The Art of Critique

[Tai Goo]

This isn't about Steven or myself.

This is about "critique" itself.

... What Buddy was trying to say in former posts... which no one seemed to listen to.

 

[Tai Goo]

If a critique isn't serious and not sincere or fully scholarly,... it's not worth squat.

 

[David Schott]

My only questions are these:

In terms of a collector offering comments, what is the difference between "continued public justification of past purchases" and "critique?"

In terms of a maker offering comments, what is the difference between "continued public justification of chosen style" and "critique?"

 

[Tai Goo]

The best way to critique any given piece of art is first to understand the history, intent and purpose of the artist and art work. You need to judge it from the perspective of the originator.

How successful was this artist based upon his or her own concept,... regardless of "your" own personal tastes, preferences, etc...?

Try to look at it objectively.

Did the artist achieve their goal,... or was it unsuccessful by his or her own concept,… and why?

 

[Kohai999]

If a critique isn't serious and not sincere or fully scholarly,... it's not worth squat.

"Serious and sincere" is subjective.....and, again, Tai, it is your opinion that the critique isn't worth squat.

Just like art, the critique matters to the person giving it, and, ideally, the person getting it.

This is definitely not about me, but you did make it a bit "personalized",neh?

AT WORST it is not worth squat to the "critiquee", at best, valuable to both, and everyone else watching.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Tai Goo]

"Serious and sincere" is subjective.....and, again, Tai, it is your opinion that the critique isn't worth squat.

Just like art, the critique matters to the person giving it, and, ideally, the person getting it.

This is definitely not about me, but you did make it a bit "personalized",neh?

AT WORST it is not worth squat to the "critiquee", at best, valuable to both, and everyone else watching.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

You will have to work a lot harder and do your homework if you sincerely want to help me.

... if not, then...

 

[RogerP]

Gotta agree with Stevesan.........

This is a PUBLIC forum.

Posting here opens you up to WHATEVER........

You better get good or have thick skin!!!

Indeed. And perhaps more to the point, it is a KNIFE DISCUSSION FORUM. Posting a knife here is inviting discussion of same, which may involve people expressing what they like and what they don't and why. Whether that amounts to "serious critique" I will leave to those who possess a love of semantics.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

You will have to work a lot harder and do your homework if you sincerely want to help me.

... if not, then...

I wish you the best, and best for you....

....but I cannot help you.....and I don't critique your work, if you have not noticed..it is outside my realm...I don't understand it...but I love your older stuff.

Try to look at it objectively.

Did the artist achieve their goal,... or was it unsuccessful by his or her own concept,… and why?...

I come from a background of tattooing,(1987-1998) Tai…and while I was good on the line, the shop manager, James Hillary, http://www.tattooemporiums.com/artists/gallery_jimmy.html is GREAT. You might know him, Tai, he grew up in Tucson, worked at Dennis Dwyer’s shop.

Sometimes I like his stuff, sometimes not, but the customers are most always happy with their tattoos. When critiquing tattoos, the way that you approach the wearer is much different than you approach it when critiquing the tattoo artist. Intent is only one part of it…does it LOOK RIGHT? is the other part.

A lot of tattoo clients proudly wear crap…who are you to tell them it is not golden? From my background(opinion) things like art tend to be viewed as a little more black and white.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Tai Goo]

Indeed. And perhaps more to the point, it is a KNIFE DISCUSSION FORUM. Posting a knife here is inviting discussion of same, which may involve people expressing what they like and what they don't and why. Whether that amounts to "serious critique" I will leave to those who possess a love of semantics.

Roger

You can say whatever you like on a public forum, to a point,... but that doesn't make it right. We have no control ever that. I agree!

So, again,... why should we take any of it seriously, if it doesn't show the traits and characteristics of a serious critique?

... if it isn't of any use or value to the artist.

"What's the point"?

 

[Tai Goo]

Maybe it should be about tends, resale, marketing and money..

 

[Murray White]

Generally, from most photos, it is very difficult to review/critique a knife presented. Most photos just don't show enough information for a reasonable critique. The most folks can really do is to give an opinion of personal taste. Weight, shape, size and feel are not available from a photo. Most photos don't show tangs well, fit of scales to tang, shoulders etc which one can look more critically at during a real life critical exam.

Many viewers will post an "atta boy" even to a knife for sale but have no interest in its purchase because of style, lack of funds etc and sometimes this is confusing to a maker.

Other times makers will present a knife and have lots of interest in a purchase. Style and price fits lots of foks interest.

Hopefully, comments about a knife will not prevent users of the forum from posting images as most of the collectors reading these message love to see the knives that they would either love to own, see one time or learn more about what a maker is doing or a collector is collecting.

 

[RogerP]

You can say whatever you like on a public forum, to a point,... but that doesn't make it right. We have no control ever that. I agree!

So, again,... why should we take any of it seriously, if it doesn't show the traits and characteristics of a serious critique?

... if it isn't of any use or value to the artist.

"What's the point"?

