The Ethical Woodsman

The woods change so much from region to region, some places I have no problem cutting down saplings, cutting low level branches, making a (no litter) mess, make big fires etc.

Some places I see "spiderweb" trails where people walk off the main trail so often that there are a bunch of little interwoven trails. those places I don't like hiking or camping.

With some remote or extremely low density population areas, there's not much need in "cleaning up" a campsite (no litter) or leave no trace.

I advocate taking in a trash bag for well walked areas, there are always fools who litter, for paid trails they should start a refund program, carry out a bag of trash and get a partial or full refund, it encourages proper maintenance of the trail and provides incentive for tight wads like me.
 
I'm going to add my reminder here. We can have this kind of a discussion without yelling about god or Dachau. This forum is a reflection of the wilderness we all evolved in. The denser the population or the poorer the habitat, the more critical cooperation skills become. That means cooperating with people and animals and plants you may not even see, but whose lives you affect adversely by clumsiness and greed.

Some differences in behavior do reflect legitimate differences in habitat and even culture. Property is sacrosanct in many places. In England there are laws that support the right of passersby to cut across great estates. In a desert, pulling up flowers or tearing up trails on an ATV cause almost permanent damage. In the woods near me, thorns cut back from a trail regrow in weeks.

Don't yell at each other. Differences in circumstances may account for legitimate differences in behavior. But insulting other members and touching up your posts with vulgar language are not going to be tolerated.
 
i don't understand why folks won't pack out their TP - or burn it.

same with excrement - for one thing - go back to where you have buried your dump, brethren - it is usually still there because it was put under the bacterial level that is only near the surface.

the sun takes care of a lot of the nasties in it too - don't get worked up about it.

i usually poop on a paper towel or bark shingle, and then throw it in a fire or stick it in a freezer ziploc bag and get rid of it at the trail head - you carried it in, why not carry it out? that said - leave your poops - it's good for the soil.

i also clean up camp when i get there because there is invariably a hidden shitter around where folk have buried their poop. burying poop is a bad practice in all aspects, as far as i can tell - i am open to the possibility of exceptions to that rule, but i don't know what they are.

no biggie. burn it.

done.

......

blaring music isn't really great for me as some other brother mentioned, but a smile and handshake with a plead to turn it off at a decent hour has never failed me.

it's better that these rhythm-monkey neanderthals get out to the woods than if they didn't, for all of us.

......

people who get whipped into a lather about trash in the woods crack me up.

natives are the biggest litter bugs on the planet, in the past as well as the present. LNT is noble IMHO - but it is an artifice at best.

most trash has a use, as tinder, bait traps, something.

don't get worked up about it.

burn it if you don't use it, or burn it after you use it, or simply carry it out. i know a brother who survived getting chased through the wild because he had two trash beer bottles on him.


i suggest that we should reframe our thinking, when it is appropriate.


this is a time of much madness and nonsense.

if you react to it, there is just one more bad actor in the mix.

refuse to play.


if a bird can use garbage, i am not going to be above using it.

......

lastly, as a bit of a tracker the whole LNT thing is also humorus to me, but i applaud folks for trying - i like to leave as little trace as possible myself, and expect to continue to do so.

the harvesting of plants in a conservative way has shown concretely that it is better for the plants - Larry Dean Olson did a study on that a long time ago, and that work has been confirmed many times since.

so too, for fuel wood - the forest has never been such a mess until now, with all the do-not-touch rules in effect, because a couple millenia of daily human use is gone, as well as bison, etc.

i don't pretend to have all the answers, or even most of them, but we have to not pretend things are not a lie first, i know that instinctively and through experience;

folks that are eating blue camus and popping a woodchuck for dinner, etc. are criminals only because someone wrote a bill one time, and they had the bribes to back it up through the lawmaking process. result: blue camus and chucks are less common, because their competiton is higher without humans removing some of them.

i think that we should follow all laws that make sense, but it seems like we had plenty of those laws in existence long ago.

Natural Law.


thanks for your consideration.


vec
 
Oh no! there might be dirt and mud & bacteria & moisture stuck to my shoes when i leave the park! quick call the Wilderness Ethics & Morals Gestapo SS and send me to Dachau!

Wow... it's always the same guys, isn't it?

