"The" discussion on clones, homages, and IP theft.

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Here is my take on it.

If you post about a clone on an enthusiast forum you deserve what you get. There is no reason to be rude or disrespectful but as knife enthusiasts it is our duty to defend the industry and the good guys in it. I will continue to join in on the pig piles on those who promote clones and I feel as though we should do it until those who support clones finally realize that they do not belong here.

This thread is gonna easily break ten pages and all of it will be crap. Thanks. ;)
 
I love these kinds of thread. Very few people know enough about intellectual property law to know what they don't know about what constitutes IP theft or not.
 
For the people who don't know what they don't know.

Intellectual property theft involves robbing people or companies of their ideas, inventions, and creative expressions—known as “intellectual property”—which can include everything from trade secrets and proprietary products and parts to movies, music, and software.
 
So the op is here to save the forums from clutter and controversy? And give a 1 stop shop to voice your opinion? To which your only rebuttal to other posts is to link your original post? So no voice or debate can happen over a disagreement on another's view of clones? What a waste and clutter this thread is to the forum you know sorta like what the op wants to avoid.
 
I don't really think there's any hard and fast rule when it comes to homages, I think it depends how much it looks or doesn't look like the original knife.
 
Aldebaran said:
You keep saying I am wrong. Please direct me to the correct information. I do not want to be wrong.
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Actually- you should provide the proof as you are the one with the accusation.


The subject of clones, homages and knockoffs comes up alot. Everyone wants to stuff it in their nice neat little packages as an OK thing to do and it couldn't possibly hurt anyone's business. To my dismay, they also want to make the argument that all knives are copies of somebodies IP somewhere.
That's all good..some parts are true to an extent. Let's take an example of one of one of my favorite knives, the Umnumzaan. The blade alone for an element isn't really all that unique. Harpoon blades existed before the Umnumzaan and will continue long after it's inception. In my mind, it's not just the one element; It's the assembly of elements to make a package product. Does that make it alright to have scales so similar that they can't be readily identified from the original with the harpoon blade in tow along with other visually similar elements? By what I am reading from a few here..absolutely!
No- this is not OK. Using brand recognition and appropriation without authorization of packaged design elements = theft
What happens when a company like CRK get's one of these knockoffs for warranty repair? Usually, it starts with an uncomfortable call from CRK to the person that paid full price for this item to tell them they have a fake and it's not covered under warranty. Why did this person pay full price for a fake? Brand recognition and reputation. Now what percentage of people have an issue that never send it in and just assume that it is a POS and sell it? Do they tell everyone of their experience of this "CRK"? Sure they do.
This is one example of how it hurts.. Does this mean it's what you are going to use as a defacto standard for what constitutes IP theft from a mod? No- You shouldn't as the definition is pretty broad and this is only one example.
In most of these cases, I see people referring to clones as "homages".. I did myself earlier in this post.
Here is the definition;

hom·age
ˈ(h)ämij/
noun
  1. special honor or respect shown publicly.
    "they paid homage to the local boy who became president"
    synonyms: respect, honor, reverence, worship, obeisance, admiration, esteem, adulation, acclaim;    More

    • historical
      formal public acknowledgment of feudal allegiance.
      "a man doing homage to his personal lord"
I see no honor or respect in copies. No tribute or credit is being paid to the original creator.
Call it what it really is and stop candy-coating it to make it easier for the masses to swallow.
Just theft of brand recognition and reputation.

Have the discussion, but know that these threads all eventually end the same way; Locked
As far as the posting of pictures of these types of knives? That is up to someone with more mod experience or the site owner because that is a damn deep rabbit hole to go down.
 
Danke42 said:
For the people who don't know what they don't know.

Intellectual property theft involves robbing people or companies of their ideas, inventions, and creative expressions—known as “intellectual property”—which can include everything from trade secrets and proprietary products and parts to movies, music, and software.
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As with many things, the actual law is a great bit more complicated than that soundbite.
 
Most clones get created because the market creates them.

