Tempering talk

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Sep 9, 2003
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I think one topic that is very confusing to smiths is tempering, mostly because smith see it as such a simple follow up operation that we don’t bother to look much deeper into the subject. From calling the entire hardening operation “tempering” (that one drives me insane!!:mad:), to almost dismissing it as a second thought, tempering is too often glossed over in many otherwise well written texts. Due to the number of posts with questions regarding this topic, I feel another voluminous explanation coming on so get comfortable…

Forgive me but I will need to cover some of the mechanisms of hardening and quenching in order to emphasis the importance of what happens in tempering.

As-quenched steel of sufficient carbon content will have undergone a radical transformation beginning when the quenching process reaches between 500F and 400F, at this point the fcc atomic arrangement of austenite will find the urge to transform into something a little more stable overwhelming.

FCC.jpg


Iron prefers to be bcc at room temperature and would have quickly done this at a much higher temperature if you hadn’t outpaced its ability to do so by quenching it, but now it has a problem.

BCC.jpg
In order for the iron atoms to drop back into the bcc configuration it can’t have things in the way, but you trapped these carbon atoms in between them and then cooled things to the point that they would loose hands down in a race with an arthritic snail (at higher temperatures, due to their size, the carbon atoms would leave Jesse Owens in their dust but they need heat to do this). So now the show is beginning and you have iron atoms wanting to take their seats but can’t get in their theater chairs because the isle and rows are littered with all these narcoleptic carbon atoms. By the way the movie playing is “Something’s Got to Give”*.

What happens next is what differentiates martensite from most of the other phases you normally deal with in which the carbon atoms just get out of the way and sit in their own little sections reserved for them. As strain builds from cooling the austenite (comprised of the iron and carbon all mixed together) a shift from fcc is inevitable but it will not be gentle diffusion, it will require a radical deformation of the matrix, whole planes of atoms within the matrix will tilt on angle to initiate a shearing action at the interface of the old fcc and the new phase that will be distorted in bct (body centered tetragonal), not bcc, in order to accommodate the trapped carbon.

tet.jpg


Unlike diffusive changes this reaction doesn’t give a hoot in hell about time, it wants continuous drop in temperature, stop the cooling at any point to hold and there will be no more tilting and shearing until the cooling continues, hold it for an hour or hold it for a year, the shearing will not continue until it gets cooler. What could happen however is the austenite could stabilize and decide not to give even when the cooling starts again. This is also how alloying affects retained austenite, it strengthens the matrix so that it can better resist the tilting and shearing, thus you need extra freezing to totally convert the reinforced austenite.

I hope the previous paragraphs explained why it is important not to mess with the continuous cooling until Mf is reached, however it is worth mentioning that many alloys have Mf above 120F, but some have a lower one, you need to learn about your steel. I never said that tempering warm steel is not a good thing asl long as Mf has been reached. Just it is very important to emphasize certain things to people in order to avoid misinterpretation, I have just seen many people taking the “hand warm” thing too far and rushing to temper steel that has not reached Mf. Some hands can handle more heat than others and many of the steels we work with could have around 10% left to go at around 200F, so get right to the temper but please be aware of Mf. I also hope that the previous paragraphs will establish some important points for the following paragraphs.

When Mf is reached (Mf by the way stands for “martensite finish” and designates the point at which the austenite to martensite transformation should be complete) you will have a blade with a make up at the atomic stacking level that is very distorted and full of unimaginable amounts of stored energy, if this is not dealt with as soon as possible, once again – something will have to give! And now we get to tempering…

* the original unfinished film with Marilyn, not the recent Nicholson nonsense;)
 
This is the only operation that should be called tempering, I am an advocate of public flogging for anybody who calls hardening “tempering”:grumpy:.

