The Composition of Infi and What it Means

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Ajack60 said:
Where's the proof that INFI has been changed in the last ten years. Without a current data sheet, someone making claim that it's been changed doesn't hold water.
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I believe Busse has claimed that it has changed. I don't think they would outright lie, but "new and improved" doesn't necessarily mean much at all.
 
danbot said:
I believe Busse has claimed that it has changed. I don't think they would outright lie, but "new and improved" doesn't necessarily mean much at all.
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Absolutely agree, but I wonder if the way Busse does the heat treat/ tweaks are more relevant to INFI being INFI more so
than the composition of the steel. I say that because Nathan Carothers and Ben Tindick have a different method of getting better performance out of 3V than the recommended heat treat.
 
I bet the "changes" have been changes in suppliers, which means the "mod" part is a little different. And it was probably done for purely pragmatic reasons of being able to get a better price on the material or more convenient stock dimensions that weren't available from the prior supplier. It takes a lot of time and effort to dial in production processes as nicely as they seem to have, and they wouldn't have changed unless either they had to or there was a distinct business advantage in doing so that made it worth the hassle. Since they already had a market monopoly on "INFI", it's unlikely they changed the formulation at all just for the heck of it. It's not like anyone else had anything that was muscling in on the same market positioning.
 
Ajack60 said:
Absolutely agree, but I wonder if the way Busse does the heat treat/ tweaks are more relevant to INFI being INFI more so
than the composition of the steel. I say that because Nathan Carothers and Ben Tindick have a different method of getting better performance out of 3V than the recommended heat treat.
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That could very well be, and most likely is the case.
 
Given how thick the stuff comes I wonder if they have to just buy the thickest stuff they can get and do something like wire EDM'ing bar stock off of it and that's why it's done in such limited runs. Carpenter lists non-mod A8 in their full plate inventory in thicknesses up to 5", which would be more than wide enough for most (if not possibly all) of their designs.
 
I have no dinosaur in this orgy as they say, but I am disturbed by how some people are comfortable questioning statements by Mr. Busse a well respected knifemaker and businessman concerning tweaking of INFI over the years.
 
thebrain said:
I have no dinosaur in this orgy as they say, but I am disturbed by how some people are comfortable questioning statements by Mr. Busse a well respected knifemaker and businessman concerning tweaking of INFI over the years.
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I may have missed it--where were his statements directly questioned? It's been pretty much a given all this time that INFI would have to be an off-the-shelf steel due to the outrageous expense and logistics of getting custom pours done. As I understand it you have to commit to many thousands of tons on a monthly delivery schedule in order to get steel mills to even give you the time of day when it comes to even doing things like custom thicknesses of steels they already make, let alone something totally new.

So that being understood, INFI has been a trade name for an off-the-shelf steel (granted one that's probably niche and/or difficult to get in knife-friendly dimensions) that's been processed and heat treated by Busse. Sort of like how Cold Steel had their "Carbon V" until the mill that made it decided not to anymore, and Case has "Tru-Sharp" which is largely agreed to just be 420HC. Some seem to have taken this as if it's an attack of some kind, but it's just the logistics of things, and it doesn't make the end results better or worse. I mean, if it IS A8 Mod then you'd be likely to have all sorts of people writing all the time asking what the specific formulation is, and if they gave out the specifics it would potentially reveal their source, due to the "fingerprint" the specs would have. It's smart, marketing-wise, to just give it the trade name and keep the specifics as close to their chest as they're able. The more barriers to entry they have, the safer their golden goose is. And they've certainly worked hard to get where they are, so it's not like they're being selfish or anything. It's just business strategy. :)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I may have missed it--where were his statements directly questioned? It's been pretty much a given all this time that INFI would have to be an off-the-shelf steel due to the outrageous expense and logistics of getting custom pours done. As I understand it you have to commit to many thousands of tons on a monthly delivery schedule in order to get steel mills to even give you the time of day when it comes to even doing things like custom thicknesses of steels they already make, let alone something totally new.

So that being understood, INFI has been a trade name for an off-the-shelf steel (granted one that's probably niche and/or difficult to get in knife-friendly dimensions) that's been processed and heat treated by Busse. Sort of like how Cold Steel had their "Carbon V" until the mill that made it decided not to anymore, and Case has "Tru-Sharp" which is largely agreed to just be 420HC. Some seem to have taken this as if it's an attack of some kind, but it's just the logistics of things, and it doesn't make the end results better or worse. I mean, if it IS A8 Mod then you'd be likely to have all sorts of people writing all the time asking what the specific formulation is, and if they gave out the specifics it would potentially reveal their source, due to the "fingerprint" the specs would have. It's smart, marketing-wise, to just give it the trade name and keep the specifics as close to their chest as they're able. The more barriers to entry they have, the safer their golden goose is. And they've certainly worked hard to get where they are, so it's not like they're being selfish or anything. It's just business strategy. :)
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I would also hope/think they have some sort of non disclosure agreement with the supplier that secures their proprietorship
 
