Test Busse BM V Talonite Custom 9"

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General,

Lovely qualifications, but I see nothing there that tells us you know anything about knives...

Americans get aggressive in response to pomposity. We abhor it. I'm getting the feeling this is more about your ego than any knife test. How do ya like them aggressive apples?

(Sorry Jerry and Andy).

~Brian.
 
First, my apologies to knifemakers everywhere. My original point was that making and using a good knife was a very complicated and sophisticated undertaking. I challenged Wayne Adamson (The General) to design and build a knife that would work well. I would pay for it and he would post as he went describing the process. He has not designed a knife. What is even worse is that he has perverted my offer and is using it to bludgeon other knife makers. This is totally unfair and a disservice to other knifemakers, knife users and to the knife community as a whole.

2. We recognize two valid ways to test knives and knife alloys.

A. Using scientific tests administered as designed by trained personnel on proper equipment. The misuse of scientific terms on these forums is incredible. RC is not Rc. Lateral stress is not the same as lateral strain and neither term should be used to cover something best described by Poisson's ratio.

B. The most important testing method is described by the question "Does the knife user like the knife?" Certainly the most egregious insult to the forum and its members is out of hand dismissal of other opinions and the insultingly pseudoscientific replies. There are a huge number of excellent knife materials and excellent knifemakers.

As a very wise man, Walt Welch, once told me "Tom, try to quit stepping on your own wang quite so much." Now Rob Simonich and Will Fennel have finally got across to me what that means.

We are certainly willing to cooperate with scientific testing and development however, from this point forward, we will be much more selective as to what we do. We will not become involved in any programs that unfairly treats our competition, forum members or the knife community in general.

Tom Walz
 
Tom, I must have missed something here.

1. I am in fact designing a knife, given specs for size and thickness and a conceptual drawing. Until the knife is done, I suppose it has not been competed, but I have designed a shape and form. You make it sound like I have done nothing at all.

2. "What is even worse is that he has perverted my offer and is using it to bludgeon other knife makers. This is totally unfair and a disservice to other knife makers, knife users and to the knife community as a whole. "

What? Eh? In what way??? I am involving other companies, by asking if they wish to submit a 'loan' knife or test knife. I made it very very clear I did not expect to own any knife lent. Here is a sample of two e-mails sent. One to Anne Reeve and one to Fallkniven.

"I am going to be testing a Talonite 'trail knife' designed by me (9" blade) against a number of other blades. This will be posted on the group. Steve Rollert is making it and Tom Walz paying and providing the Talonite.

I am interested whether any Fallkniven knife will perform next to such a knife. The model A1 does seem the best for size and thus a fairish test, although any knife you chose to provide will help me greatly. I do not expect to own the knife after testing it, but would you be prepared to loan me one for testing? The results will be shown on Bladeforums and pictures as well. This is all part of a 'real' world test on camping and trail knives. I do not now or ever intend to abuse or damage any knife. I am a responsible person. I thought I would offer you the chance to take part in this and give you the opportunity to show potential customers how well your knives perform, even next to a custom knife. I think my review will be fair, honest and un biased. I live in the UK and am sitting English at Bangor Uni, North Wales. Thank you for your time.

Wayne Adamson"

And:

"I am going to be testing a Talonite 'trail knife' designed by me (9" blade) against a number of other blades. This will be posted on the group. Steve Rollert is making it and Tom Walz paying and providing the Talonite.

I am interested whether a Project 1 with a spear-point blade will perform next to such a knife. The custom knife will also have a spearpoint blade. I do not expect to own the knife after testing it, but would you be prepared to loan me one for testing? The results will be shown on Bladeforums and pictures as well. This is all part of a 'real' world test on camping and trail knives. I do not now or ever intend to abuse or damage any knife. I am a responsible person. I thought I would offer you the chance to take part in this and give you the opportunity to show potential customers how well your knives perform, even next to a custom knife. I think my review will be fair, honest and un biased. I live in the UK and am sitting English at Bangor Uni, North Wales. Thank you for your time.