Taking my theater analogy you now have unhappy iron atoms crowding, sitting and standing on trapped carbon atoms that got caught in the section reserved for iron, who are rude and talk all during the movie anyhow so the carbon atoms really prefer their own seats next to other skinny carbon atoms. But the only way those trapped carbon atoms will move anytime this year is if you give them the heat required to open the path and get them going. So if you take your fully hardened steel and begin to heat it again, diffusion will begin, at these lower temperatures it will be so slow that you will not be able to readily perceive it but it is there. The first thing that is going to happen when you reach around 250F (these will all be generic temps since alloying will effect this as well) is that the trapped carbon atoms will be able to wiggle out to more comfortable positions and allow a relaxation of the matrix on the order of that experienced by a fat man on a toilet who ate a pound of cheese before three wet burrito’s. One will see no significant change in hardness, but there will be a conversion from bct toward the much more stable bcc. This is the “snap” tempering that mete often mentions, and will buy you some time if you cannot get to the full temper right away. Now at least some carbon atoms have found an open seat and aren’t under the feet of the iron atoms.

If you continue heating beyond this the carbon will move even more and be able to gather in concentrations in places they prefer. But there may be other atoms in the theater, for example chromium is a grossly obese atom who just loves those cute little carbon guys and will grab them and say “here little fella sit right next to me and have some popcorn, and if any iron atoms gives you any flack I will put them in their place!”, but this is less of an issue now that it is later on. As the spaces between the iron atoms are freed up they get to relax a bit more resulting in an overall lowering of hardness in the steel. It is at this stage that tempering carbides begin to form.

At around the 400F range diffusion is so slow that what takes minutes above 1300F takes hours or days, and the carbon atoms can only concentrate at submicroscopic volumes, so tempering carbides start out unseen even with a microscope. However their overall effect is very evident, untempered martensite looks like pure white splinters of broken glass, while just a little tempering will quickly darken it and soften the edges little. Other carbides, like those left undissolved in austenitizing, are also very white in appearance but tempering carbides are always very dark.
w2bct.jpg


In the 375F to 400F range the initial drops in overall hardness will be seen. I rarely need to investigate a persons methods much more when I hear them say that they temper at 375F or less on a steel with .6% or more carbon, it is obvious that they didn’t fully harden it to begin with. Many alloys that we work with could use 400F as a starting point on tempering, and may need much higher temperatures for their intended use if full hardness was obtained.

What happens after 400F gets interesting. Diffusion will continue to gain momentum stronger secondary carbides will begin to form. Retained austenite will be affected. Some say that it could break down into pearlite, but I must take exception with this since pearlite is characterized by its lamellar structure which results from the diffusive rate distinctive to the 1000F range. These phases are different configurations and spacings of ferrite and carbide but are not the same overall. I would prefer to say that the austenite is depleted of enough carbon, due to diffusion, to render it much less stable and thus it will convert to martensite upon cooling. Yes mete, I know one can get retained austenite in low carbon steel, but substituational atoms or ferrite are not moving much at this temp so the process of elimination leaves the carbon.

If one continues to heat the steel to 500F some alloys will encounter a very annoying issue known by it technical name as TME (tempered martensite embrittlement) an obnoxious little situation where the accumulation of brittle carbides will cause a drop in impact strength along with a drop on hardness, creating a lose- lose situation.

L6temp.jpg


It pays to know of your alloy may experience this and either stop short of these temperatures and live with a higher hardness or shoot through it and go for a higher toughness.

Beyond 650F the carbides will become course enough to see with the microscope and hardness will drop below levels suitable for a knife blade. As one keeps heating toward 1000F and above the carbides will become bright shiny spheroidal cementite and you will move from tempering to stress relieving or annealing, where all the carbon atoms will have moved into balcony seats reserved just for them where they will not have to interact at all with the obnoxious iron atoms who will fill the main floor and fall asleep by the time the final credits roll.

So there are several mechanisms at play in the tempering process, and it is oversimplifying to say that it is just a softening operation to counter the hardening, since depending upon the temperature, and times used one can get differing degrees of toughness that may or may not be proportional to the level of hardness. This is very important in knife blades where the greatest strength for a given toughness is often the ideal.

