The Ethical Woodsman

On the circumventing of laws/regulations...

I have no problem with this, and do it often myself in certain situations. However, one must be prepared to deal with the consequences if discovered. Don't do something you know you're not supposed to and then blame someone else for making a "stupid" law once you're caught. Live with the consequences of your actions.

For example, I have a concealed carry permit in the State of Florida and I exercise the right often. If I travel to another state where the permit is not recognized, my weapon will STILL be on my person, depending on the situation. I would rather be punished for unlawful possession of a firearm than be killed for accidentally walking up on a rural grow operation and not be able to defend myself.
 
i think the one thing we can all agree on is that we're not all going to agree.

personally, most of the outdoors stuff i do is bowhunting done on private property. i live out in the bush, not in a city. so for me to go out camping or hiking or hunting i'm generally the only one there.

that said, i'm on a friends land. so i'll do what he tells me i'm allowed to do.

for example, most of the properties i visit the cocky (aussie term for farmer) will ask me to leave the feral goats alone because once or twice a year they'll round 'em all up and sell them.

fine and dandy to me. that still leaves pigs, cats, rabbits, foxes and dogs on the Fair Game list and there's plenty of them to keep me amused.

now, some things go without saying. like i'll take all my rubbish back out with me when i leave. i really hate going down to the river and finding big piles of beer bottles and the like.

on the issue of the cameras along hiking trails: i dislike the concept. i feel they serve little to no deterrent purpose. anyone planning any nefarious deeds in such an area is going to scout them out in advance anyways and they can be rendered useless in the short term by the cunning use of that deadly terrorist weapon: a can of spraypaint.

i would have less issues if authorities would agree to delete all pictures within a certain, brief, timeframe (say inside 7 days, 48 hours preffered) if no incidents are reported. but keeping the pictures in perpetuity strikes me as a little too Orwellian. i just dislike the very idea of them in that kind of setting and feel they are a waste of taxpayers money. surveillance cameras on subways and in shops on the other hand, have proven themselves to be at least semi useful. on occasion. sometimes.

when it comes to taking things like fatwood out of a national park type area, i think that's best left to the judgement of the individual. if you are in a region where the woods are healthy and there's plenty around, it's up to your own conscience. if the area is poor or has been damaged lately (or has had ravenous hoards of fatwood nutters go through the area), i would expect any woodsman with any respect for the land to behave appropriatly and leave things alone

in any case, if you're going to remove fatwood or whatever from a public forest where park by-laws and what have you exist: be discrete.

take only the bare minimum that you need and generally keep your mouth shut about it.
 
Ethics by any other name (or local) remain the same. Well, at least they do for any given person. The next guy's idea of what is ethical may well vary.
Then you are faced with the choice of just moving along, and letting each do what he wants, or you can bust his chops. Literally or figuratively. :D

Simple rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Hey Absolutindian, I live in G'ville also
 
Well, I don't live by LNT rules.
I do tend to live by BSA rules, and I'm kinda wondering when they became LNT -- as I was in well after the 60's.

Things like "Leave the camp site better than you found it." Are not LNT ideals. You do things like burn in a fire ring and leave it there. Purpose being so someone else can use it and not make another. You leave a woodpile by the fire ring. So others have some to use, and hopefully won't go limbing any tree they run across. Pack out garbage, etc.

IMO this is a better way to go than LNT. LNT seems to be a made up concept by those who believe in such myths as the "noble savage", or that the earth is better off without the human race.

Leaving established campsite probably does less damage than LNT, because people have an established place, and those too lazy to make a proper campsite, will just use the established one, rather than carve a new one out of the wilderness. So this leaves established base camps, and leave the "natural world" around it untouched.