Tai, you have made it abundantly clear that such would not be of any value to you - and that's more than fine. But what would be your basis for asserting that it would be of no value to anyone? Do you speak for all makers?

Some makers will find value in the opinions expressed by some collectors. Everyone is free to take what they choose from the posts made here on the forum. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that they should value all critiques offered. You appear to be advancing the proposition that anything which falls short of your definition of "serious critique" is without value to anyone. Saying it is so does not make it so. Neither does repeating it. What is the basis for your assertion?

Let's look at just two recent examples from forum discussions:

1) Russ Andrews posted som in-progress pics of a large bowie he was making for forumite Keith Montgomery. STeven posted that he thought the ricasso was too long - contributing to visual imbalance (or something like that). Both maker and customer talked about is and came to the conclusion that he was right. The ricasso was shortened and the knife completed. Both maker and client agreed that incorporating STeven's suggestion resulted in a better looking knife.

2) Kyle Royer - a newer maker - posted some pics of a very nice maple-handled damascus hunter. The wood was left with a matte finish. Kevin expressed the opinion that giving the handle a bit more of a buffed finish would look better as it would bring out the grain and colour in the wood. Kyle went and buffed the handle to a shinier finish and posted the results, expressing the opinion that Kevin was right - the handle did look better. A number of forumites posted their agreement with same.

Were these "serious and fully scholarly" critiques?

Not as I understand your use of those terms. But I expect you will have a hard time convincing the parties involved that these (opinion / critiques / suggestions / comments / pick-your-label) were "not worth squat".

Roger

 

[MVF]

Going along with RogerP above, let's remember that any critique made here is just as open to criticism as the knife that inspired it. I'm a relative newbie here, but that still doesn't mean I take anyone's criticism as gospel. So & so says the handle is too long- my response is "hmm, let's go back and look at it again and see if I agree with that"- I would imagine most react the same way. It may now appear too long to me as well, or not. If so, the critic did me (& whoever else agrees) a favor by pointing it out. If not, what's the harm?

I would also agree that, knowing the nature of this forum, anyone who posts a knife here is agreeing to accept criticism.

 

[Tai Goo]

Guys, I would welcome any serious critique of my work and value it, greatly! It's just that I never have received any that were much more than meaningless flattery or insults... I need more than that!

I want folks to put the same effort and sincerity into critique as I put into knifemaking! Then I'll listen...

Aside from that,... All in all, "irresponsible critique",… does more damage than good.

 

[Tai Goo]

It's really more the makers at "risk" than the collectors...

When a maker posts a pic, this obvious fact should be respected...

 

[Daniel]

I was going to offer my critique of your original post, but I thought that I had better read the linked articles before I offered my appraisal.

Good stuff in them there articles! thanks

 

[canineforge]

So, again,... why should we take any of it seriously, if it doesn't show the traits and characteristics of a serious critique?

... if it isn't of any use or value to the artist.

"What's the point"?

How it is taken is the point. Whether serious, scholarly, whatever...how the maker (artist)/collector takes it is the key. Does it need to be taken seriously? Taken in stride, critique of any type can be positive. It depends on the action taken. It can be blown off, or hit a chord and be acted on. Take it and run. Just don't sweat the small stuff.

- Joe

 

[Tai Goo]

How it is taken is the point. Whether serious, scholarly, whatever...how the maker (artist)/collector takes it is the key. Does it need to be taken seriously? Taken in stride, critique of any type can be positive. It depends on the action taken. It can be blown off, or hit a chord and be acted on. Take it and run. Just don't sweat the small stuff.

- Joe

Exactly,... it falls upon the artist's ability and skills at “receiving” critique, more than the skills of the critic... In this context.

So, how are makers supposed to take it? Maybe that's the real question...

 

[Tai Goo]

We each should realize and take seriously our "responsibilities" and place in the craft... or just keep quiet.

The general public views these things and is often swayed and confused by misinformation, and uneducated opinions… It can effect the livelihoods of sincere honest makers. There are folks just trying to put food on the table at the work they love...

What we have is amateur and hobbyist critics with nothing to lose, critiquing professional knifemakers,... Hey! You tell me?

Egocentric blowhards and self serving critics,... won't do any good on either side...

... just my opinion, for sure...

 

[Ken Williams]

MVF has said a mouthful in 5 lines.

Some of the most incompetent and ridiculous reviews I've ever seen have been "serious" reviews. I once co-authored a major tome (salmon science), which contradicted much of the establishment "science", that was little more than ideology. The insulting reviews that followed were a caricature of the real thing and pathetically hysterical. Bad criticism in the long run is more injurious to those that do it than to the people they target. Yes, life is tough, so shall we not live it nonetheless?

What often is left unsaid in the "art of critique" is the "art of accepting critique" (see my post on the kumbaya thread), which often is haywire, exacerbating bad criticism and/or stifling the good.

The kumbaya poll has spoken overwhelmingly in favor of open discussion. Critique-er and critique-ee watch your step but give us your best shot. Formites, cinch up your latigos and hang on to your saddle horns, for the forum will rock tonight.

Ken