The Bears' Den--Shirogorov Showcase

[Bacchus]

The Three Musketeers... well, more like their swords :

 

[ChazzyP]

Nice trio, B Bacchus ! I did a search to get a Gen on your Marbled CF knife and see that it's a 5 (or 5.1). The blade swedge is interesting and is similar to your CD Starship, but the G5 has a higher grind, which I tend to like better. I've seen too that the G5 also has thinner blade stock than the G4's which, to me, has both advantages and disadvantages on such a large blade--thinner=slicier while thicker=stronger for hard use.

I do really like your orange retro knife--the color really pops on that G10. While I'm a big fan of the older style fuller on my 111, the high grind and plain blade is a nice clean feature and, in this case, the 3.2 mm blade stock must be wicked slicey. I like the "older" blade stock too--I've got 2 Shiros in S30V and one in 440C and don't find those blades lacking in any way. After all, today's dated steels were yesterday's super steels and Shiro's heat treats of all steels leave nothing to be desired.

BTW, I just found those shop-tour vids you sent along. It took a little web-crawling to find how to add closed captioning and auto-translate. Those lag just a bit behind and offer a fair amount of inaccuracy, but that just adds to the fun. I'll watch those when I have a bit of time for them.

 

[Chuck_Nunface]

Back on my bullshizz

 

[Mr.sig239]

Out to eat with the wife tonight.
View attachment 2616661

 

[DocJekl]

Out to eat with the wife tonight.
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That looks great. I regret not buying that silver carbon fiber Dr Death for sale here a few weeks ago (I think I was the first to see the WTS), but my pre-ordered John Wick 4 took me way over budget for a knife that costly.

 

[Mr.sig239]

Poor overworked Neon pic.
View attachment 2617452

 

[Bacchus]

I've disassembled my F95 Zero 2024 for cleaning and the latest Orange 111 Gen 4 for the sake of curiosity.

The updated Zero has some minor changes compared to the 1st release -- "mrbs" label moved from the middle closer to the pivot.

Regarding the 111's blade, I was surprised to see the same detent ramp as on Zero's blade, which is a relatively recent feature, uncommon for the blades prior to Gen 5 / 5.1. There's also a mysterious round mark next to the detent hole, probably due to cutter/burr positioning error, no big deal.

 

[ChazzyP]

I think you've got a pretty special knife there, B Bacchus . As you had posited in your earlier post that a warehouse search may have discovered some earlier, unused materials that Shiro decided to use up, my guess would be that they found not a 111 blade, but simply a bit of S35VN stock that they decided to mill to the current standard. Is your marbled carbon 111 a Gen 5.0 or 5.1. I'm curious to know how your orange beauty's blade matches up with your CF knife's. Regardless, that 111 you just acquired is surely rare if not unique. Sweet....

 

[Bacchus]

I think you've got a pretty special knife there, B Bacchus . As you had posited in your earlier post that a warehouse search may have discovered some earlier, unused materials that Shiro decided to use up, my guess would be that they found not a 111 blade, but simply a bit of S35VN stock that they decided to mill to the current standard. Is your marbled carbon 111 a Gen 5.0 or 5.1. I'm curious to know how your orange beauty's blade matches up with your CF knife's. Regardless, that 111 you just acquired is surely rare if not unique. Sweet....

ChazzyP , thank you for the complimentary comment. I agree, discovering some older steel leftovers is a way more likely scenario.

At first glance the blade on the orange 111 conforms to Gen 4 standards, except it has (1) a higher grind than common "3/4 grind", (2) unusually thin 3.2 mm blade stock and (3) a very practical choil (I expect 3-4 sharpening cycles without extra hassle).

I did hope to confirm the detent ramp feature, since a suspiciously curved blade "heel" gave me a hint beforehand. Not sure if "heel" is the right term, I mean the "rear surface" of the blade, where it contacts the lockbar.

According to the maker's site/forum the difference between Gen 5 and Gen 5.1 is rather minor, the former were 3.5 mm and offered in 3 color variations (purple, blue or bronze CF with matching clip & spacer anodization), while the later are 2.7 - 3 mm with marbled CF scales without color tones.

