Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

yeah what bamboo said. how do you cut/grind the edges so that there is no gaps? and do you use some sort of a hidden pin to help add the strength?
 
So, tmanifold: when I finished gunstocks the wood was kiln-dryed and unstabilized. My sword handles and guards were unstabilized. With your knife handles, you should use stabilized woods. And, if you want to use this finishing technique, it's really only necessary if there are large open grains/pores like with stabilized Koa, Walnut, etc... Even stabilized Maple has pretty big pores that should be filled. Oily woods like Blackwood, Ebony, cocobolo, etc... you can pretty much just sand down and wax with #0000 steel wool.

Regarding, the way my wood handles go together, I did write an article for Blade magazine on this that has pictures, etc... I forget what year... 2009 or something... before my M.S. test. Anyway, regardless of the shape you are fitting, you need to make a very precise sanding jig for it. Pretty simple really: the male portion needs to be perfectly sanded and the female portion needs to be perfectly sanded. When they fit together there should be no gaps and I use Gorilla glue and clamp tightly.

So, your next question is, well, how exactly do you get the male portion sanded PERFECTLY to fit withing the female portion? I'll give you a clue. You can build up your jigs very easily with blue painters tape and, in addition, you can adjust the grit of your sandpaper. Maybe one jig for the female part works best with some self-adhesive 80 grit, but the male jig works best with some self-adhesive 220 - you'll figure it out - you see, different grits of sandpaper are different thicknesses. Keep the paper sharp.
 
Ok, guys & gals, what problems are you having? My handles are dumb - I solved a problem for myself, but you need to do better than I did.

How do you pass your J.S. or M.S. tests with confidence? And if you are just simply wanting to improve your game without going that route, how are you going to challenge yourself to step up to the next level? Tell me what you have decided, what you are going to do. How are you going to do that? What specific hurdles can I help kick you over?
 
Ok Michael, this will fall under "wanting to improve my game without going that (ABS) route."
Could you talk a little bit about heat treating and etching damascus on integral knives, for an even high contrast finish?
And, could you talk a little bit about achieving food release with chef knives? Edge convexity effectiveness? I've not found a way in which to grind a blade that seems to me like it releases food in a truly effective way.
 
I don't know if those with lots of expertise and experience understand how much help they give to others by explaining the simple mundane things they do everyday. :thumbup: to Michael, Nick and the many others. Thanks!
 
You're welcome sykes. I had help too.

Alright, Salem. There have been tons of advice here on heat-treating and etching damascus. All, I'd like to say on this is that I like a deeper etch. Is your acid fairly new? (I think two years old is about the limit.) Is your acid warm? Figure out a way to get it in the 80-90 deg range. I like three cycles of 15 min each. I rinse with water and wet-sand with 1200 grit paper inbetween. Finally, rinse with water and soak in ammonia for a few minutes.

So, there are some options after the etch: a) drag out the finish with 2000 paper and WD-40 and call it done b) sandblast out the oxide (or whatever it is - the black stuff) and cold-blue or Parkerize. Drag out the finish again with 2000 paper. or c) consider no black at all. Some guys like a buffed damascus blade. Not as striking, but especially in a kitchen knife it is probably best.

In itself, a deep etch will aid in food release a bit. You can test this. I don't have a fancy trick for perfect convex bevels, and in fact, I still am working on my system and techniques, so let's get better at this together. I flat grind my blades until I like my spine thickness and taper towards the edge leaving it around .040" or .050", I don't know. Then I just start rocking the blade towards the edge from about half-way up the blade. I work slowly and evenly with a course belt until I like it. I check the curvature with a business card on edge so that I can see the edge pull away from the flat. Then I put on a thick leather platen and finish the blade.

But, you don't really need the nuts and bolts here - it all comes down to testing, right? So, potatoes are the worst, right? Have a bag of those suckers in the shop and just cut some as you go. It doesn't really need to be sharp to do this. When you see what is happening with the food, then you can make some adjustments. Play with chisel-style bevels in the Japanese style too. Try a large hollow grind "fuller" in the body of the blade. And don't be afraid to talk with your customers too because their needs will vary. A great potato chopper isn't necessarily the best blade for slicing a turkey. Just gotta play with it.
 
