on my list far above any knife.

1. A detailed plan, with coordinates if possible, and a time schedule, and how long before help is called left with a dependable person before you leave.

2. A cell phone

3. A map and compass and know how to use it

4.The best clothes and shoes/boots you can afford with extra layers in a daypack

5. The ability to make fire now

6. Water and/or a way to purify it

7. Something to use for overhead cover, a siltarp, space balnket, poncho or the like

8. A signalling device, at the least a whistle, better yet a PLB, flaregun with flares, or a can of orange smoke

9. A few power bars or the like

10. The ability to stay calm and think, mental preparedness

I have been really digging lists lately.

I am sure that I left some things off but all of the things I listed IMO are more important than a knife.

If you are lost, chances are one maybe two nights is about all you will spend in the out of doors. What do you need a knife for, where I live I don't need one to build a fire, if I am lost long enough to need to build traps I am in very serious trouble, thinking about self defense is almost stupid, again if it comes down to my pocket knife against a determined foe, man or beast, I am in dire straights. If you are injured to the point that you can't walk out, then I would rather have a whistle than a knife.

I guess to sum things up and and quit rambling, maybe before arguing about what type of knife you need, an expensive, durable knife you can trust or a simple SAK or Mora, maybe the first thing is to think realistically about what you actually need it for? Mental masturbation is fun, thinking about TEOTWAWKI, zombies, and aliens but every now and again a good dose of the truth might help you decide what you really need. Chris

Your list is great but as you eluded to in the beginning of your post you don't have a fart in the wind shot if that bear or lion comes stalking down your well thought out trail.

I'll take the knife.

 

[tradja]

This only applies if you have the skills. Most do not have the basic skill to start fire without gear thus in this instance gear trumps skill.

Its situation dependant too. If you are in the desert water and shelter trumps everything.

Skam

Sure, but what I meant was that (again, in general, and IME) I've seen lots of people with lots of gear and few/no skills, and (fewer) people with modest gear but strong skills.

In some of my pursuits, I'm the first guy; in some, I'm the second guy, but I always aspire to be(come) the second guy.

Yes, living and adventruing in arid environments the past few years, you just can't fake water! :thumbup:

 

[runningboar]

Your list is great but as you eluded to in the beginning of your post you don't have a fart in the wind shot if that bear or lion comes stalking down your well thought out trail.

Yeah pretty much a fact of life, unless your knife shoots .429 caliber bullets or bigger. Chris

 

[runningboar]

Good job tradja, I think fire is probably the most important woods skill. I also enjoy plant and animal identification, especially plants that make good tinder and animals that taste good. Chris

 

[hollowdweller]

Just exactly how much of these discussions is fueled by machismo and fantasy. Chris

Well probably most of it But it does make for some good talk around the computer campfire when we aren't outside

 

[Thomas Linton]

My facts are dragging about 3-4 dead hypo patients out of the woods a year. I dont need an analysis to determine "Hypothermia is a major cause of wilderness death".

Its not the only cause and it can be seasonal and environmentaly related but its a major threat.

There is no true database on SAR activities or rescues. the stats are regional or individual team at best. There should be a database of all SAR facts but it takes time and money.

3 weeks ago we had an elderly lady go missing on a walk we found deceased in cool wet weather and the cause of death in the media was listed dementia and injury. It was clearly the elements that killed her.

How many deaths due to injury that actually didnt kill the subject gets the blame but hypothermia was the end cause? Its very murky and subjective.

Skam

I always admit that conventional wisdom conflicts with the only three studies. I started out looking for proof that, as Lundin claims, hypo/hyper are so far-and-away the biggest wilderness killers that the others don't matter. I found what I found. I asked every government agency that preaches on the subject where they got their numbers. They either quote each other (and around and around we go.), tell me "everyone knows," or don't answer.

And yes, dead is dead - 100%. Sorta like the company that sells you a lemon and wants to tell you 99% of their customers are happy. You are still 100% unhappy.

The New Hampshire SAR statistics are respesented as being all SAR cases for a multi-year period in the State of New Hampshire. It's a small state but an outdoor destination for many from the New York-Boston metroplex. Nice contrast in biozones from the western U.S. or the State of Washington.

Now a real issue is whether a guy who gets hypothermic and falls dies of a "fall" or "hypothermia." The studies use "official" causes of death. So go figure.

If you fall in cold water and the cold diminishes your ability to keep head above water, you probably get counted as drowned, but that likely has little to do with shelter, fires, -- or knives. It has to do mostly with water safety, a survival topic pretty much ignored here or in any wilderness survival forum.

"Very murky and subjective."

 

[tradja]

Good job tradja, I think fire is probably the most important woods skill. I also enjoy plant and animal identification, especially plants that make good tinder and animals that taste good. Chris

Fire is important and there is something very satisfying about practicing the various fire skills (look how much we talk about it here and on other fora).

In my adventures (mostly long-distance hiking), I seem to practice navigation a lot. Part of this is necessity -- while I'm on journey, I must navigate pretty much continuously or I'll get lost (or miss water sources). Of course, strong navigation skills could help prevent you from getting lost or running out of water in the first place!

