Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

Thanks guys. Adam makes beautiful knives. I'm always bummed at blade show when he's all sold out before the show starts and you don't even get to see what he brought.
 
Michael Rader said:
Okay, Lesson #2 Be specific.

I'm thinking about the upcoming knifeshows that I'm going to and kinda dreading answering all the same questions over and over. I really do get worn down during these things. Now, questions from excited collectors with hand-fulls of cash are great and I love them. However, questions from other knifemakers are not so good. The worst one is when they pull out a knife from under their coat with electrical tape still covering the handle and ask, "what do you think of this?" I can't really be honest or I'll get shived - you know?

So, here's the thing - I know what you want - you want me to say that your knife is awesome. However, that wouldn't be the truth. Knives are composed of many different facets like a diamond and each has it's own features and problems. You know what the problems are with your knives and somehow you want my general positive opinion. Regardless of who you are or who you show it to, nothing is getting done with that approach. Even your ego knows there really isn't anything happening.

Here is the key for asking questions with your favorite maker at a show or even here at Shop-Talk - BE SPECIFIC. If you are an ABS apprentice going for J.S. or a J.S. going for M.S. - be specific. What you really need (not want) when you show someone your knife for a critique is an honest judgement of a particular facet of your knife so that you can either fix it or improve upon it. (Fact - there are no perfect knives! Give me the most perfect knife you can find and I can find at least 20 people that can find a flaw in some aspect of it.)

Homework: when you ask a question or show a knife to someone you respect, ask them to look at some-thing, some part, answer a question on one of the facets. If you already know your blade is straight and your grinds are symmetrical, but are unsure about the guard-gap/fit-up, then ask about that. You will get an honest answer and probably some suggestions on how to fix it next time.

The moral is, if, at the next show, you whip out a knife-like object from a brown-paper bag and ask someone like Dave Lisch, "how do you like my knife?" he just might flick a bugger at you. You've been warned. Just sayin'...
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I agree with you 100% here. I won't waste anyone's time on my work, as its not at the level where I need the advice yet. I still have so much improving to do in the basic skills that I don't need to waste anyone's time to tell me I need to do better plunges, get EVERY scratch out, and make a new guard if I make a mistake and have a gap.

Interestingly, I was just fired for agreeing with you two days ago. For the first time in my 21 year career as a family therapist, I was fired. I was working on a new team, and they asked me to help them figure out why they were failing at training a certain group of therapists. I looked through what they were doing, and what the response was, and compiled a list of suggestions for the team. I have successfully provided this training to new therapists for about 13 years now, and have a pretty good sense of how to pull it off. The teams response was that I thought I knew more than them (which is true) and they didn't like that, so they told me to never use the techniques that were successful in the past again. I asked for a meeting to discuss this, and was prepared to resign, but they fired me instead. Its bizarre.
 
Hi Larry. I hope you are well. See you at Blade?

Willie71 said:
Interestingly, I was just fired for agreeing with you two days ago.
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Ha ha. I feel like Rush Limbaugh now.
Good story Willie. As Jack Nicholson said best, "Do you want the truth? ...You can't handle the truth."
 
Michael Rader said:
Hi Larry. I hope you are well. See you at Blade?


Ha ha. I feel like Rush Limbaugh now.
Good story Willie. As Jack Nicholson said best, "Do you want the truth? ...You can't handle the truth."
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OMG!! I HAVE to use that line in my exit interview.
 
Yep....be at Blade, but new booth # and location. They consolidated the central booths into new spot this year. Tables remain same for the most part. Be sure and stop by.
 
Yeah. It's always tough because you have to balance what someone is asking for with what they actually want. Kinda relates to being married...

Anyway, on to...

Lesson #3: Get yourself a negative mentor.

Yes, that's right. Many of us have positive role-models and teachers that give us things to improve upon, but you'll find some of your best teachers can actually be found in people and things you don't like; things that repel you. You know this is true already when you see an ugly knife or a loser walking down the street, but I want you to grasp this as a real tool. Have you read any of the the old Carlos Casteneda books? (Don't do it now unless you are on serious drugs...) His mentor, Don Juan, always used to stress the importance of "petty tyrants" in helping with progress.