Wayne Adamson"


Call me stupid; call me a bully but how is this bludgeoning the knife industry Tom? Please tell me. You comments seem to me very unfair and hurtful. You said to me:

"I like the idea of head to head with another knife but my original goal was
to get you a knife made out of Talonite that you really liked. We never
thought we had the "best knife alloy". We just knew we had a really good
knife alloy. (Besides this morning financial mentioned the number of knives
I have been buying lately.)"

If you had said you did not like the idea of testing other blades as well, I would have respected that. I have perverted nothing; many here asked me to review other blades as well. The Talonite knife would of course have more. Much more written about it as it is the crux of the 'test'. I have done everything asked of me, a little slow, but always what you asked of me. I never criticised or insulted in a serious way and my willingness to show the group my qualifications was a horrible mistake on my part. In the UK it is considered the norm to show you can comprehend what you are doing. That one mention (and only once) of my experience and acquirements has obviously insulted many of you. I intended no insult, honestly I did not. I apologise for any insult taken or impression of arrogance on my part. God, if only I could take those words back. We are two cultures with a language only in common. Please don’t judge me by your expectations

Heck, I just thought I would make the review a little more interesting for the group, a little fairer and more able to show the strengths and weaknesses of a knife review. The people on this thread got me thinking about asking to test a 'group' of knives. I did not demand any knife; I respectfully asked to use a knife for the test. I made it clear I did not expect to own anything after the test was done. Indeed I will return any knife sent to me, unless the company specifically tells me not to bother. My assumption is that the knife will be returned without delay by me unless I am specifically told to keep it… (sigh
frown.gif
what more can I say on this? )

I have considered 99% of my posts and dealings very respectful. Honest and decent. I cannot see how I am at fault here. I was mistaken in posting my qualifications due to hard academic work. Nothing I have gained in academic study is due to luck, but rather hard work and diligence. I was lucky Tom gave me the chance to get a free knife. Somewhere the communication just broke down. I could understand the anger that you must feel Tom if I had turned this into a free ride to get more knives. I never ever had any intention in asking any company to give me a knife, God no! I am not a thief or a man who would do such a thing. I was keen to point out that Talonite will in my expectation do what I want it to do; I defended it against those who thought otherwise. I did not consider light chopping to be likely to damage a knife. Anyway, I did indeed think that Talonite`s suggested strengths would far out weigh any weakness in this area if it did not perform. Indeed a review sent by Tom suggested Talonite makes a fantastic trail knife, very tough and dependable. I just wanted to see what was what. The other knives would make it more interesting for me, those not really interested in a one knife test and make the whole thing more…valid? Again call me stupid for stepping wrongly here.

Brian, thank you for your comments. I can see where you are coming from. This was never about my ego. I am a student with a part time job. Little money and a huge debt as a result of this Labour Governments loan scheme. I do not think I am any better than any of you. I am no doubt much poorer in many ways. All I was trying to do was point out that in a field of experts, makers and brilliant people, I had something to contribute. I tried to tell you why I could be trusted to make it a fair test. I was concerned that some may think me biased or without any qualifications what so ever and thus without any reason to be posting a review. Pomposity was never my intent. Clearly I was wrong and thus I am sorry.

Anthony Lombardo I sincerely apologise for my comments if you took them for an insult. I was mistaken in thinking we were being light hearted and I was wrong, sorry.

Anyone else who finds my comments insulting or unfair, then I apologise as well. I seem to have a problem making my feelings and thoughts understood. I am in no way trying to be sarcastic in any of my comments, lest anyone perceive that is what I am doing now. As one person said “ If you cannot say what you mean, how can you mean what you say”

My dry humour with regards to others attacking me went wrong. If you read it again, I was trying to say that a slanging match over semantics and pedantic arguments was pointless and without any merit. It made me look bad and others. Don`t say I did not try to point out my mistakes.

What is the point? Anything I say from now on will be misconstrued and misunderstood. I have said my peace and will continue to do things as honourably and fairly as possible.

I expect that I have missed something big here, I must have been stupid and insensitive. Tom, I expect you will withdraw your offer now. Do not see this as an attempt to push you to do anything, we are all our own man/women first. Tell me what I have done wrong and I will put it right. I talk to much.

With respect

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-16-2000).]
 