When you go pay x amount for a rare discontinued knife and it stays in demand it creates the market to clone it.

The balisong community sees a lot of it. With benchmade and BRS clones. It happens in video games, music, apparell.

When I was a bartender I provided service whether your clothes are designer or knock off.


I support clones.

Why?

If you're a knife maker, company etc. When I buy your knife I want to see a distinguishable difference from the clone.

A balisong can be $300- $500 it's clone can be $20-70. If that clone makes a indistinguishable clone to the point the company would do a claim warranty on a fake of their design then they deserve it as it proves their is inflation and a monopoly.

Everyone talks about a free market, China's markets are free. No patents, no copyright infringement laws which all favor USA.

This is good old Napster vs Metallica in the supreme court. Guess what even though metallica won, USA doesn't hold jurisdiction on the world and their music is still shared on file sharing sites ever since.

I hear this concept a lot. Where they say they would have not bought the cd anyway if they couldn't pirate it. So to a degree there isnt lost royaltie.

I recently watched a youtube video of a kid with a BRS clone state he wishes they didn't use the BRS logo on the clone and that he could take sandpaper to it. He states it could be used as a tool to help people getting scammed from a fake.

He even states he would have not bought or been able to afford a real one anyway.

Then you have someone like me. Who buys and supports the real thing buts wants to buy a clone to compare. I don't own a clone yet.
 
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needler420 said:
China's markets are free. No patents, no copyright infringement laws which all favor USA.
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Completely false.

Of course, it makes sense that anyone pretending to support clones on any grounds other than "I can't afford to buy the real thing and that's all I care about" would also pretend that there are no patent or copyright laws in China.
 
raistlin65 said:
As with many things, the actual law is a great bit more complicated than that soundbite.
Click to expand...

Please then enlighten this thread with your knowledge. I would like to know more as I'm sure others would also. Seriously not being a smart ass I would like to Hear your take on this since others are only giving a sound bite.
 
I stand corrected. I watched the videos that Mo2 linked, and did some searching on my own again as well. My previous misconception that Benchmade stole the Spydie hole was wrong. I cannot know everything and my previous information has been proven to be wrong. Benchmade licensed the Spydie hole and did no copying at least in the case of the AFCK. I apologize for spreading false information.

I still think Mo2 is not thinking correctly on my stance on things here. That is his problem not mine. I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
 
Seems to me that there are four arguments being made in opposition to the anti-clone position:

1) "I can't afford the real thing and that's all that matters to me." Awesome. Don't expect any respect or support from people with actual character.

2) "I read the Wikipedia article on moral relativism and it says you can't have an opinion. I think." Great. Please realize that while you might find this thought incredibly precious and profound it actually contributes nothing to the debate about cloning and counterfeiting. Which is what we do here. Express our opinions in debates, over and over again until we have thousands of posts. It's a forum, fool.

3) "I think Intellectual Property law is so arcane and beyond the reach of the average human intelligence it might as well be magic." Wonderful. Enjoy being dumb.

4) "Some bullshit argument which masks my true argument which is actually argument#1." Nice. Please realize we all see right through you.

Come at me, bros.
 
To be clear, for the hard of thinking here, I do not condone clones, homages, or IP theft. Anybody who says otherwise is lying or making straw man arguments. My intent was to try and provide a suggestion to help make postings on the forums less full of rants and chaff. I can only hope but that is probably misplaced with the quality of some here who insist on being noisy, trolls, and self righteous. I sometimes have too much hope for humanity.
 
Aldebaran said:
To be clear, for the hard of thinking here, I do not condone clones, homages, or IP theft. Anybody who says otherwise is lying or making straw man arguments. My intent was to try and provide a suggestion to help make postings on the forums less full of rants and chaff. I can only hope but that is probably misplaced with the quality of some here who insist on being noisy, trolls, and self righteous. I sometimes have too much hope for humanity.
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This is a #2.

I'm taking your suggestion on how to repond to posts by referring to other posts I've made elsewhere.
 
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