Some of you guys sound like you don’t want to know what this stuff is. I don’t understand why you are upset with those of us who like discussing and analyzing these things. From attacks on Larrin for posting his analysis to claiming that we somehow offended Mr. Busse. Busse is clearly a brilliant businessman and a marketing genius, he seems to sell every knife his company makes and couldn’t care less of what we discuss here. It is perfectly natural for people to try to figure out what this stuff is given the claims and secrecy around it. Larrin doesn’t charge you for his contributions, if you don’t care don’t read his stuff. It is very easy to criticize without adding anything of your own. Like I wrote before, religious like following of some members is very odd. INFI is a steel, I hope we can all agree with this. As such it has to have attributes of steels, it is not some magic material regardless of what it is and how good the heat treat is.
 
From 2006
  1. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379997

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  2. Jan 30, 2006#51

    Jerry BusseModeratorModerator
    Larrin said:
    I have found both chipper steel and some companies' A8 mod. that had the exact same composition as INFI (within a few tenths of a percent of course). You're the one who hasn't done any searching.
    Larrin,

    There are MANY steels that are within a few tenths of a percentage of another grade of steel and yet they have earned their own specific grade designation.

    Looking at the composition of a steel and making statements about its edge holding and other performance characteristics is like reading a recipe and telling people how something is going to taste. . . it's pretty far out. Here's a post that you made on another forum concerning INFI.

    Originally Posted by Larrin
    "INFI is mostly a product of hype. . . It will have high toughness, but average at best edge retention."

    Here was my response,

    ". . .average at best edge retention"???

    In a "LIVE" demonstration at the BLADE Show we made 2,771 cuts through 1" diameter hemp rope with the same 2" wide section of an INFI blade. That small section of blade still easily shaved through paper. We, likewise, cut 3,132 pieces at the Nashville show and bent the same knife over 70 degrees without damage. Is this what you call "average at best edge retention" ??? If so, please direct me to ANY other manufacturer who has repeatedly done "LIVE" testing in front of the public at major knife shows or one who has come close to this level of performance and proven it in a "LIVE" public demo. . . . NONE have.

    "Hype" has been defined as "Something that is deliberately misleading; a deception" This definition of "HYPE" fits your unsupported remarks far better than does the proven performance of Busse Combat blades.

    We have invited every major manufacturer to step up and do "LIVE" performance testing with their own blades. . . . none have accepted. . .

    After I posted my response, you then posted the following,

    Originally Posted by Larrin
    "You may, of course, take my thoughts with a grain of salt, as I am only looking at the composition, I have never used the steel."

    That's a pretty big grain of salt. . . don'tcha think?:confused:

    I don't really care what the composition of a steel is. . . I only care about its proven performance. So, with that in mind, could you please direct me to ANY "live" demonstration where anybody, anywhere at any time has come close to duplicating our performance???. . .or better yet, direct me to where someone has at least had the cajones to try?

    Anybody. . . .anywhere. . . .at any time?


    Regards,

    Jerry Busse
 
thebrain said:
From 2006
  1. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379997

    Like+ QuoteReply

  2. Jan 30, 2006#51

    Jerry BusseModeratorModerator
    Larrin said:
    I have found both chipper steel and some companies' A8 mod. that had the exact same composition as INFI (within a few tenths of a percent of course). You're the one who hasn't done any searching.
    Larrin,

    There are MANY steels that are within a few tenths of a percentage of another grade of steel and yet they have earned their own specific grade designation.

    Looking at the composition of a steel and making statements about its edge holding and other performance characteristics is like reading a recipe and telling people how something is going to taste. . . it's pretty far out. Here's a post that you made on another forum concerning INFI.

    Originally Posted by Larrin
    "INFI is mostly a product of hype. . . It will have high toughness, but average at best edge retention."

    Here was my response,

    ". . .average at best edge retention"???

    In a "LIVE" demonstration at the BLADE Show we made 2,771 cuts through 1" diameter hemp rope with the same 2" wide section of an INFI blade. That small section of blade still easily shaved through paper. We, likewise, cut 3,132 pieces at the Nashville show and bent the same knife over 70 degrees without damage. Is this what you call "average at best edge retention" ??? If so, please direct me to ANY other manufacturer who has repeatedly done "LIVE" testing in front of the public at major knife shows or one who has come close to this level of performance and proven it in a "LIVE" public demo. . . . NONE have.

    "Hype" has been defined as "Something that is deliberately misleading; a deception" This definition of "HYPE" fits your unsupported remarks far better than does the proven performance of Busse Combat blades.

    We have invited every major manufacturer to step up and do "LIVE" performance testing with their own blades. . . . none have accepted. . .

    After I posted my response, you then posted the following,

    Originally Posted by Larrin
    "You may, of course, take my thoughts with a grain of salt, as I am only looking at the composition, I have never used the steel."

