The Ethical Woodsman

[Bushman5]

man does not own the earth, nor man cannot govern nature, nor impose bylaws on nature. Man cannot govern man, nor impose bylaws on man when man is governed by god.

I will harvest what i need , when i need it. I do so without leaving a trace that I was there.

living in a rainforest region where stuff grows so fast and and there are billions of stumps from clear cut logging in the 1880s, 1920's, 1960's 80's and even now, provides me with an endless supply of materials, be it firewood, logs, fatwood, etc etc.

I have no guilt nor remorse for my actions.

how many of you have nibbled on blueberries or huckleberries while on walkabout? my fatwood "nibbling" is the same thing.

i chop down alder trees by the hundreds to test axes, knives and to get firefood. The next year there is a thousand more tall alder trees in the same spot, they grow like WEEDS here. I feel no guilt nor remorse.

deal with it.

 

[JSmith88]

I have one main compaint about things I've seen atleast on the AT. Other locals leaving snares out near the trail and not checking them. On 2 occasions now, I have had to go out with my headlmap during the night and try to find where the screaming rabbit and a squirrel were at.

I personally am a strong proponent of quick and clean kill. I have a great disdain for people who would make an animal suffer to obtain pelts or make a profit.

For survival you have to do what you have to do, but I doubt anyone was starving on the AT corridor 15 miles out of Damascus.

I am an avid hunter, and have no problem with harvesting meat and pelts, I just believe doing so with a firearm or bow to be a more humane and efficient way of dispatching an animal.

Of course LNT principles I take very seriously, and agree with many that harvesting regulations on things such as fatwood is unneeded.

I always pack out my trash, and avoid relieving myself anywhere near a water source or uphill from any water source.

 

[Echo4v]

As far as the LNT thing goes, I think I do pretty well. Although I don't strive to keep my fires off the ground or use old fire pits I do only build fires in places that it won't destroy habitation. I've actually found that ( in my area) burning on a bare spot then covering with debris afterwards encourages growth to start in that spot. Down here we have a lot of red clay mud that doesn't have anything growing on it so that's where I burn then I cover with leaves or pine needles when I'm done. I've actually came back to the same spot ( several times) to find grass or saplings started in that spot. Obviously, I'm not talking about weeks later but within months.

When it comes to taking care of wastes I'm a burn it and bury it guy as well. That's what I was taught as a kid and it was reinforced during my time in the Marine Corps. When it comes to harvesting, I've always went by the rule of leave it better than you found it. You can harvest dead wood ( which burns better anyway) and you can harvest plants and fruits in a way that ecourages either regrowth or better growth of the plants you leave.

David

 

[ubuwalker31]

I try to leave as little trace as possible under the circumstances. I try to follow the rules found on The Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics website's principles page. It is a fairly decent guide to wilderness best practices.

That said, some of the LNT practices are hard to follow. Ya gotta remember that it is a guide, not the absolute truth or a legal requirement. For example, I don't pack out my poop or toilet paper, I usually bury it, unless the Park requires it. I will forage lightly in the woods, eating some raspberries or blueberries or other wild foods. I won't forage if I have to dig up the ground or destroy a tree.

Also, LNT does not take into consideration conservation or recreational activities like hunting or fishing. Clearly, both activities have the potential to disturb the wildlife. So, I won't turn over rocks to forage for fishing worms without replacing them carefully. And I won't clear the brush away from a lake shoreline to make it easier for me to fish, since this will hasten erosion.

My big pet peeves:
1) hikers with unleashed dogs.
2) people making lots of noise.
3) RV campers and established campsites campers with no nothing attitudes, who are ignorant about the outdoors.
4) people (PETA freaks) who interfere with lawful game harvesting.
4a) poachers, including people too cheap to buy a freaking fishing license.
5) people who leave non-decomposable garbage on the trail. [If you drop a piece of food, not a biggie. A tin can, thats bad]
6) people who chop down live trees without a really good reason.
7) people who can't be bothered to follow clearly posted Park Rules and Regulations.

