The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern

Too early to tell what the end results will be but a well known knife designer and myself are working with blacksmith shop to create a Hudson Bay pattern axe that we hope will correct some of these problems. More when I see the first prototype in the next few weeks.
 
Sidehill Gouger said:
Too early to tell what the end results will be but a well known knife designer and myself are working with blacksmith shop to create a Hudson Bay pattern axe that we hope will correct some of these problems. More when I see the first prototype in the next few weeks.
Click to expand...
Please don't tempt me into buying something I don't need or want but 'have to have'.
 
thunderstick said:
Here is an ebay link to a pic of the Craftsman head I have. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-2-1...y-pattern-half-axe-hatchet-head-/331096486061

In my mind this style incorporates some of the best features of the HB and limits the negatives--love that head style.
Click to expand...

That's a nice design. Good compromise.

For what it's worth, this same principle is at play in all axes. There's reason to believe that a Connecticut eye makes a more durable connection than a Dayton eye for the same reasons given above. But there's even more to it all. The wider the bit the more rotational force is applied to the eye. Heel and toe strikes should put more stress on the haft than center-bit strikes. And consider what effect long beards have on the eye. It stands to reason that a heavy strike far down on a long beard is gonna torque the eye some. Lots to think about when you start to apply this theory to axes in general and not just HB's.
 
This was actually bugging me last night but my brain was too dead to quite be able to explain why... Doesn't help that I haven't taken a physics course in ages. It clicked for me today though.

I'm fairly sure the two points you indicate as the fulcrum and load aren't correct and that they're both fulcrum points working at the same time and the load is different areas of the head. The result of the two loads being pushed in opposite directions is that the head rotates in the direction of handle torque:
20140210_220523-1_zps9uz81pfz.jpg


While you're correct that a longer eye puts more distance between the fulcrum and the load, this isn't the main reason it's advantageous. It's mostly that the higher surface contact is reinforcing the fulcrum points by spreading the load out over a greater area. The fulcrum points are after all where all the stress is condensed when force is applied. The greater amount of wood in the eye also just flat out means a stronger lever.
20140210_222636-1_zpsksfjyh6e.jpg



But all this is based around the idea that the handle is the lever and the head is the load. Realistically, the whole axe is one lever and the load we're trying to overcome is a stuck bit. When we yank up the handle, the head rotates around the fulcrum point in the bit. The toe of the bit is pushed against heavy resistance (whatever its stuck in) while the heel portion is freed (just like pulling a nail with the claw of a hammer):
20140210_225141-1-1_zpsdilvhtdp.jpg


It stands to reason that you'd also want to pull down on the handle to release the toe of the bit. Generally if its really stuck in there, you're going to be "pumping the handle" to progressively lower the resistance on either side of the fulcrum point in the bit until there is no resistance to be had and the bit is free. When you do this, the fulcrum points within the eye you mentioned alternate (green fulcrums when you're exerting effort in the white direction):
CrushpointsinHBeye_zps77a6f716.jpg


And then I come to the sort of embarrassing conclusion that I already knew. When faced with the "stuck bit scenario" the answer is generally to "pump the handle" - though now I can add the reasoning: instead of exerting all your effort in one direction and putting high stress on two fulcrums, you're exerting less force in alternating directions, wearing four fulcrums in lesser increments. Pretty much the equivalent of rotating your tires (wearing the eye evenly).
 
Last edited:
Yes, you're correct that both points are working as both fulcrums and loads simultaneously. I was just keeping things simple. I like what you've done with the concept. And yes, prying up and down spreads the load across 4 points instead of 2.

Also as Binalith pointed out the safest way to remove a stuck axe is to knock back and forth on the poll, putting no stress on the haft. Normal use will also put all of the loads you've diagrammed on the haft to some degree.

When we yank up the handle, the head rotates around the fulcrum point in the bit.
Click to expand...

Right, and the rotation causes minute abrasion within the eye. Minimizing the rotation will make the haft last longer. That's where eye ribs come in. They lock down the rotational motion within the eye.
 
Interesting. So that's what the extra lines of metal in the eye were. Ribs to reduce the movement of the axe handle in the eye. Must also be the reason for those Marbles hatchets odd eye making it more difficult to replace the handle.
 
Loosearrow said:
Interesting. So that's what the extra lines of metal in the eye were. Ribs to reduce the movement of the axe handle in the eye. Must also be the reason for those Marbles hatchets odd eye making it more difficult to replace the handle.
Click to expand...

With the Marbles it was to try to make it so you could only buy their replacement handles. :p
 
Square_peg said:
Also as Binalith pointed out the safest way to remove a stuck axe is to knock back and forth on the poll, putting no stress on the haft. Normal use will also put all of the loads you've diagrammed on the haft to some degree.
Click to expand...

Huh - I completely skipped over that. I guess if I had a strong board/stick to chisel at the poll with a mallet, that would be the best solution. I don't think I'd trust my aim with a baton enough to be hitting the bottom of the poll without smacking the shoulder along with it on my smaller-polled axes.

