"The" discussion on clones, homages, and IP theft.

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Other members are better than I at articulating the unethical and dishonest aspect of clones/copies/intellectual property theft.

Still others are better at picking at specifics to try and undermine the (IMO) valid arguments of the first group.

So I can but add my amateur drop into the swirling torrents, and it is this:
I really want a Shirogorov.
I can't afford one.
I do not have a cheap clone instead. Why?
Because I really want a Shirogorov.
 
I was just thinking how wonderful it has been this last few weeks that the IP theft issue has finally been put to rest. Today new ground was broken and the subject has returned. Although I DO enjoy mudslinging, restating the same arguments ad nauseuum does have its limits. I am glad to be a part of the historical record of what (hopefully) is the last thread of this subject. For the record, Ganzo= party foul.
Genuine Kudos for the new angle.
Frank
 
Cursum Perficio said:
Other members are better than I at articulating the unethical and dishonest aspect of clones/copies/intellectual property theft.

Still others are better at picking at specifics to try and undermine the (IMO) valid arguments of the first group.

So I can but add my amateur drop into the swirling torrents, and it is this:
I really want a Shirogorov.
I can't afford one.
I do not have a cheap clone instead. Why?
Because I really want a Shirogorov.
Click to expand...
How ironic. Shirogorov gained their fame from cloning.......
 
We can't do politics in general, and morals tend to lead to politics in a couple posts so we're back to square one.

I think if you want to actually change something this needs to be in feedback and aimed @Spark so he can make the call yet again since its his house not ours.
 
GermanyChris said:
We can't do politics in general, and morals tend to lead to politics in a couple posts so we're back to square one.

I think if you want to actually change something this needs to be in feedback and aimed @Spark so he can make the call yet again since its his house not ours.
Click to expand...

Since Spark owns 1SKS, I'm pretty sure he'll just give this thread the middle finger like any reputable knife dealer would. This thread is just a clean up on aisle 3.
 
Cursum Perficio said:
If so then my lack of in depth knowledge is to blame. I would ask though, did Shiro move past copying others and now produce their own designs?
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Yes they have. Is that good enough for you? It is for many here. Like I said, the line between one person's morals and another's can be fairly fuzzy.

Benchmade ripped off the Spydie hole, but don't anymore.
Sanrenmu makes copies or homages, but also make original designs
Ganzo makes many ripoff knives, but makes some originals.

The line is drawn where you are comfortable. Your morals, not mine.
 
Aldebaran said:
How ironic. Shirogorov gained their fame from cloning.......
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Don't listen to this guy he continues to spew false information no matter how many times someone tells him the truth. He is honestly TROLLING
 
Aldebaran said:
Yes they have. Is that good enough for you? It is for many here. Like I said, the line between one person's morals and another's can be fairly fuzzy.

Benchmade ripped off the Spydie hole, but don't anymore.
Sanrenmu makes copies or homages, but also make original designs
Ganzo makes many ripoff knives, but makes some originals.

The line is drawn where you are comfortable. Your morals, not mine.
Click to expand...

Yes that's good enough for me based on what I know so far. Always open to new input though.
My morals, yes, that was my point.
Maybe I should have said swirling muddy torrents to start with.
 
Mo2 said:
Don't listen to this guy he continues to spew false information no matter how many times someone tells him the truth. He is honestly TROLLING
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You keep saying I am wrong. Please direct me to the correct information. I do not want to be wrong.
 
Well let's see if I can dumb this down for myself.
Where does it begin and end ?
I'm a beginner knife maker, if I see a picture on the web of a Busse SOB and I make a similar knife to the best of my limited abilities is that wrong.
I don't think so.
If a friend of mine digs it and gives me a hundred bucks for the knife he knows I made, did that cross the line?
I don't think so.
If I etched BUSSE on the blade and listed it for sale, should I be skinned and tossed in a fireant pile ?
I think so.
If Frost Cutlery makes a folder with a Spydie hole and other eriely similar features to an Endura with the Frost name on the knife, does that make it a clone ?
I think so but I could be wrong.
If a company in China pumps out a couple thousand fixed blade knives marked Benchmade Contego, do I hope the place burns ?
Yes I do.