My CF 111 was bought directly from the maker's site a year ago, labelled appropriately (as Gen 5.1) on the box side sticker.

I do like (and intend to keep) both of them, but Gen 5.x feels like a fancy office accessary not intended for actual field use, while Gen 4 reminds me the very 1st generation, which surely felt like a real life tool (despite some minor design flaws, fixed in Gen 2/3).

I've got 2 Shiros in S30V and one in 440C and don't find those blades lacking in any way. After all, today's dated steels were yesterday's super steels and Shiro's heat treats of all steels leave nothing to be desired.

I do know that 440C was a super steel back in the days (compared to 420, etc.). And I agree that almost any PM/PSF steel is good enough for practical use (assuming adequate heat treatment), even older alloy compositions (i.e. 154CM -> CTS-BD4, D2 -> PSF27) benefit from refined structure and uniformly distributed smaller carbides (better corrosion resistance and edge retention).

But I struggle wrapping my mind around the idea of paying $800 for a basic 440C / G10 combination in 2024 . Especially when I see 440C, ATS-34, S30V and S35VN offered for the same price.

 

[Jetlau3111]

Still rocking these 2 . Haven’t felt the need to get my 3rd Shiro yet. What’s next ?

 

[ChazzyP]

ChazzyP , thank you for the complimentary comment. I agree, discovering some older steel leftovers is a way more likely scenario.

At first glance the blade on the orange 111 conforms to Gen 4 standards, except it has (1) a higher grind than common "3/4 grind", (2) unusually thin 3.2 mm blade stock and (3) a very practical choil (I expect 3-4 sharpening cycles without extra hassle).

The blade grind proportion on my Gen 4 has the flat projecting a bit short of the lower edge of the fuller, making it something more like a 7/8 grind. There were some Gen 4's that came without fullers and I imagine their blade flats were likely the same. Your orange knife's flats are definitely higher as I could tell looking at your pics and seeing that the flat on yours plays out along the spine farther back than on my G4. Your G5.1's blade flat is similar to my G4's in relation to the tip of the fuller, though where it would play out along the spine is harder to read due to its swedge (false edge).

I also wondered if the grind on your newest might be the same as on the "budget" Elmax/G10 111's that were offered a while back, but a bit of web-crawling found those blades to be FFG. Given the "usable choil" on the orange 111, my best guess is that the overall blade shape was water-jet cut to the same spec as the 5/5.1's then, as a one-off or very limited run of older blade stock, it was hand ground and came out higher. These little details are always interesting, though trying figure them all out is definitely speculative.

I did hope to confirm the detent ramp feature, since a suspiciously curved blade "heel" gave me a hint beforehand. Not sure if "heel" is the right term, I mean the "rear surface" of the blade, where it contacts the lockbar.

Does your Gen 5.1 have a detent ball ramp too? That's a feature on frame/liner locks that I particularly enjoy, though I find them useful on some knives and un-needed on others. Given the way I close those types of locks, letting a flipper tab, ricasso, or edge bevel hit my thumb nail, a knife that has the detent ball hit the lock ramp (as opposed to the term "heel"), stopping the blade swing beforehand, makes for a needed secondary motion before finger flicking or free-dropping the blade shut. Most of my Hinderers do this which I find annoying despite being fond of those knives. OTOH, my 111's blade easily falls past this point and my habit is to just pull my thumb back after and let it free drop nicely. Sweet.

I do know that 440C was a super steel back in the days (compared to 420, etc.). And I agree that almost any PM/PSF steel is good enough for practical use (assuming adequate heat treatment), even older alloy compositions (i.e. 154CM -> CTS-BD4, D2 -> PSF27) benefit from refined structure and uniformly distributed smaller carbides (better corrosion resistance and edge retention).

But I struggle wrapping my mind around the idea of paying $800 for a basic 440C / G10 combination in 2024 . Especially when I see 440C, ATS-34, S30V and S35VN offered for the same price.

I've got a lot a of older knives, as you might assume from Mr Old School, and have always been fine with their older steels--ATS34, 154CM, 440C, D2, VG10, AUS 8 on Benchmades, Spydercos, Al Mars, etc--as well as the somewhat more recent S30V andS35VN, and find them perfectly adequate for sharpenability and keenness with acceptable edge retention. The newer PM versions of some of those are even better. As you mention, if they're properly heat treated they're fine.