Some things depend on your local ecosystem. In mine, I'll burn all the deadfall, leaf litter and such that I can. It's a fire hazard. We have heavy wind and rain storms, and you often have trees newly felled by "mother" (more like evil stepmother) nature since the last time you were there. I'll also cut down living trees. We get plenty that have some sort of blight or fungus infection, or were heavily damaged by storms. Still alive, but weak and using up resources the other trees need. Cut down the sick ones, and the others remain strong and healthy. It's not LNT, but it is good forestry.

As for harvesting fatwood. . .the guy took it from a stump, a dead stump! He did no harm, get over it.
 
Bushman5 said:
now excuse me, i'm going to the park to harvest more fatwood, so i can burn it tonight. In fact i might harvest some pine needles for tea, and some salal leaves. Might even rip up some cedar roots for cordage. Oh no! there might be dirt and mud & bacteria & moisture stuck to my shoes when i leave the park! quick call the Wilderness Ethics & Morals Gestapo SS and send me to Dachau!
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LOL, you liked the part about stealing dirt on your shoes hey? Post some pics of what you get while you're out.
 
There is a sign at the National Park that I frequent. It asks not to remove the driftwood from the beaches. They go on to explain that there is an endangered species of Skink that seeks shelter under the larger logs. I respect that and have no problem avoiding it. Sometimes removing even dead wood can destroy habitat for animals and insects. You have to consider many factors when harvesting vegitation, live or dead. I still believe it can be done with respect and understanding.

Rick
 
Things aren't like they used to be 100 , 50 , or even 20 years ago. There's more people than ever exploring the back country , parks , nature trails , etc. ranging from the highly experienced , ethical outdoorsman , to the complete non-caring ignorant and destructive S.O.B. there is. With all these people in the outdoors , you're going to get all types. It's the bad ones that THEY end up making rules , regulations , signs , laws , and restrictions for. Let's face it ; there's a lot of lack of common sense out there , not to mention even lack of experience. Look at all the yo-yo's the SAR guys have to rescue every year , even though all the information and warnings are right in front of them.

When I go in the bush or even a campsite , I practice LNT. It even helps you find things you may have dropped during your stay there. I spend at least half an hour "sterilizing" my campsite , and making sure my fire is out. I even go as far as picking up other peoples crap. I just don't get how people can be so inconsiderate.

Not trying to make this a whine and cheese thing , but the number one thing that chokes me is unnessesary noise. Generators , radios, cell phones , poorly trained dogs that don't stop barking , etc. etc... That's probably the number one reason I go to the woods: Peace and quiet from noise pollution. I just want to hear birds , wind through the trees , crickets , frogs , critters doin' they're thing . I have to go pretty far aways to get away from other people and enjoy " bush time ." I want it to be worthwhile , or else I might as well save the gas and camp in my own backyard. I've had a few trips ruined by careless and inconsiderate people.
 
Bushman5 said:
nature is not a museum. Its a general store.
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That you steal from. You and your god that tells you it's all right, whatever happened to take what you need. I have seen your posts with huge amounts of fatwood burning for no reason other than your amusement, then we find out you stole it from a public park. How do expect people to react, or are you just trolling, if so it worked. In your threads you are burning, for the hell of it, more fatwood than I use in an entire year, why? Because you can?

It's people like you that give the rest of us a bad name and get crazy laws passed because you don't believe in living with nature you believe it is a free store to take what you want when you want, to hell with everyone else. I am officially through with this thread. Chris
 
Bushman5 said:
some of you are just going to have to accept that i go for walks and harvest fatwood all over this area. Even our heavily forested parks. The earth has reclaimed itself for millions of years and will reclaim itself for millions more until it burns out in a speck of light. Ya'll act like 10 lbs of fatwood harvested will change the time space continuum.
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Dude, no one was that interested in what you do - chill out!

You have been searching for the wrong 'fat' for too long.
Here is what you should be looking for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D99n9f3vU4
 
Heck, why don't we just put up a glass partition on each side of the trail so you can only look and not interact with the area.

Use it responsibly, but USE IT!