 

[Mistwalker]

They just passed a "no cell phone" law around these parts... unless you have a hands-free system, you are subject to a fine for talking on your phone while driving. Why don't they have a no eating/drinking/putting on lipstick/fiddling with your radio law?
Who decides?

Rick

They have the same law here...yet I see people doing it all the time...including the police officers. I like the point you made but I think, even though they are all done all the time here too, those are technically illegal also.

 

[midnight flyer]

My big pet peeves:
1) hikers with unleashed dogs.
2) people making lots of noise.
3) RV campers and established campsites campers with no nothing attitudes, who are ignorant about the outdoors.
4) people (PETA freaks) who interfere with lawful game harvesting.
4a) poachers, including people too cheap to buy a freaking fishing license.
5) people who leave non-decomposable garbage on the trail. [If you drop a piece of food, not a biggie. A tin can, thats bad]
6) people who chop down live trees without a really good reason.
7) people who can't be bothered to follow clearly posted Park Rules and Regulations.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Starting when I was in the scouts in the mid 60s, we were always taught and practiced LNT. It HAS to be done that way down here in S. Texas as we have so little rain, and so much drought that injury to the environment is very long lasting. It takes decades for things to recover fully, if ever.

To bring that home to me, I remember going out to a hunting camp on a buddy's ranch a few years ago. We had not been there in years, and in the limestone clearing where we made our camp, not much had changed. Nothing was growing in the firepit, a little scrubby ground cover had moved up, but that was it. It looked like we had just left a few days ago.

My three biggest peeves:

Rottweilers, Dobermans, Shepherds, or any other large animals running wild while their owners enjoy their stroll, telling everyone in earshot "dont' worry, they don't bite". The dogs are an annoyance. A five pound pile of steaming crap left behind next to the trail by one of their animals just pisses me off.

Music. Even if you pass guys that are responsibly wearing their iPods so I don't have to share their playlist, they wind up yelling at each other so they can hear over their headsets. They can get pretty noisy.

Since when does green wood burn well? Almost any trees in the more frequented parks around here have damage from people tearing out limbs. The Park Rangers at several different parks have told me that they find evidence of some idiot trying to make a fire with green wood. These idiots have actually injured so many trees that they post warnings at the entrance of the park, and some rangers will remind you when you register to leave the trees alone.

For the most part, I would say that they places I go to are well taken care of and well respected.

Personally, I think that the reason so many folks don't act properly out in the parks and natural areas is that they weren't brought up with someone that could/would teach them, and they simply don't understand the ramifications of what they do when they are out. I don't think that many are intentional vandals, and with a little direction I think they would do just fine.

Robert

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

Hello, I guess my post doesn't exactly fit this "Ethical Woodsman" thread, I hope you forgive me but see my point.

The city that I live in has been going through a period of intense building projects. Most of this building has been for "luxury" type apartments, business buildings and shopping areas.

For a little over 10yrs there has been a gradual take over of land alongside the river and canal. Where once there was easy access to the water for fisherman and other users, now there is none. What little is left is now fenced off...

For years and years this area was fished by old men and boys alike. Only a national rod license was needed to fish it, no day tickets were required. Chub, perch, pike, eels, bream even brown trout can be caught there.

Not now though...The whole area on both banks has been built upon and there's no access at all.

The sickening thing is that most of these new buildings are empty. Prices for the "luxury" apartments are 1/2 of what they were 10yrs ago. The boom has turned to bust, or should that be dust?

I know it's wrong but I regularly jump fences and cross private land to fish the city river and canal, sort of guerrilla style fishing!

 

[August West]

I really don't think you have the right to pick and chose which laws you chose to obey, no matter if you think that they make no sense. If the majority of the people disagree with the law, not just one or two fatwood gatherers, then there are legal ways to dispute said law. Open disregard because you don't personally agree with it or because it gets in the way of what you want to do, is selfish and immature. Chris

 

[Bushman5]

I am at peace with my choices and actions. I feel no guilt or remorse.

deal with it.

 

[Rick Marchand]

On restrictions, regulations and law....