That all said, I don't split enough serious firewood to have dealt with bit sticking personally. I tend to deal with smaller diameter rounds (6-8") when out camping and usually split those length wise or use the twisting technique. The only sticking issues I've really dealt with was early on when I was learning to fell/buck and I've since fixed that by improving my technique and changing over to a more efficient grind (chisel-profile banana grind with just the edge convexed).

Square_peg said:
Right, and the rotation causes minute abrasion within the eye. Minimizing the rotation will make the haft last longer. That's where eye ribs come in. They lock down the rotational motion within the eye.
Click to expand...

Well its also worth noting that every strong point of contact between the handle and eye minimizes rotational wear by distributing the load over more surface area. Really I think having a solid wedge and not over-rasping any spots during hanging is one of the most important factors to lowering abrasion.

Also, I think this is probably the reason I love patterns with lugs (jersey/rockaway/GB) so much - you get the added contact with the wood while still being able to choke up under the eye.
 
This is why I glue my axe heads -- because it creates a complete friction bond in the eye between the wood and steel so the entire circumference resists movement no matter where the pressure points are. I rasp shallow grooves inside the eye (if it does not have the factory ridges) so the glue can embed in the depressions.

This is why I fit the head so it slightly curls the wood on the bottom of the eye as it is being inserted to create a strong pressure point by compressing the wood fibers as tightly as possible. The last 1/4-1/2" I keep cutting the curls off with a knife and tapering the wood above it and keep working it in. When I'm ready for the glue I cut off the last curls. Its hard to remove the handle at this point because its under so much pressure. The glue will work as a lubricant when its reinserted and you end up with the final fresh curl of wood which will contain the gorilla glue when it begins to expand. These curls are removed after the glue is set.

This is why I fit the top wedge so it slightly curls the wood at the ends when it is driven in.

This is why I also glue the wedge into the handle--so the wedge is laminated to the wood handle and works to prevent the end to end slippage of the handle when the axe binds. 24 hrs later after the glue is set I drive in the metal cross wedge. The wedge drives in very hard because everything is so tight its hard to displace the wood--and thats what I want. The intent is that the handle should break before it slips in the eye.

When you get deep abrasions on the handle below the axe head you begin cutting off the fibers of wood that run up into the eye that are resisting slippage and this will make the handle slip more easily or eventually break. I use wraps of black hockey tape to protect the top of the handle on a working axe. The tape can be replaced as necessary, but I want to protect those critical surface fibers running into the eye. On a winged splitting axe or maul I've gone to using contact cement and "stretching" a thin double layer (contact cement between layers) of leather around the handle first and then using the hockey tape over the leather to protect and waterproof it ... because on those designs I can widen the handle without making it wider than the head. On a regular axe I remove all wood flare below the handle so the handle is slimmer than the eye and then I can wrap it with tape and still have it more slender than the head above it. If you have a tight head and a chewed up handle below, the forces in the head start acting on less wood below till it breaks. The gouges will also let moisture up into the wood of the eye and shrinkage will start.

In summary, the hockey tape wrap below the head serves to:
1. absorb abrasions/cutting of the critical surface fibers running into the eye--its the sacrifice layer that gets replaced as necessary
2. protects against over strikes by spreading the impact
3. in the event of handle breakage it may help to keep the handle from flying off

I use black tape so it blends better with a traditional look ...
 
Last edited:
thunderstick said:
This is why I fit the head so it slightly curls the wood on the bottom of the eye as it is being inserted to create a strong pressure point by compressing the wood fibers as tightly as possible. The last 1/4-1/2" I keep cutting the curls off with a knife and tapering the wood above it and keep working it in. When I'm ready for the glue I cut off the last curls. Its hard to remove the handle at this point because its under so much pressure. The glue will work as a lubricant when its reinserted and you end up with the final fresh curl of wood which will contain the gorilla glue when it begins to expand. These curls are removed after the glue is set.

This is why I fit the top wedge so it slightly curls the wood at the ends when it is driven in.

This is why I also glue the wedge into the handle--so the wedge is laminated to the wood handle and works to prevent the end to end slippage of the handle when the axe binds. 24 hrs later after the glue is set I drive in the metal cross wedge. The wedge drives in very hard because everything is so tight its hard to displace the wood--and thats what I want. The intent is that the handle should break before it slips in the eye.
Click to expand...
I never glue anything except for a small dab on the wedge but do agree with you that a real snug-fitted handle is 'good practice'. In a similar regard I don't use softwood wedges either. I suppose I could use 'J-B Weld' or some other hard set epoxy/filler and drive in the wedge before the stuff sets to take up any slack. My concern then though is having difficulty in cleaning out the eye sometime down the road.
 