I'm with Bushman on this one.

What's next, we have to drag a soft blanket behind us to cover our footprints and tissues to sop up a bead of sweat if it falls on the trail?

Really. Carrying your crap out. Jeesh. I'm gonna stay home before I do that.

I am going to have to invoke the testosterone rule at this point. I am too much of a man to go all sissy and not cut off a hunk of fatwood for a fire or feel bad about digging a hole and crapping in it.

Grow some ba!!s men!
 
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This thread reminds me of a three day trip I took with a buddy and his friend from Cleveland (I should have known that was a bad sign).
This dude acted like he was Bear Grylls because he had been there a day before us (Kentucky Red River Gorge). He THEN kept trying to get us to camp in areas that had been roped off to allow the growth to return and were clearly posted by rangers. He talked on his phone as loud as hell for over an hour once we DID find a camp. He stomped all through the woods, made more noise than a bison, pretended he knew where we were and took us on a wild goose chase for 4 hours ("10 more minutes!, I promise"). he cost us at least one whole day of real exploring with his buffoonery (now thats a good word).
I put him in his place more than once, and neither my buddy or I will be camping with him again.
These kind of idiots are everywhere.
Everyone of us that can help by NOT acting like this, are at least keeping the score even for nature....
I do agree with the one post above that touches on keeping the camp site usable. Less campsites created = more untouched nature...

The rest of this thread seems to be hijacked by arguments about God and absolutes...
Both of which have led to most of our problems, both in the woods, and out.
 
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Nature is neither a museum nor a general store. Shoot, people.

Just enjoy it respectfully and responsibly, and with an eye to preservation. To my mind, that leaves room for plenty of activities.

Both the 'touch absolutely nothing!' and the 'I'll do what I damn well please' positions are extreme, and sanity lies somewhere between them.

Best,

- Mike
 
Bushman5 said:
nature is not a museum. Its a general store.
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*sigh*

imho: take only what you need, leave nothing but footprints and the occasional fire hole.

i'm not going to carry out my excrement and i'll toss toilet paper into the fire (or bury it). i will carry out pretty much everything else i take with me.

personally, i wouldn't take a 10lb lump of fatwood out of a forest. i'd take a 1lb lump and when that's all gone, i'd get another 1lb lump.

if there's plenty of it around, i feel no need to grab a years supply all in one go.

if i'm out in the woods and want to build a fire, i'll collect some wood and build a fire (taking into account prevailing bushfire conditions of course, i do live in Australia and such things are important).

ultimatly: it's YOUR decision. what to take and what to leave is up to each individual.

i'm not going to condemn someone for their choices as i have no right to do so.

but i won't applaude them either, and that is my right.
 
Magnussen said:
Wilderness politics!!

t. You are probably not going to change anyone, so if you feel like your arguement to going nowhere, "back off" and just be confident in the fact that YOU don't need someone else's approval to justify your own actions.

If we keep it civil, we keep it in W&SS.... you know the routine.:thumbup:

Rick
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please keep on post to the original aim of the thread.
 
It IS possible to state your opinion on a topic without stomping on someone else's. Try and curb the insults guys... please.
 
don't want to dwell too much on fatwood, but I'd make a wild guess and say that "harvesting" fatwood would be unlawful in just a small handful of places. and in those few places I can't imagine anyone getting too overly concerned about someone taking a little bit for a fire kit- so IMO it's much to do about nothing

I do so see one potential problem w/ purposely ignoring laws, it's the old slippery slope- it often starts w/ "geez it's just a few minutes after shooting hours and the mallards are really coming in- hey what's a couple of minutes?" ----> "geez scattering a little corn around isn't going to hurt anything" ---->"geez the mallards are thick this year, an extra drake isn't going to make a big difference" ----> "seasons and bag limits are for all the other schmoes"

doesn't happen to everyone, but unfortunately happens a heck of lot more than you'd think :(
 
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