Some of those were bought new back when and some more recently on the secondary market for considerably less than their original pricing. That's fine by me, but I agree that wrapping one's head around $800 or so today for something new in a more dated steel requires a fair degree of mental gymnastics and desire. Still, I think your new orange beauty was well worth whatever you may have paid as S35VN is still a damn good steel and your knife is something of a unicorn.

 

[Mr.sig239]

Speaking of older knives. Grabbed blue out of the roll for today.

 

[ChazzyP]

I had my 111 out to compare while posting above this morning, figured I might as well carry it, posted it over at the EDC thread, and might as well put it here too.

 

[Bacchus]

Dear ChazzyP , I'm really sorry for a delay with blade shape comparison -- I did make a few rather pathetic attempts to make comparable pictures, but failed.

It became obvious, that quick & dirty tracing on paper is the only viable option until the weekend, when I might be able to arrange the proper setup -- including a tripod + DSLR + Panavise + both blades + proper light source + background.

The result is far from ideal, but I hope it illustrates that my Gen 4 blade outline might be similar to your CF 111's, or at least it does not match Gen 5.1 blade, which is wider and has a pronounced belly.

BTW, according to my experience the grind shape (and sharpening choil size) could vary considerably within the same generation even for top-tier blades.

Here is a photo from maker's announcement of Stellar Bronze & Blue versions (dated 2024-04-10) -- I'd prefer the one on the left in a heartbeat due to the grind, even though bronze theme is more attractive for me.

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Does your Gen 5.1 have a detent ball ramp too?

Yep, all my current 90/95/111 mm Shiro folders do have a detent ball ramp -- Hati Gen 3, F95T Gen 4, 111 Gen 5.1, Stellar FP, 111 Starship, F95 Zero (2024), 111 Gen 4 (2024).

But NeOn R20 does not and ramp absence is quite noticeable.

Not sure about F95 Zero (January 2022) which I sold a year ago -- definitely no CPS and most likely no ramp.

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That's fine by me, but I agree that wrapping one's head around $800 or so today for something new in a more dated steel requires a fair degree of mental gymnastics and desire. Still, I think your new orange beauty was well worth whatever you may have paid as S35VN is still a damn good steel and your knife is something of a unicorn.

It seems that my earlier comment regarding the $800 price tag was a bit misleading. I was trying to express my doubts about the demand for ingot (non-PM) steels, and I might not be the only guy with a lack of mental flexibility and urge to get a 440C or Cronidur blade. The fact that these versions remain available for 2+ weeks on both sides of the pond (while ATS-34 / S30V / S35VN were instantly sold out) either means disproportionally larger stock or lack of demand or both.

Anyway, let me assure you, that I was pretty happy to pay $800 for unexpected drop of 111 Gen 4 with any CPM-steel, even before discovering extra features like detent ball ramp. Now I'm more than happy.

Actually, S35VN was the most desirable as I'd love to see some practical evidence of Chris Reeve being not quite right to aim for 58-59 HRC. Large Sebenza 21 is my most used and loved CRK folder, but its blade requires annoyingly often touch-ups and it's painfully hard to de-burr at the end of sharpening process. My current assumption is that the mentioned issues were caused mostly by CRK heat-treatment protocol for S35VN, not by the steel composition.

 

[Mr.sig239]

 

[ChazzyP]

B Bacchus --no worries regarding any "delays" as your responses are always appreciated and no lag-time seems overly long. I'm pleased to have someone here engaged in actual discourse about knives, steels, milling, etc and not to have only discussions based on colors, dealer drops, etc. I'm certainly not the quickest to respond either, depending on what else is going on here or whatever inspiration might be required to actually compose my thoughts and post.

I did notice in your Three Musketeers pic that your Gen 5.1 seemed to have more belly than your other two 111's, but it was hard to compare as it was laid on its opposite side. Thanks for confirming that.

As to 440C, I wouldn't have paid anywhere near the price of a new knife for my 100NS Tabargan in that steel, but was more than pleased to pay around half for mine which was long out of production and not an easy find. It also helped to fill the void from the higher-end, custom scaled version of that model that I stupidly sold.