My opinions of restrictions and park rules comes from 7 yrs of working with(As a volunteer) and for(As an employee) Parks Canada.... specifically the Species at Risk team and Trail Maintanence Dept. I have seen how and why regulations/rules develope and frankly, I lost alot of faith in the system because of it. IMHO, Bushwise folk can do much more for natural resource management and conservation than following "band-aid" laws and rules. I realize they are directed toward the masses and serve as a filter for ignorant a$$holes... but they also inhibit the "caretakers and teachers" from doing their job of spreading awareness. Mine is a delicate stand, with many holes to fill.... but in my gut, I feel its right.

I look to knowledge for guidance and surround myself with folks who are smarter than me (Doc, kgd, BrianA., Mistwalker, Kevin to name a few) so I can hope to gain a better understanding and try to fill the gaps.

Rick

 

[abo4ster]

LEAVE NO TRACE has its place in high traffic wilderness areas/trails and fragile environments where decomposition takes a long time such as the desert. Unless I am in one of those areas, I do not practice LNT as I am almost always off the trails and therefore will use the resources of an area. My thoughts are more globally in that if I make a fire, build a shelter, poop in a hole, and wipe my ass with a rock, I did less to the environment than the person who bought a tent, stove, fuel, and put their TP in the landfill. We tend to forget those man made materials had to come from somewhere.

However, in using resources such as PLANT HARVESTING, I will only take the fourth plant. The first is left for seed, the second for wildlife, the third for someone else, leaving the fourth for me to harvest. I will also havest the one that makes ecological sense, such a supressed or diseased tree that will then free resources for its nearby cousins.

 

[Raisedby wolves]

A basic flaw in the current wisdom is....Regular citizens DO NOT make the laws.

Politicians and Judges do. If put to a popular vote, I would bet 50% of our current laws would immediately be GONE.

And while I am NOT CONDONING breaking the law, we choose which laws to follow and which ones to break every day of our lives. Speeding, driving without a seat belt, jaywalking, eating blueberries in a National forest are all examples of them.

One of the main problems is not the breaking of the laws, it is the complexity and sheer numbers of them. We didn't need a cell phone law and we don't need one for eating or putting on makeup while driving. It was already covered. It's called CARELESS or RECKLESS DRIVING and people HAVE been given tickets for it. So why did we make a specific law? 2 reasons. First, it gives an LEO a reason to pull you over even if you are driving the speed limit, in your lane and don't have any other infractions. Then they can check for DUI, illegal contraband, etc. The second reason? MONEY, plain and simple. REVENUE. The fines for driving while on a cellphone and driving without a seatbelt are astronomical in many states. It's a money grab.

Cameras? Power and control plain and simple. They prevent nothing and are an intrusion into your privacy.

Now.......

I try to be as low impact as possible, but I also realize that the trail would not be there if we were truly LNT. There is a realistic point inbetween somwhere. For me, anything that can decompose, I feel OK burying. Anything living that I am not going to consume, I don't harm.

For you guys packing out your used TP, why? You do realize it is going to decompose SOMEWHERE, right? I mean I understand we don't want to just leave it laying on top of the ground, but what harm is burying it? It will decompose just as fast as the rest of the "waste".

So, in summary, we should all try to be as legal as possible, ethical in the woods and obedient to our Government and our Law Enforcement Officials, but we are also human beings and have a core set of values and sound judgement that we can use to make decisions on what is, and is not ridiculous.

Peace.

 

[August West]

I am at peace with my choices and actions. I feel no guilt or remorse.

deal with it.

Who gives a rats behind?

Pretty much everyone that willfully ignores rules has no remorse or guilt, that does not justify it. Now we are talking about how we feel about being ethical. If you have some justifications for the actions you take I am more than willing to hear them. But to just say "I don't care what you think, I'm fine with it" doesn't help anyone or add one bit to the discussion. Chris

 

[August West]

A basic flaw in the current wisdom is....Regular citizens DO NOT make the laws.

Politicians and Judges do. If put to a popular vote, I would bet 50% of our current laws would immediately be GONE.