A nice discussion going on, and someone has the sneering audacity to actually compare their bruised feelings to the slaughter of millions of innocent people and the imprisonment of millions more because someone else disagrees with them. Are you kidding me?

What in the world has happened to this place?

Do we need the red faced hysterics and hyperbole? Why can't we just compare opinions like adult men talking over a beer?

I thought this thread was a good subject for discussion and had some potential....

Robert
 
I thought this thread was a good subject for discussion and had some potential....

Robert

It does, what's your input?

Esav pretty much laid it out as far as my opinions go. It's varies by region and by culture.

Quoted from Esav.

"I'm going to add my reminder here. We can have this kind of a discussion without yelling about god or Dachau. This forum is a reflection of the wilderness we all evolved in. The denser the population or the poorer the habitat, the more critical cooperation skills become. That means cooperating with people and animals and plants you may not even see, but whose lives you affect adversely by clumsiness and greed.

Some differences in behavior do reflect legitimate differences in habitat and even culture. Property is sacrosanct in many places. In England there are laws that support the right of passersby to cut across great estates. In a desert, pulling up flowers or tearing up trails on an ATV cause almost permanent damage. In the woods near me, thorns cut back from a trail regrow in weeks.

Don't yell at each other. Differences in circumstances may account for legitimate differences in behavior. But insulting other members and touching up your posts with vulgar language are not going to be tolerated."

Posted by me.
The woods change so much from region to region, some places I have no problem cutting down saplings, cutting low level branches, making a (no litter) mess, make big fires etc.

Some places I see "spiderweb" trails where people walk off the main trail so often that there are a bunch of little interwoven trails. those places I don't like hiking or camping.

With some remote or extremely low density population areas, there's not much need in "cleaning up" a campsite (no litter) or leave no trace.

I advocate taking in a trash bag for well walked areas, there are always fools who litter, for paid trails they should start a refund program, carry out a bag of trash and get a partial or full refund, it encourages proper maintenance of the trail and provides incentive for tight wads like me.
 
We can have this kind of a discussion without yelling about god or Dachau....But insulting other members and touching up your posts with vulgar language are not going to be tolerated.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing wrong with being critical or questioning of another poster's wilderness ethics, so long as you don't insult, name call or resort to Reductio ad Hitlerum arguments.

Of course, talking about ethics is difficult because questioning someone else's ethics often seems like a personal attack -- ethics are who we are and what we value -- and telling someone that their ethics "seem selfish" or that not feeling empathy (eg the feeling of shame, guilt, or remorse) for an action that society at large condemns is an ethical failing -- is NOT a personal attack -- it is a criticism of the underlying ethic of 18th and 19th C. woodsmanship that some people still practice. I am not criticizing the person as a human being, only their behavior or ideas or misconceptions.

That said...I see the underlying politics as fair game in an ethics discussion because our combined ethics are the basis of our government and our law. Our laws provide the minimum ethical behavior for all of us. If an undisputed law prohibits the taking of turkeys without a license, and with only certain weapons, during a specified hunting season, we should follow that law. Whether we stalk it or shoot it from a tree or practice fair chase is optional depending on the regs, but is an important ethical choice nonetheless.

So, with no further ado...

A basic flaw in the current wisdom is....Regular citizens DO NOT make the laws....Politicians and Judges do.

Why yes, yes they do.

Our freely, fairly, and democratically elected representatives make laws which govern us. The Executive makes sure that they are obeyed. And Judges make the hard calls during disputes between parties when they argue about the facts of what happened. And, incidentally, interpret vaguely written laws and the confusing words that laws use. And Agencies are legally delegated quasi-executive, legislative and judicial powers to micromanage the environment and other areas.

If this system is a "basic flaw", a supermajority of us need to get together and re-write our social contract (the constitution).
---
Also, in an ethics discussion, it is appropriate to discuss factual errors.

Things like "Leave the camp site better than you found it." Are not LNT ideals. You do things like burn in a fire ring and leave it there.

Not true, at least according to the LNT I've learned. The best place to build a fire is within an existing fire ring in a well-placed campsite.

Hope that was well-balanced and reasonable. :-)
 
Lets pause for a moment and recenter.

