The cool factor

Unsub said:
I just got my first forged bowie after a couple years of using the best quality production versions and I was SHOCKED at how much better the forged bowie cut.
I think that if we had some good scientific method about the performance differences between forged and stock removal blades then forged knives would get a lot more respect.

I also like the way Ed Fowler uses scientific method to test his blades.
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I don't think (and most here will agree) that the reason your Bowie cut better was the forging. The science shows and proves that forging actually does nothing to improve the steel. First, all modern steel is forged to a certain point when the mill reduces it to its distributed shape. It is also much better controlled the ancient steel which need forging to help remove impurities, homogenize and reduce inclusions. Modern tool steels are melted in vacuum induction ovens with very high quality controls.The most probable reason your bowie was such an improvement over production models was selection of material for performance over ease of production, care and control over the heat treating and tempering of your blade instead of being just another piece in a production furnace run by a near minimum wage guy who didn't really care much about a little variation or time or temp. I knew a guy who worked in a HT facility which did blades for a well know knife company. Plus, the craftsman who made and sharpened your blade truly cared. The guy (or machine) who made and sharpened the production knife was just looking for acceptable tolerance. I guarantee a good stock removal guy can make a blade of the same material that is hair topping sharp and hold an edge just as well as one forged from the same bar. I love forged steel. I love forged and forging knives. For the craftsmanship, the use of material, the shapes possible, the traditions of the past, creating of damascus and the personal thrill of feeling the hammer on steel and seeing it form. I ALSO LOVE THE COOL FACTOR. The edge itself is in the composition of the steel, the control of the HT and temper and the geometry of the blade.
 
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I do not make knives and I am not a knife aficionado but I know that "cool" does not cut. Unless you're an art collector you want a knife, forged or ground, that cuts. People can't count on cool.

Trying to defend mysticism by spitting on science screams, "My knives won't deliver."

Now, my favourite knife is actually a cut throat razor from Thiers-Issard of France. It is New Old Stock (NOS). It was forged over a century ago by the company's founder, Pierre Thiers, with all the mysticism and romance you could handle. Years later the blank was ground and heat treated by a craftsman guided by the romanticism of yesterday and the science of today. An ideal compromise. No?

How many of you forging knives have electricity in your shop? Running water? Gas forges or ovens? Molten salts? Nothing mystical about that. Nothing romantic about that.

My first book on cutlery was Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist (reading it now!), so maybe my opinion double doesn't count on the romance of sweaty men hammering steel.
 
I dunno, Tai. I make stuff that screams my name, apparently. I've had knives of mine picked out as my work from across a room. I put a lot of art and a huge amount of ... oh, call it zen, or wu wei, into my designs.

I do some forging, but most of my work ends up being stock removal. I had one of the local aikido instructors tell me I move my hands artistically when he was watching me grind out a leuku. And I can defnitely feel the knife when i am at the coote.

So, what's up with all the hate on stock removal? :D

The science is for making sure my art functions. It's important. It doesn't take away from my art.
 
Tai Goo said:
It maybe a bit green, but...

If you do the math,… It's often an unnecessary waste of good steel. :D
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thats still no reason to diminish the art, and hard work that it takes to make a blade by grinding....grinding or forging, the end result is the same :)
 
SShepherd said:
thats still no reason to diminish the art, and hard work that it takes to make a blade by grinding....grinding or forging, the end result is the same :)
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I see your point,... but the end result may not necessarily be the same...

It might be even better!... It just depends. :D
 
i admit that I'm better at "take a block of metal, remove everything that's not a knife"

then again, I make stuff that's as simple in shape and usable as possible, so I don't always even remove that much.
 
Tai Goo said:
I see your point,... but the end result may not necessarily be the same...

It might be even better!... It just depends. :D
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depends is something to be worn when your too old to hold in the BS:p;)

I think it's been shown that forged or stock produces functionaly similar blades...

what is this "better" you speak of?
 
SShepherd said:
what is this "better" you speak of?
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It (stock reduction) is safe, simple, scientific, not much risk involved, and it doesn't carry all of the mythology, culture, romance, and history B.S. with it...

I've tested a lot of knives by other makers over the years both stock reduction and forged, both custom and production. I would have to say that in terms of "pure performance" the stock reduction knives on an average were much better... harder/tougher etc... However, none of them became my favorite knives and were not as much of a pleasure to use as a few of the best examples of the forged blades.... the forged blades had something intangible and mysterious that the stock reduction blades didn't,... call it the "cool factor",... the feel, or the vibe... and the best examples were comparable in terms of "pure performance" to the best stock reduction knives I tested. :)

It's apples and oranges... not the same.

It just "depends" what you like...

I do think that the stock reduction approach of machining blades from air hardening steels and sending them out for heat treating is much more logical and "scientific", than any smithing approach... and is better suited for the scientific mind set.
 