And while I am NOT CONDONING breaking the law, we choose which laws to follow and which ones to break every day of our lives. Speeding, driving without a seat belt, jaywalking, eating blueberries in a National forest are all examples of them.

One of the main problems is not the breaking of the laws, it is the complexity and sheer numbers of them. We didn't need a cell phone law and we don't need one for eating or putting on makeup while driving. It was already covered. It's called CARELESS or RECKLESS DRIVING and people HAVE been given tickets for it. So why did we make a specific law? 2 reasons. First, it gives an LEO a reason to pull you over even if you are driving the speed limit, in your lane and don't have any other infractions. Then they can check for DUI, illegal contraband, etc. The second reason? MONEY, plain and simple. REVENUE. The fines for driving while on a cellphone and driving without a seatbelt are astronomical in many states. It's a money grab.

Cameras? Power and control plain and simple. They prevent nothing and are an intrusion into your privacy.

Now.......

I try to be as low impact as possible, but I also realize that the trail would not be there if we were truly LNT. There is a realistic point inbetween somwhere. For me, anything that can decompose, I feel OK burying. Anything living that I am not going to consume, I don't harm.

For you guys packing out your used TP, why? You do realize it is going to decompose SOMEWHERE, right? I mean I understand we don't want to just leave it laying on top of the ground, but what harm is burying it? It will decompose just as fast as the rest of the "waste".

So, in summary, we should all try to be as legal as possible, ethical in the woods and obedient to our Government and our Law Enforcement Officials, but we are also human beings and have a core set of values and sound judgement that we can use to make decisions on what is, and is not ridiculous.

Peace.

Very good post. :thumbup:

 

[ubuwalker31]

I know it's wrong but I regularly jump fences and cross private land to fish the city river and canal, sort of guerrilla style fishing!

IMHO, so long as they haven't either posted the land as "No Trespassing" or told you not to fish there, I don't see a problem. In the situation you describe, people have an established "right of way" prescriptive easement that they have been using for generations to fish that location.

That said, if you can figure out who owns the property on the riverbank, try to get permission...they might just say yes!

I really don't think you have the right to pick and chose which laws you chose to obey, no matter if you think that they make no sense.

Totally agree. That said, if someone is camping on protected land where harvesting live or down pitchwood is unlawful, you shouldn't do it. That said, we do have an option as citizens to peacefully and civilly disobey laws which are unjust or ancient (only nobility can hunt), are non-scientific and serve no rational public interest (no yodeling on mountaintops at 9am), or violate our civil rights (no blacks in our park). That said, most forestry and game management laws don't fall into this category in the USA, since we do have scientific management and have eliminated most forms of institutionalized racism, so we should be following them.

man does not own the earth, nor man cannot govern nature, nor impose bylaws on nature. Man cannot govern man, nor impose bylaws on man when man is governed by god.

Are you quoting Osama Bin Laden or some anarcho-capitalist? Its hard to tell.

I will harvest what i need , when i need it. I do so without leaving a trace that I was there. living in a rainforest region....

This seems rather selfish and clearly illustrates the "tragedy of the commons" which wilderness ethics seeks to ameliorate. The picture of a decimated rain forest in the entry illustrates the logical conclusion of your thought process.

I have no guilt nor remorse for my actions.

Not experiencing shame, guilt, or remorse for illegal actions is a problem. I always feel a little bad when I trespass, jay walk, or speed or do something that is even a little unlawful.

I guess we have different values. I am a classic liberal democrat who is a conservationist, fisherman, hiker, and camper. Like Teddy Roosevelt. On the other hand, you don't seem to be a conservationist and you don't seem to believe in a democratic government developing forestry and game management regulations.

Did I misinterpret your comment?

 

[HikingMano]

We have to agree ahead of time, that most folks are not going to see eye-to-eye on many of these topics. That is a simple fact. You are probably not going to change anyone, so if you feel like your arguement to going nowhere, "back off" and just be confident in the fact that YOU don't need someone else's approval to justify your own actions.

I we keep it civil, we keep it in W&SS.... you know the routine.:thumbup:

Perhaps this should be re-emphasized.