My usual disclaimer will apply here. I am trying to clarify the process for folks who have not had the opportunity for heavy research that some have had, as per the questions that prompted it. So if those who have researched it would bear with me and let the fact that I didn’t use precise technical terms slide for their sake I would greatly appreciate it. I am not trying to write a material science textbook, I am just trying to help some guys wanting to treat some blades understand a little better. Thank you.
 
Kevin,

Nice tutorial.


I've settled on a process fo D2 that seems to work best for me:
air quench from 1875, dry ice for 2 hours, draw twice at 500. (no flash temper)

Crucible's sheet for 154 CM and Uddeholm's sheet for D2 both explicity state that if you are go to use a freezing treatment that it is most effective directly after reaching RT.

I find it somewhat strange that we have no problems with letting fresh martensite sit at zub-zero for hours but hear that we can not let it sit at RT for 5 minutes without worying about it cracking.

I understand that if you have something like an oil hardened die with a complex shape and adjacent thick and thin sections that spontanious cracking could be an issue. However, given the simple shape of a blade using air hardening steel, do you think spontanious cracking is really an issue?

Thanks,

Jim
 
The 400 F I often mention in my posts was an industry standard to get a good stable structure which lower tempering temperatures don't always give. The long axis of the tetragonal martensite gradually shortens as we go higher in temperature and this can be measured by x-ray diffraction. The History Channel program on swords btw , incorrectly shows carbon atoms much larger than iron atoms !!...Kevin , clean those lenses to get the burrito residue off them !
 
Kevin. Love all your posts... please tell me that you are writing a book which will be released in the near future with all your knowledge and insights?

Lang
 
Thank You Kevin. You rock, by using the theater analogy and explaining it in a way that even a cavemen can understand, enlightens me to what is going on after the quench and during tempering. But there is a downfall to all of this knowledge.:( Now every piece of steel I pick up I will be seeing a packed theater instead and wondering where the carbon atoms are sitting!:D
 
This is the only operation that should be called tempering, I am an advocate of public flogging for anybody who calls hardening “tempering”:grumpy:.


Thank you.

I'll hold 'em, you flog 'em.
Thanks, Kevin.
Will this sort of discussion be part of your Ashokan dissertation?
 
I find it somewhat strange that we have no problems with letting fresh martensite sit at zub-zero for hours but hear that we can not let it sit at RT for 5 minutes without worying about it cracking.

Would someone mind picking up on this question?



Also much of this information seems to focus on the old rusty steels used by the master bashers.
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For those of us who use alloyed air hardening steels, it would be nice to know is Mf is at hand warm or at -109 degrees - if tempering should begin when steel reaches cryo temperature or after a good soak at cryo - and whether popcorn should be buttered when used in conjunction with CPM alloys?


Thanks for all the guidance. My head hurts, but I can take it.

Rob!
 
great! If Dan Gray is around this would make a great addition to "For the newbie maker starting out as well as the seasoned maker II"
 
"explicitly state" Please understand that published info on HT is a guide not an absolute. Complex alloys will have retained austenite and you can't remove it all just minimize it...As for going right to cryo - if you're the nervous type do a snap temper of 300 F first ! It depends on whether or not you want your bridge to fall down !
 
Rob: Once the steel is cooled to "cryo" temp and soaked, whatever retained austenite was present has transformed to Martensite-Not 100%, but to whatever degree is possible for that steel at the cryo temperature used.

While Martensite IS brittle, most of the "hurry up and temper" approach is geared towards eliminating retained Austenite, which becomes more difficult to convert to Martensite over time. So, you either want to:
A) Get it cold via cryo, as mete says, directly after quench, and convert as much as possible to Martensite.
B) Snap temper, then get it cold via cryo.
C) Temper directly after quench, and live with a higher percentage of retained Austenite.

All 3 methods are viable, and will produce different finished products with microstructures that may work better or worse for your application.