    That's a pretty big grain of salt. . . don'tcha think?:confused:

    I don't really care what the composition of a steel is. . . I only care about its proven performance. So, with that in mind, could you please direct me to ANY "live" demonstration where anybody, anywhere at any time has come close to duplicating our performance???. . .or better yet, direct me to where someone has at least had the cajones to try?

    Anybody. . . .anywhere. . . .at any time?


    Regards,

    Jerry Busse
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Is Jerry actually replying to Larrin here from 2006??
 
This is copy/paste from pretty much the same thread in 2006 this is not a new subject for the op.
 
Copy/paste from BusseCombat.com

"INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. It is ONLY available through Busse Combat."

So then the words used are examined.
Proprietary...
"Made, offered, or sold only under the exclusive rights of the propertyownership (governed by copyright, patent, and trade secret laws) of a manufacturer, offeror, or seller. Proprietary items usually have distinctive characteristics or features."

Conclusion,
Likely not an off the shelf item with special heat treat. A special item with a special heat treat. As my reading on the subject continues I find more information.
 
Regardless of the ancient history, since at the time INFI was a different steel and at the time we, as a knife community, knew a lot less about steels and a lot fewer steels were available to knife makers. The question I have is this; why are INFI fans concerned with INFI being a “regular” steel. After all no one is saying the steel is bad, or that the heat treat is bad or that the knives are bad. Let’s say INFI is a8 mod heat treated well with the geometry that excels in what Busse knives are known for, does this in any way diminishes the quality or performance of the knives?

Look at cutting competitions, these guys do some amazing stuff. They take “regular” steels m4, v4, v4e heat treat them well for the performance they need and do great things with these knives.

I also am not buying that chemical composition of a steel does not tell you its general performance parameters and limitations. This is not how steel or any other materials industries work. Knives especially niche, expensive knives are such a minor portion of the steel use that they probably don’t even register on the steel industry radar. Steels are developed for other applications and steels’ chemical compositions definitely tell users what to expect from a given steel and how to heat treat it. Yes, you can tweak the heat treat to improve performance in some or even most areas, but your performance envelop will be limited by the chemistry. So if INFI is chemically close to a8 mod, they will perform in a similar fashion given good heat treat for both and similar geometry.

Liking knife making to cooking while poetic is not really correct. Cooking is not normally done using science, but steel development and heat treat regiments are, at least on the large scale, knife makers piggy back of that. Plus if you took same recipes and gave them to similarly skilled chefs you would get similarly tasting dishes anyway. Can you imagine if recipes could not be reproduced they would not be recipes, would they?
 
I don't get it. Larrin, a bona fide metallurgist, says that based on what he can find some steel is very close to another steel. Nothing crazy about it that can't be done by anyone else. It's a steel that acts like a steel.

Some guy posts some supposed witness to a demonstration and that supposed witness says he cannot figure out how the steel is so magical.

Big claims that Busse makes and offers for anyone to try to dispute.

I would guess, though, that Busse wouldn't send a knife to Larrin to experiment with. Anyone know? Even if this goes far back with Larrin saying there's no magic involved and Busse telling Larrin to screw off, who cares. If Larrin can't or won't test the claims or if people with proprietary methods won't reveal those methods, then all this does is cause controversy.

Maker says his stuff is better, maker says feel free to test, people test and say it's good, metallurgist comes in and says BS. Metallurgist speaks of the material science. People say the metallurgist needs to test before refuting claims. None of that is unreasonable. The only thing unreasonable is a metallurgist making claims without testing and makers hiding behind psuedoscience, and then, of course, us in the peanut gallery taking sides.
 
thebrain said:
Other nearly scientific testing .
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Well , just before end of that video on 5 : 07 min. the top two knives have thicker edge then all chisel I have .My cheapest chisel can cut nail all day without any damage !! And because of that I call this test cheating :thumbsdown:
 
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Mr. Carothers says they all have the same edge angle in the video. As a machinist by trade I would bet he can both create and measure the edge just fine. I only posted here out of concern for misinformation.
Mr. Larrin posted test done by someone else many years ago on a knife or knives unknown to him, then says "This is INFI" my problem is this.....Is it??? He cannot say with any level of certainty it is. The proper way to do this would be aquire an example without the knowledge of Busse combat and have it tested himself. I'm not saying he has to buy it many here would likely allow a knife to be tested and returned. Of course this would need to be a recent model. Also the reason for a knife to not be provided by Busse Combat would be to ensure that it was a regular product and not a special or altered sample. All to ensure the science is sound. I don't claim magic steel or anything other that not conclusive science being pushed as fact.

P.S. you must have strange chisels as I use them almost daily and none I have used could cut nails repeatedly. Even rough use "cold chisels" do not go undamaged by framing nails, especially at than thin an edge.
 
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