Michael, there's always been something I've struggled with for kitchen knives. I am buggered on how to 'indicate' the edge for grinding (ie. scribing/referencing it). If I had a completely flat, surface ground blade it would be pretty straight forward, but I have tapers on the blade and tang (and most of the time theyre not that flat to begin with). I imagine for integrals it's gotta be trickier.
 
The specific thing I am working out is how best to heat treat and etch an integral with a full tang, and get an even finish from tip to butt, i.e. everything heat treated.
What I really need (I'm sure you would tell me this) is to get an EZ bake for this kind of stuff. I've run up against similar advice from masters before, yes it's tough but one can't really be told how to do some things, they just come with practice.
Thank you very much for your responses, my approach to convexity has been about the same as yours but I think perhaps I do need to build a soft platen; that will make things easier!
 
Hi Don. Integrals are easier (for me) than flat blades because I base everything off of the finished blade itself. On "regular" knives everything is based on the ricasso, so centerlines are necessary there. One way is to build a little jig with two little pins and a third exactly in the center. You "pinch" the blade with a twist and run the scribe (center pin) down the length of your blade (anyone have a pic of this thing? I don't own one.) Or better, clamp the (finished, square, parallel) ricasso region to a flat-plate and run a scribe over both tang and blade edges (I use an old file bit with sharpened corner) to find your center. Either way works.

Salem. I'm not sure how you are heat-treating now, but the solution would be to build a special handle that bolted to the center of your tang so as not to add too much of a heat-sink like tongs would do. Then you can heat and quench the entire knife. Temper as normal in your oven or LT salts, etc... And, yeah, a softer platen makes finishing fun. Grab some yellow 400 grit Klingspor J-flexes and go to town. Does that help?

No problem, bamboo. Have any special handle-thing you are working the bugs out of?
 
Thanks for pointing that out, ask the people who do the testing :)
I really enjoy seeing the test sets, there just seemed to be a lot of variation, so I want to be clear on what matters and what doesn't for practice.
Sure appreciate all the good info in this thread!
Andy
 
You're welcome. Also, I have to give a shout-out to these guys: I learned a tremendous amount about actual cutting dymanics from Ed Schempp, Jose' Diaz and Dan Keffler - you know, the guy who won the Blade Sports championship last year. The Three Eds have helped me a bunch (Fowler, Caffrey, Schempp) So has Tom Ferry, John Davis, and David Lisch. And Chuck from Alpha Knife Supply really does more than just sell stuff that you can slap on your knife.

And, every chance you get, be sure to thank the guys here like Nick Wheeler, Nathan and the many others that are constantly sharing what they do. Stacy is constantly giving advice and keepin' it real. Shop Talk is a really good resource here. Thanks for keeping it friendly and positive.

What else is tripping you up? Be specific. Keep it coming.
 
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For the performance test I am curious about the edge geometry and sharpening, and then for the J.S. judging what kind of blade finish for a satin blade do you suggest?

I understand that heat treat is part of passing the performance test but how thin do you want the edge? What grit do you want to take your edges to?

-Brian-
 
Hi Brian. For the J.S. performance test, the blade finish doesn't really matter. I'd have the scratches running parallel to the edge at maybe a 400 to 600 grit finish. No one is going to care. According to the test rules, you need to be able to chop two 2X4's, cut a 1" piece of free-hanging rope and still have the edge shave hair off of your arm. So, in order for you to do that I need you to make a 10" knife with 5" handle. Heat-treat it. Grind it. Slap on a handle. Sharpen it and cut some wood and some rope and shave with it. I'm not trying to be a dork about it, but if I laid out every single thing for you, you really wouldn't learn anything. I mentioned three guys above: Dan Keffler, Jose' Diaz and Ed Schempp can you possible guess how many 2"X4s" these guys have chopped over the years as competitive cutters for Blade Sports? I know that my house probably has less than what Dan has cut.

So, you obviously know how to make knives. Just do it. Then give that knife to your brother and make another one. Then when you got it down, put the tip in a vise and bend it 90 degrees. If you are student of Ed Fowler's then bend it back and forth 180 degrees the other way about 10 times and you'll know something about what is going on in your blade.