I agree with you regarding the softer heat treats of earlier CRK's. I've got a bunch of those--both earlier and later models--and am glad that they eventually upped their hardness by a couple points. I find the best way deal with touch up and fighting back the burr on those is to stay simple and use the Sharpmaker on those knives. My two Shiros that are S30V--NeOn UL and F3 Python--pose no such problems, are way easier to sharpen, and have far superior edge retention than not only Reeves but BMKs and Spydies as well. I'm sure your S35VN 111 blade will behave similarly to my NeOn's and F3's.

Finally, I worked on my RDD yesterday, interior cleaning and going to a lighter lube for freer action, so I moved from the big boy 111 and downsized to the Doctor, though that one still features an almost 100 mm Vanax 37 blade in an amazingly light and compact package.

I'd neglected to clean out all the lockside pockets (above) before painstakingly re-installing the 14 tiny roller bearings, but rest assured that I did get them spic n' span with an alcohol dampened cotton swab.

 

[Pompous]

Been away from the Den for a while with my F95 Icebreaker back at the mothership for a detent issue. I was surprised to search the thread and see no mention of the CDX! One of the most exciting announcements of the last few years (in my opinion) though obviously they are INCREDIBLY in demand. I am looking forward to trying to hunt one down toward the end of the year - The F7 Titanium (on which the CDX is based) is my long time Shirogorov grail - and a true grail at that. I would never spend the asking price the F7 Ti commands, if I did spend it I would certainly struggle to carry the knife (and as a general rule I try not to own knives I do not carry) - and more to the point, no one who owns an F7 Ti would even consider selling it anyway.

The CDX is the perfect solution to all these problems - and with the larger-than-standard run size, there is a chance (though very small) that it might drop to "normal" CD secondary pricing if given enough time. Right now they are trading in the 7k range secondary, but I'd be happy to pick one up in the 5s. We'll see how it all shakes out!

 

[Leo Greer]

Yep, all my current 90/95/111 mm Shiro folders do have a detent ball ramp -- Hati Gen 3, F95T Gen 4, 111 Gen 5.1, Stellar FP, 111 Starship, F95 Zero (2024), 111 Gen 4 (2024).

But NeOn R20 does not and ramp absence is quite noticeable.

Not sure about F95 Zero (January 2022) which I sold a year ago -- definitely no CPS and most likely no ramp.

I have a Quantum Ursus from 2019 that has the detent ramp. I’m not sure how far back Shirogorov started doing them, but I was surprised to find one on my Ursus and not my R20. My 2022 Quantum G2 also had one.



Here’s a pic of the R20 and a Haptic, because pictures make any post better!

 

[Bacchus]

I have a Quantum Ursus from 2019 that has the detent ramp. I’m not sure how far back Shirogorov started doing them, but I was surprised to find one on my Ursus and not my R20. My 2022 Quantum G2 also had one.

Thanks for the extra info, it is surprising indeed.

But are you sure that your Quantum Ursus was made in 2019?

According to the maker's website an affordable series of Quantum model was announced on 2021-12-09 as Quantum Ursus and it was offered with wood inlays only (hence NL suffix) at first, G10 versions appeared a few months later.

I wonder if your knife is a special edition, made for specific US dealer with exclusive pattern on the scales.

The 1st generation of production Quantum did have a ramp, according to the photo from the official announcement (dated 2020-03-21) -- probably it is the 1st production model (top-tier, but nonetheless) to incorporate the feature:

 

[Bacchus]

Been away from the Den for a while with my F95 Icebreaker back at the mothership for a detent issue. I was surprised to search the thread and see no mention of the CDX! One of the most exciting announcements of the last few years (in my opinion) though obviously they are INCREDIBLY in demand.

Meanwhile there's something to hunt tomorrow... Here's a teaser from social media, posted by the maker with the following comment:

"Very soon (at 1pm PST tomorrow for our international collectors, to be exact)"

I really hope it's Astrum FP.

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Oh, yeah!.. I desperately want one as an EDC -- a 100×3 mm MagnaCut blade might be very interesting. The scales texturing is relatively simpler (compared to Astrum CD), but obviously more grippy than production Stellar.