Talonite has a purpose as a blade steel.
Carbon steel has a purpose as a blade steel.
Stainless has a purpose as a blade steel.
ect.

The problem is (as always) this point is missed (on purpose).

There are NO blade steels that will perform all tasks in the same manner.
If you compare apples to apples with these materials, and design tests around the way the blade material was designed, against each other, the tests would be valid.

There was a discussion a while back about a standard set of tests for each blade steel to
educate the knife buying public about what to expect from each blade material. It would stop all of this vodoo and hype testing if that were to happen. Do something positive for the knife buying public for a change.
Use the blade materials for the purpose they were designed for and WOW they just might do the job required.

Cliff I can see that you remember a statment NOT made by Rob Simonich but by someone else.
You act as if Rob made the statement.


------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Why is this on Jerry's forum?

Anthony, I know that forged knife Cliff is talking about. Steve Schwarzer and I built it. Just to say, I have the only forged 6Bh knife around would mean alot to me. To say I have the only forged 6Bh knife to fail the concrete chopping test would not make me happy.

General, seems you pee'd in the wind this time. Tends to blow back on your shoes.

As Darrel said, each blade material has it's own purpose. 6Bh and 6K rule.

Hi Rob
smile.gif
 
Anthony Lombardo:

[forging Talonite]

Does it make it stronger or weaker? Better or worse?
Click to expand...

Talonite is an age hardened alloy. This basically means that it is left at an elevated temperature until it achives a certain level of strength and hardness and is then cooled to room temperature.

The duration that you leave it heated depends on the alloy and how hot you are running it. Excessive times will lead to over aging and the material starts to become weak. For example for 2014 Al, hardened a 260 degrees, reaches maximum strength in minutes, down to 3/4 in an hour and less than 1/2 in a day.

The importance of this is that during forging the blade is heated and this may lead to overaging. In order to know for sure you would want to know the forging temperature and durations and as well the aging characteristics of Talonite.

If I was to guess, I would say it made it worse. However forging is not simply heating, the material might have gained strength from the working and as well its properties could have been altered as the chemical composition changed, the latter is very complicated and in general not well understood.

Can you compare a forged Talonite(r) blade to a stock-removal blade?
Click to expand...

I have used both and have multiple times seen both outperformed on light to medium work (cardboard, rope, wood etc.) by Stellite 6k. I would assume that strength is the critical factor here and 6K is simply resisting rolling longer.

It is fairly easy to show the low strength by a simple tip bend test which I have done on my Talonite knife, but have not done on the forged one as it isn't mine and there is always the chance that it might break the tip.

On the positive, they both tend to outperform dendritic Cobalt on long term use as it breaks apart readily even on low stress cutting like cardboard. You can actually see the edge fall apart and feel it with your finger.

I am pretty sure that the forged blade will have an advantage over the 6k one when the material gets "grittier" as strength will not be as critical here in edge retention but ductility and impact toughness are and I would think that the advantage would probably swing the other way. One of the things I have left to do.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Originally posted by The General:

Any suggestions on how to get those knives, without looking like some low life after a free knife?
Click to expand...

General, meet Cliff.


[This message has been edited by samwereb (edited 11-17-2000).]
 


What Kit said
wink.gif



------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Reading all this, just makes me ill. I want to talk about and read Busse knives. Not read about this. Take this disscussion some where else. Seems to be alot of personal issues here that just does not belong.



------------------
"KEEP IT SIMPLE"

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
 
THIS IS NOW OVER DON`T BOTHER WITH ANY MORE INSULTS.
OH YES LEAVE CLIFF OUT OF THIS, HE AT LEAST HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPECTFUL AND HONEST IN HIS DEALINGS WITH ME. I RESPECT HIS VIEWS. I RESPECT ANY VIEW, UNTIL IT GETS PERSONAL. even then I consider the merits. Oh and I am Welsh NOT ENGLISH, find a map.

Try to do the same, please?

“ Everyone hears what you say. Friends listen to
what you say. Best friends listen to what you
don't say.”
“
If you judge people, you have no time to love them”
~Mother Teresa

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle.”
- Plato
Thanks for those words Nemo.