300Six said:
I never glue anything except for a small dab on the wedge but do agree with you that a real snug-fitted handle is 'good practice'. In a similar regard I don't use softwood wedges either. I suppose I could use 'J-B Weld' or some other hard set epoxy/filler and drive in the wedge before the stuff sets to take up any slack. My concern then though is having difficulty in cleaning out the eye sometime down the road.
Click to expand...

Cleaning out the eye was a bit of concern for me also ... to date I have not had a head come loose when installed as described ... but 2 years ago my son broke a handle that was installed this way. It was not a big deal to drill it out like I always do. Then I used a junk 1/4" chisel to scrape out the thin layer of glue, cleaned things up a bit with a rats-tail file, and then reinstalled another handle. After this I decided to remove a 36" handle from one of my favorite fellers and install a 28" handle for limbing and tight work so I would have a full-size head on a shorter handle. It also came out in the same way. So I continue to install them as described, knowing they can be removed without a lot of difficulty. I primarily use gorilla glue because it expands, grips anything wet or dry, is waterproof, and is not that hard to chisel out later like some of the super epoxys may be.

I also Lacquer seal the end grain to prevent moisture from entering or escaping the wood ...
 
Last edited:
thunderstick said:
This is why I glue my axe heads -- because it creates a complete friction bond in the eye between the wood and steel so the entire circumference resists movement no matter where the pressure points are. I rasp shallow grooves inside the eye (if it does not have the factory ridges) so the glue can embed in the depressions.

This is why I fit the head so it slightly curls the wood on the bottom of the eye as it is being inserted to create a strong pressure point by compressing the wood fibers as tightly as possible. The last 1/4-1/2" I keep cutting the curls off with a knife and tapering the wood above it and keep working it in. When I'm ready for the glue I cut off the last curls. Its hard to remove the handle at this point because its under so much pressure. The glue will work as a lubricant when its reinserted and you end up with the final fresh curl of wood which will contain the gorilla glue when it begins to expand. These curls are removed after the glue is set.

This is why I fit the top wedge so it slightly curls the wood at the ends when it is driven in.

This is why I also glue the wedge into the handle--so the wedge is laminated to the wood handle and works to prevent the end to end slippage of the handle when the axe binds. 24 hrs later after the glue is set I drive in the metal cross wedge. The wedge drives in very hard because everything is so tight its hard to displace the wood--and thats what I want. The intent is that the handle should break before it slips in the eye.

When you get deep abrasions on the handle below the axe head you begin cutting off the fibers of wood that run up into the eye that are resisting slippage and this will make the handle slip more easily or eventually break. I use wraps of black hockey tape to protect the top of the handle on a working axe. The tape can be replaced as necessary, but I want to protect those critical surface fibers running into the eye. On a winged splitting axe or maul I've gone to using contact cement and "stretching" a thin double layer (contact cement between layers) of leather around the handle first and then using the hockey tape over the leather to protect and waterproof it ... because on those designs I can widen the handle without making it wider than the head. On a regular axe I remove all wood flare below the handle so the handle is slimmer than the eye and then I can wrap it with tape and still have it more slender than the head above it. If you have a tight head and a chewed up handle below, the forces in the head start acting on less wood below till it breaks. The gouges will also let moisture up into the wood of the eye and shrinkage will start.

In summary, the hockey tape wrap below the head serves to:
1. absorb abrasions/cutting of the critical surface fibers running into the eye--its the sacrifice layer that gets replaced as necessary
2. protects against over strikes by spreading the impact
3. in the event of handle breakage it may help to keep the handle from flying off

I use black tape so it blends better with a traditional look ...
Click to expand...

My dad like to take a square cut from an old pair of neoprene waders and tape it around the handle just below the head on his maul with electrical tape. His hypothesis is that the spongy material will soak up more of the shock. Since neither material is particularly durable against abrasion he has to redo it about once a year. The handle still looks immaculate though so maybe he's onto something.
 
Hockey tape is pretty good for taking a beating because that is what it was designed for and it sticks in the cold -- maybe he would have better luck using this to hold his neoprene in place. I use the leather as shock absorber also and depend on the tape to protect the leather.
 
thunderstick said:
Hockey tape is pretty good for taking a beating because that is what it was designed for and it sticks in the cold -- maybe he would have better luck using this to hold his neoprene in place. I use the leather as shock absorber also and depend on the tape to protect the leather.
Click to expand...

I'll pitch it to him.
 
I've had issues with longer handles on Hudson Bay heads, including the Best Made Standard Hudson Bay axe made by Council (plan to update my review here). Just not enough metal to grab the handle and hold it tight under hard use.
 
Last edited:
Alright a little help for somebody who doesn't know all that much. What advantage does a hudson bay pattern of axe bit have over a jersey or michigan bit?
 
It's light weight - handier for carving and bushcraft work. The short eye allows you to choke up behind the bit for better control on detailed work. It has almost hatchet-like abilities for wood work. Yet it can still do some light chopping and limbing. It's a good compromise for certain kinds of work. Just don't go crazy chopping with it or the head will loosen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top