We're all in here because we are interested in primitive skills/woodslore/bushcraft/survival skills.

We like fatwood

We like to make fires

We like to build shelters

We like to carve spoons

And by damned we like to use knives!:D

By and by we all, to varying extents, use materials found in nature.

That being said I'll echo other folks sentiments in that we all don't live in the same environment and trying to transpose "woods values" from one region to another without taking local factors into consideration is a mistake.

As for me, I do my best to follow rules and regulations of society when they seem reasonable and warranted. I try my best to minimize my impact on the woods. I harvest and use materials where legal and ethical to do so. And most importantly of all I try to set a good example for others.:thumbup:

Brandon
 
I know I'm a little late on this thought but....

One thing that really fries my ham is that I'll sometimes have people complain about me making a small fire, and therefor a small fire scar, on the side of a trail where there was no fire pit to make my bullion or heat my soup when it's cold. They say I should just bring a bottle of water and an energy bar and be happy. But...even if I didn't cover my spot with dirt my small fire scar is gone after the next rain or two. I keep finding their damned water bottles for years.
 
reductio ad Hitlerum huh.Godwin's Law ;-)


"There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."

"Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions".
 
I think more people should just mind their own business and not preach their holier than thou wilderness ethics and morals to others.
 
Okay guys...

The whole purpose of this thread was to simply STATE your opinions on wilderness ethics. There is no need to defend yourself. This was not created for or about any one person. Please stop taking it personally. If you have said your piece, let people say their's.

This is not a debate... its a soapbox... spill your guts and step down. You shouldn't be quoting people and picking apart posts. That is not the intent.

Any well thought out opinion should be able to stand on its own legs without resorting to personal attacks.

Rick
 
Do you pack-out used toilet paper? Or, do you just bury it? :p

Yes, I pack it out. So many campsites and trails, and even off trail summits and riverside spots where there's toilet paper that someone "buried" that's now in my face...

Kinda gross to pack it out, but you get used to it.
 
There have been some very very good posts already but I would like to comment from an environmentalists experience and both that of a hiker and some one that loves the bush.

Taking vegetation from a specific area can be critical depending if it is a biodiversity hot spot or not. For example. Hiking on Table mountain it is illegal to harvest ANY plant material due to the biodiversity being classified as a critical endangered Fynbos (fine bush) biome. It really looks like scrubs, but it is important and if we do not look after it no one will. One can be fined something like $3500 for removal of these plants and it is proposed for many other areas here.

Now if I am on a hiking trail or on the farm where the ecosystem is not that endangered it is not that big of impact considering that the ecosystem is in good condition. Ecosystems can have high resilience to shock or high recovery after a shock, but it depends on many factors.

I think this is important, at least for me: Know the areas limits (consult biodiversity institutes and environmentalists if you will) and know if what you are doing is having an impact, no matter how big or small the action. There are ecosystems so minute they can fit on your eye but they form part of a much bigger ecosystem. Nothing is in isolation and everything is interrelated. If you do it once and 200 people follow the same logic imagine the consequences? one tin can takes 50years to go to waste. Plastic is terrible. Try and take paper as much as possible. If it rains paper is the only material that breaks up easily and goes back to earth, yet it is still better to recycle.

If we do not watch our actions and preserve the wilderness then there will be nothing left for our children. That is why I feel we who are woodsmen or bushcraft enthusiasts should be ethical to the utmost and lead by example.
 
Wow. A lot of disparate views on this subject — far more than I would have thought, since we all love the woods. Maybe that’s the problem, though: we all love the woods in different ways, or we were taught differently.

When I was young, several eons ago, the prevailing thought was to go into the woods with a ton of equipment ( big axes, saws, etc.), clear a space for a campsite, cut down trees to build large, sturdy shelters and roaring fires, and shoot anything you fancied for food — there was plenty of everything, so why not? Well, there really wasn’t plenty of everything, but that was The Woodsman’s Way, back then. A lot of people practiced that way of being out in the woods, because they didn’t know any better. That thinking came out of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s and the “if it was good enough for Grandpaw, it’s good enough for me” school of thought... or thoughtlessness.