All that being said I have slightly more knowledge and am more relatable to firearms and the history of, than I do blades at the moment. John Moses Browning designed the model 1911 for Colt. Over the years dozens of other companies and makers have made their version of a 1911. I do not have a problem with Remington, Ruger, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Kimber or Taurus making, marketing and selling a 1911 with Their name on it.

Making a counterfeit product with another manufacturers name on it with the intent to deceive the buyer is wrong and unacceptable.
 
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I won't buy a clone of a knife, primarily because it's not too hard to 'save up' and buy the real thing. Same as not buying a Norinco handgun and just getting the real thing, be it a P226, 1911, or whatever.

However I am into watches (I used to be an amateur watchmaker of sorts so I can take apart mechanical movements, etc). When a well known Swiss watch manufacturer is charging $10,000+ for a watch and there is a 99% mechanically identical Chinese clone available for $250 then I'm sorry... I will bite the forbidden fruit.

I originally started buying the latest clone watches so that I could inspect them in person under magnification so I would know what to look for when buying genuine 'grey market' watches, as many are clones passed off as the real thing.

I have gotten out of the watch hobby after having kids as ironically I don't have 'time' for it... but along with my genuine watches I have kept a select few clones that I still enjoy wearing. They are impeccable and the attention to detail is absolutely astounding.

Carry on...
 
Aldebaran said:
Yes they have. Is that good enough for you? It is for many here. Like I said, the line between one person's morals and another's can be fairly fuzzy.

Benchmade ripped off the Spydie hole, but don't anymore.
Sanrenmu makes copies or homages, but also make original designs
Ganzo makes many ripoff knives, but makes some originals.

The line is drawn where you are comfortable. Your morals, not mine.
Click to expand...
Bm and spyderco worked that out like honest companies tend to do. What these clone companies like ganzo do is not honest. It is not that hard to tell the difference.
 
In keeping with the original intent of this thread: clones, homages and theft of intellectual property. I’m agin’ ‘em!
 
great video for all to watch.

Aldebaran said:
Yes they have. Is that good enough for you? It is for many here. Like I said, the line between one person's morals and another's can be fairly fuzzy.

Benchmade ripped off the Spydie hole, but don't anymore.
Sanrenmu makes copies or homages, but also make original designs
Ganzo makes many ripoff knives, but makes some originals.

The line is drawn where you are comfortable. Your morals, not mine.
Click to expand...

They didnt rip off the spidie hole. STOP TROLLIng

everything you say is BS. you are just ASSUMING based off of what you see.

Sal worked for Benchmade. they are friends. they worked together. video for you from SAL himself. Sal has said openly this information many times. not sure how it got past you.


here is the information about the Shiro axis lock
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-ganzo-g8012-fixed-blade-review.1516124/page-9#post-17421512

basically they were commissioned to make them only a few and they were expensive to make and so they were very rare. it was also a discontinued model from benchmade. can you tell me how many they made?
 
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In an effort to lighten things without going totally OT, it's a lovely sunny spring day here in NZ, and I'm off outside for a bit to plant some more wee trees along the fence line, with the help of my genuine Spyderco Para2 in M4/CF. Will pop back later and see how this is getting on. Maybe.
 
I think discussing controversial subjects can be beneficial to the community. Yes, they can get heated at times, but I think overall it is healthy. It can and will get tiresome for sure, but overall I think these things need to be argued from time to time.
 
panoz77 said:
Just for curiosity, is the Ontario RAT 3 a copy of an Esee 3 or vice versa? And which one is prohibited from discussion for being a "clone"?
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..... neither, both are legitimate. Ontario and who is now ESEE were originally in a working agreement around the Ontario RAT series and concurrent production of Randall Adventure & Training series of knives, the later became ESEE. They are no longer but there is no disagreement around the concurrent manufacture of the old designs (this is my understanding of it).
 
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