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Tai Goo said:
It (stock reduction) is safe, simple, scientific, not much risk involved, and it doesn't carry all of the mythology, culture, romance, and history B.S. with it...

I've tested a lot of knives by other makers over the years both stock reduction and forged, both custom and production. I would have to say that in terms of "pure performance" the stock reduction knives on an average were much better... harder/tougher etc... However, none of them became my favorite knives and were not as much of a pleasure to use as a few of the best examples of the forged blades.... the forged blades had something intangible and mysterious that the stock reduction blades didn't,... call it the "cool factor",... the feel, or the vibe... and the best examples were comparable in terms of "pure performance" to the best stock reduction knives I tested. :)

It's apples and oranges... not the same.

It just "depends" what you like...
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Lets not start confusing "fact" with "opinion" or "emotion"

It (stock reduction) is safe, simple, scientific, not much risk involved,
I'd hardly call any of Lorchners' or Broadwells work "safe" or "simple"..with not much risk involved. Thou dost paint with too wide a brush Mr.Goo:)
The same could be said for the plethora of bowie knives made from forging (again, gross generalization)

and it doesn't carry all of the mythology, culture, romance, and history B.S. with it...

honestly, thats all opinion..and..can also be called marketing. Mythology? come on...anyone can make up a good story-hell, look at Dork ops knives;)
Culture? well, isnt that something to be interpreted by the maker? I make Japanese style knives...should I not be because I'm not japanese or live in Japan?
Culture:the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
Romance? Isn't that up to the person who appreciates it? Sure, we-as makers- can inspire them through our work, but ultimately it's up to the imagination of the buyer (again, unless you want to spin all the mythos and thats marketing)

However, none of them became my favorite knives and were not as much of a pleasure to use as a few of the best examples of the forged blades.... the forged blades had something intangible and mysterious that the stock reduction blades didn't,... call it the "cool factor",... the feel, or the vibe... and the best examples were comparable in terms of "pure performance" to the best stock reduction knives I tested. :)

This is just personal preference, and thats cool with me:) You make forged knives, I expect you to like them better. Alot of your opinions about stock removal is based on your emotions...as well as forged blades. I remeber at Blade one year, a well known folder maker handed a well known ABS guy a bowie. he looked at it, fiddled with it, commented on the balance that it "felt good". His final comment was, "great job forging it" I had to snicker when the maker told him it was made on a rotary platen.

There are some of us stock removal guys who do our own heat treating and experimenting. I really enjoy playing with different hamon patterns, and get surprised at the results. The "coolness" is already in there


It's apples and oranges... not the same.

It just "depends" what you like

brother, you could have just said that from the begining, and added
"one isn't better than the other":):thumbup:
 
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Yeah, it's all totally subjective, and there is a "psychological" aspect to all of it. However, I doubt I'm the only person who feels the way I do about it. Human psychology is a science and a factor... Obviously.

Sure, stock reduction has it's own historic and cultural appeal,... but if you compare that to the history of the forged blade, there's really no competition in that department...

I never said one was definitely "better" than the other.

You asked for my opinion, and that’s what you got! :)

Anyway, I didn't start this thread to get into a debate over stock reduction vs. forging. If you think that was what it is about then I apologize... and maybe you need to go back and re-read what I said with an open mind.

It really had more to do with a strict modern scientific appoach to "bladesmithing" compared a more traditional approach, and striking a balance between the two.
 
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In my strict modern scientific stock reduction work shop, I am always mystified when my Tapmatic armed with a 1/72 tap plows through .160 6l4v ti and does not break time after time after time....talk about striking a balance:cool:.

When I feel the need to be primal I may wear some shorts and flip-flops while grinding and if I really need to hear the primal scream I put on the sound track of "Conan the barbarian" while feeding chunks of ti to the grinder causing wicked sparks through out the shop....I mean my cave ya thats right my cave:D

I really do not try to impose my opinions of whats cool and whats not.....rather spend that time working on acceptance of ones desire to craft a knife however they chose to and truly appreciate it for what it is.

Even science is a mystery to me at times

Cool
Spencer
 
I find bladefarming much more mysterious than stock reduction or bladesmithing... :)

... and I'm not going to apologize for my opinion. :D
 
SAR said:
Even science is a mystery to me at times

Cool
Spencer
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If it isn't mysterious, it isn't science,... it's just spewing old "facts"... can't try and pass that off as science can we? LOL :D

"Science is Truth, don't be fooled by facts."
 
SAR said:
Even science is a mystery to me at times

Cool
Spencer
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Don't be so modest,... That was a true revelation!
... Just might be crazy enough to be true.

Cool! :)

... but the rest of it wasn't very romantic, IMO...
 
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