Some of you noted earlier that you appreciated the ABS or Guild requirements forced you to rise to a higher level. Well, what if you don't want to be part of those organizations? In the case of Carlos Casteneda, Don Juan actually had to create a false attack on himself to get Carlos to take his training seriously. Side note: [Someone really has to photoshop me a pic of a saber-tooth tiger with a bullwhip with a frikkin' laser on his shoulder - for God's sake - you must do this!!!!] Anyway, money is a good motivator and so are customers, but for me, I've been involved with some guys that were really bad at business (in both martial arts and knifemaking) and they serve me every day - even more so than the good mentors I've had. So, for you to really benefit here, whenever you see someone or something that isn't working well or doesn't seem right to you, (wish them well, don't be a dick) but just take a second to recognize this as something that you DON'T want to do or be. Don't make the choices that that person who is bad at business makes. Again, I know you already do this here and there, but I'm saying to really pay attention to it, appreciate it and use it.
 
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^^^^^^ Yup-what he said. I'm nowhere near what I'd consider good, but what you just said carries a lot of weight in a lot of different places. In my line of work, I've heard it said many times, you can learn from anyone. And that includes the guy you can't stand. If he does something you don't like or in a way you don't like, make sure you don't do it that way.

I've come to believe the only way anyone gets really good at anything is if he/she pays close attention and is very intentional with what is done. I don't begrudge anyone who just gets by making knives in what I'd consider a half-*** manner. If it's their hobby and they just have fun doing it-good for them. I happen to be too anal and can't manage to be satisfied with doing it that way. And one of the only ways I can actually get a ways better is to be very intentional-get critiqued and pay close attention to some of those "negative mentors" and understand what I want to do differently.

Well said, Mr. Rader-thanks for all the lessons.

Jeremy
 
[warning - thread self-hijack]
Ha ha. Don - that explains a lot :-) Now you've got a bunch of guys here reading these crazy books. You have to at least tell them which book to start with. I honestly don't know... maybe Fire Within? The Power of Silence is one of my favorites. The thing is that you really have to read all of them to understand any one book. Very, very strange, but... I don't know... I'm going to have to stick with my earlier statement, "Don't do it now unless you are on serious drugs..."

All right, guys, back on track here: Tell me about your preparations for becoming a better knifemaker. Ask me how many years of my life I've lost due to stress/trauma from the Mastersmith testing ordeal. (no, don't ask.)
 
This thread is great, I keep coming back to it!

The Castenada books are the best, I read my first three in three days long ago and have not stopped thinking about parts of them since.

I'll have some questions later, gotta think of something good. :D
 
[warning - thread self-re-hijack] Great, now everyone is going to think the three of us are crazy. Well... which one do you start with? Impossible to decide right? I mean, if they read the Art of Dreaming first, people's heads will pop. (I'm not kidding - don't do it. Nothing will make sense.) And, I thought the Second Ring of Power was just awful so don't ever read that one.

And, Daniel, do make sure your questions are good, OK? We don't accept anything but the best here in this (quickly disintegrating) thread...
:-)

Karl. Yes I've been told that helps, but I made the mistake of doing it cold-sober. It really has cost me more than I can ever know...
Brony. Well, I tested for J.S. in 2006... so, that makes it a about four years as a full-time maker (around 2002-2006) and about 15+ or so, off and on before that. So a grand total of... add the one.... carry the five.... ummmm... more time than I want to think about.
Moving on!!!
 
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Michael, this may or may not be relevant here, but you've been hijacking and re-hijacking the thread, so what the hell. :D

As a relatively new maker I find myself making all sorts of knives. From neck knives to swords and from khukuris to chefs knives. And from hollow grinds to flat, convex and hybrids. There is so much to learn with each genre and I love the variety.

I sometimes wonder if there is risk in becoming a "jack of all knive styles but a master of none". But, it all boils down to an edge, right?

Did you gravitate towards kitchen knives from the get-go, or was it something that evolved?
 
When I was getting ready to go for JS I asked Ed Caffrey how he liked one of my knives. He picked it up and gave it a quick look over and said nice looking knife. I then told him I was going for JS and he said Oh That makes a difference, picked it up and went over it again pointing out all the things that were off. It was eye opening but I knew most of what he was going to say. As Michael pointed out, let whomever looks over your knives know why you are asking.