If you avoid dropping your quenched blade on the shop floor, and avoid hardness testing until after the first temper, you should not have cracking problems-I have never had a quenched blade shatter while waiting for cryo or temper.

RJ Martin
 
Thanks RJ

That sounds way more simple than it should. :o

If I'm reading all this correctly, 'brittle' and 'stressed' don't necessarily co-exist. I want to give maximum benefit from all aspects of heat treament. Of course, any customer who wants it done 'his way' will get exactly what he asks for but most just say heat treat it with cryo and temper to "around 60".

What they really like is how clean their knife comes back, but I want to be sure there is best quality below the gleam too.

Rob!
 
In the 375F to 400F range the initial drops in overall hardness will be seen. I rarely need to investigate a persons methods much more when I hear them say that they temper at 375F or less on a steel with .6% or more carbon, it is obvious that they didn’t fully harden it to begin with.
Kevin
This mean using a simple steel 1070/1080/1084/1095 The first temper needs to be at least 400F then adjust the subsequent tempers lower if a different Rc is desired ? Since the conversion time is much slower at these temps what do you recommend for tempering times??
Thank You
 
Tommegow
The other way around. Temper at 375F first if you are not sure, and then again at higher temps to attain the target Rc.

Kevin
Yesterday (about 90 minutes before your post) I saw the same confusion and misinformation about tempering that you did. My post was here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490613
What is interesting is that we both addressed it in the same progression and with the same basic information and conclusions.
As always your info was more detailed and technical. Your use of graphics was excellent. A picture is worth a thousand words, especially when the reader isn't sure what the words mean. I ,for one, really appreciate your posts and edification efforts.
Thanks - Stacy
 
Tommegow, the highest temperature in tempering determines the final hardness. For those simple steels one temper should be enough.For the more complex steels two or even three would be better. For blades 2 hours each temper.
 
Kevin,

...I find it somewhat strange that we have no problems with letting fresh martensite sit at zub-zero for hours but hear that we can not let it sit at RT for 5 minutes without worying about it cracking.

I understand that if you have something like an oil hardened die with a complex shape and adjacent thick and thin sections that spontanious cracking could be an issue. However, given the simple shape of a blade using air hardening steel, do you think spontanious cracking is really an issue?

Thanks,

Jim

I tend to agree, in that we work with incredibly simple cross sections compared to the rest of industry, and often get a little too paranoid about the issue. However I also too often see folks who simply do not take tempering seriously enough, probably due to the insufficient intial hardness most smiths obtain in their blades. Running code red to the oven like the white rabbit who is late while the blade is still smoking from the oil is not practical, but waiting overnight and getting too relaxed will flirt with disaster. It is just common sense and being reasonable, quench to Mf and then get it tempered, don't blow it off, but there is no reason to panick either.

It is kind of amazing how folks will almost have a stroke obsessing over micro-issues that could develop in the seconds after the quench, yet have no problem with heating unknown scrap steel with a torch to who knows what temperature before plopping it into a bucket of lard and old 10W40:rolleyes: How do we determine what to fret over:confused:?
 
Lot of info here, and that's good.
maybe I can get some help on zeroing in on my steel of choice, for now,5160.
Kevin states "In the 375F to 400F range the initial drops in overall hardness will be seen. I rarely need to investigate a persons methods much more when I hear them say that they temper at 375F or less on a steel with .6% or more carbon, it is obvious that they didn’t fully harden it to begin with. "
Well, that puts 5160 right at the bottom of that scenario.
Can I assume that lower than 400 degree tempering is acceptable when using 5160 because the degree of hardness "as quenched" is lower due to the lower amount of carbon?
I've tempered 5160 in the 400-425 range and ended up with a glorified spring that wold not sharpen and tested on a hardness tester up on the spine and only found 48 HRC!
At the same time, I often see 350-375 for tempering temps suggested for 5160.
Is this because of the lower C.?
Or is 400 recommended for ALL non-stainless steels and I have other issues?
 
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