“on doit se regarder soi-meme, un fort long temps,Avant que de songer a condammer les gens”.

“One should look long and carefully at oneself before one considers judging others.”
Le Misanthrope.

“Pray enter you are learned Europeans and we worse than ignorant Americans.”
The City Madam (1658, act 3, sc.3)

“There is no other way for securing yourself against flatteries except that men understand that they do not offend you by telling you the truth; but when everyone can tell you the truth, you fail to get respect”.

Il Principle (1513)

“The greater man, the greater courtesy.”
Tennyson, Idylls of the king ‘The Last Tournament’

It still amazes me how right Tennyson still is. Where did he come from??? Great Britain. My words have failed, perhaps others words will do a better job than mine. Do not expect me to respond to this with lies, insults or aggression. I have no intention in lowering myself to that level (and yes my pride is now up and damn angry, but respect even for those who ought to know better stops me). I have been open, honest and fair in all my dealings. Nothing was concealed or covered up or anything. The most anyone can say is I was egotistical. I accept that may have appeared the case, though It was never my intent you have my word on this. I will not apologise again, enough is enough.

“It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them”

A good quote to end this I think.

Still and always respectfully

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
It is a rare privilege indeed, to be able to make a living in a profession that stirs such passion.

Lives without knives would certainly be much duller.

Yours in nuclear friendship,

Jerry Busse



[This message has been edited by Jerry Busse (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Don't have my Talonit blade yet for experiments, yet one thing is very clear.
Cobalt in any alloy gives certain people an excuse & a reason to insult other folks(unbelievers that is), use rude language, etc. Besides apparently there's no limit to it
frown.gif
It just goes & goes & goes.
IMHO this is no discussion and if it goes on it will get much worse, seen that before in talonite related threads already, so either we stop this here, or say some Talonite prayer, or else it's gonna get overheated soon...

------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
 
general:
For those interested, I have A-levels in Psychology, Law, Politics, General Studies and English. I am also a final year reading English at Bangor Uni. I am aware of control
methods thanks to Psychology and know how to perform a fair test. I will be involving family and friends in the testing for impartiality from non knife nuts. They have no concept of price or any expectations. They will be the control factor. With my Politics
qualification I know what an agenda is. I might note that I have an independently tested I.Q. of 172 and got the highest results in North Wales. I was in the paper and made the national and local news. Still enough of that, we are all equals here. Friends to the last!
Click to expand...

no we aint interested! is that iq 17.2? if you so damn smart go cure cancer! instead of begging for free knives to test! why is it all you testers want everything for free???

all those qualifications and you test knives? lmao
biggrin.gif
puuuuleeeeeeze

[This message has been edited by HermanKnives (edited 11-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jerry Busse (edited 11-18-2000).]
 
Hermanknives,

Lucky us you are a BFC Moderator !

Make me think about another one... ah Yes! Mad Dog (R.I.P.) on the Knife Forums...
Finally boycotted by any human being with a little heart and brain...

Same "kindness" ! Same way to insult people far away.
frown.gif

SUCH A SHAME to read how a "moderator" can put oil on fire instead to cool down that flame.
frown.gif

What is next ? Deleting messages ?

Tsssss...
frown.gif


PS I really enjoy the National lampoon link ! Great !!
smile.gif
 
Good words Jerry, sorry to start this here.

I DID NOT ASK TO KEEP ANY KNIVES FOR GODS SAKE! Do not apply your expectations to me. I just wanted to make this more interesting as a review. Don`t be so judgemental and cynical, grow up. This makes me sick to my belly how no one can read and understand what is in front of you. I have been up front and straightforward. Tell me where I have lied or cheated and I will respond. I will not post again about my...'boasting' that is how you see it? Never again.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
General I thought you were leaving! In our culture Blade testing is reserved for the knowledgeable, experienced, and respected. You have proven to be none of the above!

Please go away! If I was you I would return the CR knife with a written appology! Nice scam, but it is not going to work here! I cant believe CR fell for your "games"!! I'm going to have to call CR and see how can this have happened!?

This is the Busse forum where we feel lucky to be able to BUY Jerry's blades, I have spent thousands of dollars on blades and your mere presence here is insulting......