Skip ahead to to today where we have people who think that nothing should ever be touched. One shouldn’t even bring a knife into the woods, because — heaven forbid — one might be tempted to actually cut something. Everything needed should be carried in, using nothing from nature: fire, water — everything — should be provided by the latest high-tech gear. They would prefer that your feet don’t even touch the ground as you travel, lest you disturb a delicate ecosystem. These people would prefer that you don’t poop, either.

I’m somewhere in between. I try not to disrupt the balance out there, because I want it to last, and I want my fellow woods lovers to be able to enjoy the same woods I enjoy. I like to leave nature the way I found it, as much as I can. Well, as much as I can within reason, that is. I don’t believe in cutting green wood for poles to make shelters, for instance. At least in my area, that is, because it takes forever for most of them to grow back. I will, however, gather deadwood for a number of purposes. C’mon — it’s already dead, provides fuel for my fire, and cleans up the forest, too. As I walk along I often gather things like nettle leaves for din-din. When I’m stopped I’ll grab pine needles for tea. These things don’t hurt the forest, nor even the plant that I harvest them from, and grow back quickly.

I’m not big on huge, roaring fires (loved them when I was a kid, though). Nowadays, most of my fires are pretty small — what someone called “a hat full of fire” — and are mostly for cooking. Living in Southern California, we’re really, really careful about fires: it’s dry out here.

All in all, I believe in using some common sense. Be good to Mother Nature, and don’t leave scars on her. Think about what you’re doing, about what’s the right thing to do. Ask yourself if what you’re doing is going to leave a scar on Mom? If it is, then don’t do it. If it’s not, then go ahead (within reason). If you need a little vegetation that’s abundant, and grows back quickly, for the pot, then why not grab some? But if it’s the rare, endangered Unobtanium Lilly that only grows on one spot on Earth, then leave it alone. Eat some Pine needles instead.

Some have said that what they take doesn’t matter — they’re only one person, so how much harm could it cause? Well, it probably wouldn’t cause that much harm... if they were the only person doing it. Multiply that by hundreds, if not thousands, of people doing the same thing though and, well, you do have a problem, and it is causing harm.

I’m just saying that Mother nature is pretty special, and I have a fondness for the old gal, so I try to think about what I’m doing to her before i do it.
 
I think more people should just mind their own business and not preach their holier than thou wilderness ethics and morals to others.

On the surface, this sounds good. The problem is that in an era of seriously shrinking wilderness what others do does impact the people around them. So, arguably, I should not preach to an ATV rider about riding off road in the desert wilderness. However, they are disturbing plants, animals, and me, often in an irreversible way, whether I preach or not. At what point do we get to have a conversation about that?
 
On the surface, this sounds good. The problem is that in an era of seriously shrinking wilderness what others do does impact the people around them. So, arguably, I should not preach to an ATV rider about riding off road in the desert wilderness. However, they are disturbing plants, animals, and me, often in an irreversible way, whether I preach or not. At what point do we get to have a conversation about that?
We are rapidly reaching the point where we will not be allowed to gambol in the Bush . The enviro......dare I say........environazis, the conservationists, the ethicists, the protectors of gaia, you get the picture, will get laws passed by politicians that will forbid the average Joe from entering the woods.
Already in my area, lands are purchased by this commission or that, and removed from the list of places you can hike or camp.
All in the name of 'sustainability', 'environmentalism', to protect sensitive ecology, or to save some marginal species of one sort or another from joining the hundreds of millions of other species that have gone belly up.

Did ya like Avatar? Hope so, 'cause the way things are going, thats going to be the way you will be allowed to commune with nature in the future.
 
Okay guys...

The whole purpose of this thread was to simply STATE your opinions on wilderness ethics. There is no need to defend yourself. This was not created for or about any one person. Please stop taking it personally. If you have said your piece, let people say their's.

This is not a debate... its a soapbox... spill your guts and step down. You shouldn't be quoting people and picking apart posts. That is not the intent.

Any well thought out opinion should be able to stand on its own legs without resorting to personal attacks.

Rick
Ethics is the key word.
You can tell the people who know what the word means and those that don't by there posts.

The people that don't usually find some extreme position they don't agree with to justify their unethical behavior.

Ethics (also known as moral philosophy) is a branch of philosophy which seeks to address questions about morality; that is, about concepts such as good and bad, right and wrong, justice, and virtue.
 
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