On the other hand, I don't need to practice firestarting all day long. And realistically, after a long day on the trail, I just use my DIY alcohol stove.

The only time I have spent an unplanned night out was because I was nav-careless, involved in conversation, and wound up 10-12 miles off route. Of course, this wouldn't have been a big deal except it was the one night of a 5-month hike where we had arranged to have our overnight gear shuttled ahead!

Back closer to OT, that night, I don't recall using my knife or pondering which $300 fixed blade I wished I had brought. We were mostly engaged in:

• gathering firewood
• being glad I had a foam sit pad to sleep on
• wishing we had more food
• wishing that our sleeping bags weren't 20 miles away at a road crossing

EDIT: I'm not saying a knife isn't a great thing to have. I love knives.
EDIT2: I love big knives AND small knives.

 

[runningboar]

[*]wishing that our sleeping bags weren't 20 miles away at a road crossing

Man that sucks and can make for a awful long night.


What kind of alcohol stove do you prefer? I used homemade ones of various designs until my favorite got stepped on by a friend of mine.

I have since switched to a trangia, it is heavy but I think Hulk Hogan could jump up and down on it with no ill efect. Chris

 

[tradja]

Man that sucks and can make for a awful long night.

Wasn't so bad. The weather was nice and we weren't hurt or wet. It was an interesting and valuable experience without a high price -- the "real deal" without being real dangerous.

If, OTOH, the weather was bad or if we had been unable to hike the remaining 20 miles to a road the next day, a knife would have been very useful for shelter/bed construction and firewood prep.

However, in my specific situation, if I could have had either my Dozier or my sleeping bag magically appear, I would have chosen the sack.

But in the oft-mentioned RSS (Real Survival Situation), you have only what you have, and I very rarely have a sleeping bag in my pocket.

What kind of alcohol stove do you prefer? I used homemade ones of various designs until my favorite got stepped on by a friend of mine.

I have since switched to a trangia, it is heavy but I think Hulk Hogan could jump up and down on it with no ill efect. Chris

I used a primitive self-designed Sterno can stove the second time I thru-hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. I switched to a "more refined" Pepsi-G stove for the CDT and like it much better. I like that it's DIY, quiet, light, and has no moving parts. Near the end of the CDT and on overnight ski tours since, I've even used it to melt snow for water and it works pretty well once it gets warmed up.

I think that an important distinction frequently lost in these and similar discussions is between camping, hunting, backpacking, hobbyist bushcraft, and survival. They are not all the same activity/situation.

Can you go camping without a knife and have a good time? Sure. I used to be able to also, before finding Bladeforums.

Are there many survival situations where you wouldn't benefit tremendously from having a knife? No.

 

[pict]

Running three guys through my course last week I was struck by how machete intensive it was. We had the big blades out alot, clearing campsites, making tinder, lighting the fire with the Doan tool, breaking trail during the compass navigation, digging out a seep, etc. It got me all fired up (no pun intended) to do a "Machete only" trip sometime.

Even then I think it will wind up being a "basic kit" only trip with a few select guys because the other stuff is just as important and each item we carry solves multiple problems you wouldn't want to solve with just your machete.

Whenever anyone leaves camp they have to carry their basic kit on their person: Machete, knife, Doan tool, compass, whistle, canteen w/ cup, poncho, and cordage. Most of the guys will stuff in a snack, pair of work gloves, the iodine solution or chlorine tablets, and the PVC filter, and if they are really thinking the mini-maglight as well.

The machete solves a great many problems, but it is part of a system designed to get you through the night after you discover you got lost with an hour of sunlight left. Nobody ever gets in trouble at 8 AM with a full day ahead of them to prepare for the night. If you have a well packed daypack or well filled pockets and a well rounded skill set to make good use of the stuff you have you are back to camping.

It is great to practive survival skills but you quickly realize that when you have to pull all of it together at the same time that TIME itself is against you. I hammer my guys with that time factor. You can use your knife to make a shelter, and friction fire, and boil water in a bark container, etc, but can you do all that starting at 5:30 PM in a drizzle with just you and a woodlot? Now throw in an injury or a sick friend, or as happened to me once, a mind splitting migrane and a 13 year old daughter to take care of. That basic kit list starts to look pretty good.

Knife skills and bushcraft are an important back-up and fantastic hobby but they don't take the place of planning and preparation for things to go south. You just plain run out of time. Mac

 

[tradja]

If you have a well packed daypack or well filled pockets and a well rounded skill set to make good use of the stuff you have you are back to camping.

:thumbup: This is a great observation, and this is the reason I carry some items and try to practice my skills -- if I do get caught out or something happens, I would prefer that the situation more closely resembles "camping" than "survival".

a mind splitting migrane and a 13 year old daughter to take care of.

That, sir, is rough, and complicates an already difficult situation. It's a great example of the unexpected circumstances we might have to deal with in a survival situation.

 

[sodak]

I get migraines also, and there's not much worse. It really saps you...