The General is not testing knives, but knife companies. He is trying to see how much he can get away with. These are tight circles and outsiders are viewed with scepticism. Especially outsiders, like the General, with ill intent

Bill(I pay for my knives)Maniotes

Bye Bye General

------------------
It is all Greek to me
 
Well done...

For your infomation, I have sent such an e-mail. Not worded as you think, but an apolagy for different reasons. I will not post on this topic again.

When the sharks smell blood...

My all paid for knife list

1. Puma Protech folder, 3 inch folder 231385 H/S.
2. Gerber EZ Out, 440a steel H/S.
3. Gerber EZ Out, ATS-34 H/S.
4. Gerber EZ Out, ATS-34 P/E.
5. Gerber Gator, ATS-34 H/S 1st prod run.
6. Gerber LST 440a (dad using) P/E.
7. Gerber EZ Out Junior 440a, H/S. (dad using)
8. Gerber Large Chameleon, 440a, H/S, 1st prod run.
9. Opinel no 7, P/E 1075 steel.
10. Opinel no 14 P/E 1075 steel
11. Bocker tree brand steel handled ‘pen’ knife, 440a?
12. Buck, Bucklite 425 steel? P/E
13. 1951 Army issue knife.
14. CRKT Kiss Tanto folder H/S
15. “ “ Carson M16 02Z, AUS6M, P/E
16. “ “ “ M16- 14, AUS8a, H/S
17. “ “ “ M16-13, AUS-8a, H/S
18. “ “ Seahawk, ATS-34 F/S
19. KABAR, Extreme D2 clip point, H/S
20. Benchmade, 855-01, P/E ATS-34
21. “ “, 710 Axis lock, M2 P/E, Pre prod run no 247-400
22. “ “, 800 AFCK, M2, H/S
23. Browning 708, AUS8a, H/S
24. Spyderco, C16S Wayne Goddard, F/S, Gin1
25. “ “ Endura, ATS-55, F/S
26. “ “ Q Series (American Flag)440c, F/S
27. “ “ Naitive 2, AUS10a, H/S
28. “ “ Dragonfly, AUS8a, F/S (mum using)
29. “ “ Military, CPM 440V, P/E
30. Cold Steel, Vaquero Grande, AUS8a, F/S 6inch mega folder!
31. Smith and Wesson SWAT Tanto H/S, 440a

MULTITOOLS

1. Victorinox, Swiss Tool
2. Victorinox, Ranger
3. Victorinox, lock folder/tool 4” model?
4. Gerber 600 Scout, With Hex adaptor.
5. Leatherman Super Tool
6. Leatherman Wave
7. Leatherman Micra
8. Gerber Multilite.
9. 2x Swiss army copies*



FIXEDBLADES
1. Phrobris III (Mil spec Buck) M-9 Bayonet, 425 steel. P/E
2. KABAR, Marine knife, 1095 P/E
3. Ontario, Marine knife, 1095 P/E
4. KABAR, Tanto, 1095 P/S
5. KABAR D2 'Next Gen' fighting knife, P/S
6. Lainheart Seal ATS-34 P/E
7. Cheap 440a copy of 9” Cold steel Magnum tanto P/E
8. Mueler 7” Bowie 440a? P/E
9. Mueler 9” Bowie 440a? P/E
10. Mueler 6.25” Nato knife (Alice) 420J2? Yuck!* P/E
11. 1908 WW2 Brit Army Bayonet (love this!) P/E
12. 18” 440a Wakizashi (its ok!) P/E
13. Benchmade, Nimravius, M2 P/E
14. Gerber, Sport Axe.
15. Norwegian Axe.
16. Gerber Mk2 copy 420J2* P/S
17. Belt knife 2x (don`t ask they suck)*
18. Spyderco, Bill Moran VG10 P/E


Oh I am showing off again, damn damn damn
mad.gif



People like you are the insult. I do buy my knives, I was going to buy a Talonite knife in the first place, and a folder in said material if the 'test' blade was ok. I do spend money, a lot of money. Your ill judged comments are typical of what I have seen.

Bye bye.
rolleyes.gif


TOPIC CLOSED.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-18-2000).]
 
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