See, the thing is that your questions isn't really specific in the way I'm looking for: you didn't tell me what steel you are using, or what you have already done. I can't tell you how thin to make the edge or spine because I don't have enough information. And, I don't really want it. You need to know your steel. You need to know what your edge can take. Then if you say, well, my blade won't shave after the 2X4 and rope cut, and I'm doing this and that, well, then I might be able to help you. Make your knives and use them. Cut lots. Pay attention to the results.
 
I've hesitated jumping in here I hope you don't mind Michael. Though I have not experienced the MS side of things fully yet I can add a little light that has not been discussed. Some might think Michael is being crass by saying make a knife then do another and on and on. The only way to get to know the performance of YOUR knife, Steel and Design is to make it. If it works and you are happy do it again to see if you can repeat it. IIRC I made 6-8 knives specifically for my JS testing. Tested all of them to destruction and knew for certain all of them would have passed. Then when I went for it I made a batch of 3. Did all the same process from beginning to end. Tested 2 to destruction and the third up until the bend. I knew it would pass the first 2 requirements and should pass the bend as the first 2 did. The cut and bend part of the test cannot be a guided evolution. You are either sure of your product or not. It is a simple pass fail. This is part of what the test is about.

The fit and finish part is a bit different. It is a subjective decision by a panel of at least 6 judges. All of them accomplished MS's. I will tell you what at least 5 MS's have told me (really more than I can remember). You can approach the fit and finish 2 ways;

1. To pass. Do clean simple work. Make sure it flows and that flow is not interrupted, ie top of handle and spine of blade line up without too excessive a jump up and no drop down. Don't try to impress the judges unless you can nail it perfectly. More than likely the judges have already done it and probably much better. Get your finishes down pat. A good hand rubbed finish will do a lot to put you over the top.

2. Make knives you want to win the Peck or Hughes award. Put in the time. Make your knives clean but have special touches you have taken the time to insure are as perfect as you can ever make them. This may require tearing a knife down and re-handling it several times. This way is taking a big risk. Like I mentioned in the first section, the judges have probably done it and most likely better. If you cannot pull it off perfectly don't try. I am not saying not to push yourself, just make sure you are capable of the task you are doing.

Some things not to do,

-try to cover up mistakes. They will be spotted and you will fail.
-Present non heat treated knives.
-Present un-sharpened knives.
-fail to read the most current requirements for the level you are going for. Minor changes are made from time to time. Know what is expected.

This is not by any means a comprehensive way to take the JS and MS tests. Both have their unique challenges. I have my barriers I am attempting to overcome to complete my MS. I will do it but it is for me not for any other reason. Do your homework. It can be done, and is every year.
 
Thanks Chuck. Perfect and much appreciated.
Now, on to...

Lesson #1: "RESISTANCE WILL BURY YOU."

So, I have the Seattle International Knife Show in less than two weeks and Blade a month after that. So, what do I do? I start a thread answering every question that comes in and I've been checking it more than 10 times a day. What does this tell you? I'm stalling and don't want to really focus on my knives. I'm resisting.

Homework assignment: Buy a book by Steven Pressfield called The War of Art. The first half is amazing and I try to re-read it every six months or so. "Resistance" is simply the little devil inside of all of us that doesn't really want us doing our life's work. It comes up all the time and in all ways. Steven is coming at it from a writers perspective, but art/writing/knifemaking is work all the same and he reminds us that,"resistance will bury you."

Dave Ramsey also has this concept about getting out of debt called, "gazelle-like intensity." The lion is chasing you and in order to wear it down and survive, you have to have to run hard and fast and never quit: like a gazelle. So, the lion is chasing me this very moment and here I am.

So, to you and, more importantly, myself: make your knives. The lion is chasing and if you slow down it will bury you.
 
Yea I know. Did the OKCA show and sold 3 knives I really wanted to take to Seattle. Now I have to make more. Could have a worse problem.

I would tell you to get your nose to the grindstone but that could be dangerous for a knifemaker:eek:

Take care and see you in Seattle.
 
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