 

[beef]

For you guys packing out your used TP, why? You do realize it is going to decompose SOMEWHERE, right? I mean I understand we don't want to just leave it laying on top of the ground, but what harm is burying it? It will decompose just as fast as the rest of the "waste".

Peace.

I agree with a fair bit of your post, but TP does take a fair while to break down. Particularly in dry environments. I generally just bury mine, but if people are willing to pack it out, I think that shows a great level of dedication to LNT.
Plus I've seen a fair few piles of toiletpaper dug up by animals, when the rain weathers them, they end up looking like paper mache and lasting forever.

Some parks in dry regions have a pack out your crap policy don't they?

 

[Gaurdian_A1]

How is taking fatwood from a dead rotting stump going to hurt or effect nature?

If bushman is breaking the law in any form i am sure he knows this or doesnt care entirely. I went out for a hike in one of the local parks in my town because i didnt have the time to go out of town to some of my usual spots..i found beer cans, condom wrappers, candybar wrappers, chip bags, firepits and all other kinds of garbage amongst big fir trees and beautiful landscape...Who are any of you to be chewing on bushmans ass for taking fatwood off the ground or a dead stump? There are more important things to be concerned over, no? I picked up the garbage i found ( except the rubber wrappers ) and threw everything out and cleaned up the firepits...annnnd guess what...? While doing so i found some fatwood and took it......as the old saying goes, one right, doesnt change a wrong.

If i am in a park, or out in the wild, i pick the different edible berries i find because they are good to eat and we make delicious pies out of them, there is nothing like saskatoon berry pie, its great!

I believe/practice in not wasting anything you take from the bush, be it fish, game,wild edibles or fatwood etc. I agree with taking what you need from the forrests, but not out of spite for what is governed...But hey, if i see some outstanding fatwood in a park, i am going to take it. Flat out. For that i am guilty, but on the same note, i am guilty for transporting dirt from the park VIA my boots into my truck and going home...Its a double edged sword..without a handle. either way you get cut.

As for the cameras in the parks, by the same law that governs us to not take from those particular parks or forrests, if they really wanted to do it right the cameras would be hidden. Not on a damn post at the head of a trail.. You could just go around the damn thing if you didnt want to be seen.



-Gaurdian_A1

 

[Bushman5]

if people have such an issue with harvesting what the earth and god provides us, they have the option to not harvest it.

but instead of b******* at someone who does harvest a few pieces here and there, save your vitriolic criticism for the logging companies that cut down billions of trees annually, save your vitriolic criticism for the developers who bulldoze park lands and farm land to build yuppie condos, save your vitriolic criticism for the municipalities that fill in the bogs that filter the water and provide habitat for hundreds if not thousands of species.....instead of the guy who picks a few pieces of fatwood from the earth (from trees felled by man, wind and fire)

I'm not changing my ways because a few of you are so offended by the fact i wander thru a park or forest or wherever and pick some fatwood. Either way you slice it, its either going to rot where it sits, or its going to get used by me and end right back in the earth where it came from.

some of you are just going to have to accept that i go for walks and harvest fatwood all over this area. Even our heavily forested parks. The earth has reclaimed itself for millions of years and will reclaim itself for millions more until it burns out in a speck of light. Ya'll act like 10 lbs of fatwood harvested will change the time space continuum.

as for laws, YOU choose who you are governed by. You can be a slave to the system or you can be a free & Sovereign human being. I choose to live as a free & Sovereign human being.

now excuse me, i'm going to the park to harvest more fatwood

EDIT: end of post edited by author, to keep it family friendly.

 

[OldPhysics]

Hmm.

Sounds a little bit like the "caving rules" I was taught and have followed for many decades. In caving, we don't think about this as "ethical caving rules" -- we just consider them the "right way" (or maybe just the "expected way"?) to behave.

They begin with: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints (and darned few of those)."

I'd guess we cavers had to develop such rules to avoid the rapid destruction of a wonderful but very fragile resource.

For those who care, check out the National Speleological Society for more. The other big caving group, the Cave Research Foundation (I think) has remarkably similar rules governing acceptable (ethical?) behavior.