Be open to the criticism. They are only trying to help. Dave Lisch came over to my table at the OKCA show and gave me some pointers on my kitchen knives. I appreciate that feedback greatly. If I did not want to use it I don't have to , but are you kidding me, I will use it.
 
Michael Rader said:
[warning - thread self-hijack]
Ha ha. Don - that explains a lot :-) Now you've got a bunch of guys here reading these crazy books. You have to at least tell them which book to start with. I honestly don't know... maybe Fire Within? The Power of Silence is one of my favorites. The thing is that you really have to read all of them to understand any one book. Very, very strange, but... I don't know... I'm going to have to stick with my earlier statement, "Don't do it now unless you are on serious drugs..."

All right, guys, back on track here: Tell me about your preparations for becoming a better knifemaker. Ask me how many years of my life I've lost due to stress/trauma from the Mastersmith testing ordeal. (no, don't ask.)
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I find that bold section particularly interesting. I'm not sure I've asked myself that in that specific way, though I certainly want to be better. For myself, I think can keep me from growing comes down to some motivation. It's been mentioned that one thing that can help a maker improve his knives is making more if them. Making knives is a hobby for me and sometimes getting myself into the shop to do some work is tough.

I recently paid for a table at a show this fall that our knife association is putting on (never done a show before). I can tell you there is a certain motivation to ensure I actually have knives for that table... I also got asked to help with the handle on a "member" knife that will be raffled off. It's a bit intimidating to take that responsibility on, but again-it provides me with motivation to do the absolute best I possibly can, rather than decline to participate.

Gotta outrun that lion critter with the laser.... ;). And Shawn, great question; I'm curious for the answer.


Jeremy
 
Back on track - very good - whew... And Chuck's story about talking with Caffrey and Dave is real stuff. It was actually half of Caffrey's words in my "be specific" rant.

Good question Shawn, however, no good answer. I was doing a bunch of different things for a long time too, basically whatever my customers wanted. I gravitated towards swords but I was hitting a dead-end because I didn't know how to make traditional Japanese or European styles. So, that is a pretty big deal with swords, you have to really focus on historically/traditionally accurate replicas unless you can tap into the fantasy market. In which case you better make it look like a sword that was in a movie or video game. I think the exception would be making shortswords that could be considered "bush" or "tactical." Those happen to be hot markets right now, so that's a bonus.

The kitchen knives came about because I was making some forged-integral knives and Daniel from BladeGallery told me to start making kitchen knives. I did and it was good. Murray Carter, Bob Kramer really did a lot of the legwork in letting the general public know that hand-made kitchen knives were available and cool. It's still a pretty good market and there is some very healthy competition out there.

The decision on what to make is a difficult one and you are not fully in control of it either. If we are talking about business, then you have to make what people will buy. Period. And you have to figure that out. Remember you are dealing with disposable income from people that don't "need" hand-made knives. Your real competition is from factory produced knives using near-slave labor, robots and 3D-printers. People are buying your knives because they want one-of-a-kind art and craftsmanship. Just have to keep that in perspective. Also, keep in mind that we may well only have a year or two left of this kind of art-knife, hand-made industry. Yup, I said it - the world is changing, our economy is about to flip on it's head and you might do best to just enjoying whatever you are doing. Maybe kiss your wife more, throw the ball with the kids, make whatever knives you enjoy and not worry about it too much.

[Let's not discuss the last three sentences here or we might get this thread moved to Whine and Cheese.] Could always start a thread there if you wanted...
 
Thank you for the response, Michael.

And without discussing that which shall not be discussed, I'd like to mention Nassim Taleb's books as a worthy read.
 
Thanks Shawn. Will do. After a lot of the news that came out recently I just worry a bit - that's all. Beef prices are going to go up. It just seems freedom here in America is in peril, but I could be wrong - and, I hope I am.

Okay, more about knives: There were some questions about types of knives that you should and should not use in testing and I didn't really cover that as well as I could. I'm going to do a little research today and get back with mighty lesson #4 a little later.
 
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