The first secret project -- the BirGorkhka Everest katana. Pix.

I hate to raise a dissenting voice here, but...

I just posted a few comments about the Kris Cutlery katanas on the general forum in the thread there about the proposed HI katana. I concluded by saying -


"Greatly as I admire HI products (and the quality of the HI pieces I own is exceptional) I would be inclined to doubt whether they'll be able to make a significantly better katana than KC, let alone one that represents such value for money.

Personally, I'd prefer not to see HI and KC, my two favorite cutlers, competing directly for the katana market. I feel that HI should continue to develope its world-beating range of khukuris, and maybe expand into the sword market by offering items that complement, rarher than compete with, the KC range; eg traditional Nepalese and Indian styles such as the tulwar, the katar; maybe even one day the 'ultimate sword', the Persian yataghan. Further or in the alternative, I'm sure that HI could profitably turn its attention to producing more high-range khukuris in the spirit of their exquisite new kothimoda."

This is, of course, meant to be my personal opinion and nothing more; it's not my place to suggest how Bill runs his business, or how you guys spend your money. From what I've seen in this thread, the HI katana is a lovely-looking sword and I have no doubt it'll be vastly superior to the Paul Chen junk that the major resellers are marketing.

Consider, however, that Kris Cutlery have for some time been quietly marketing some extremely fine basic, practical katanas, and haven't really been able to take much in the way of market share away from either Chen or the purveyors of shiny stainless-steel trash; I have misgivings about HI's chances of doing so, in a market where advertising hype counts for rather more than actual quality, and where HI would be up against the formidable marketing resources of the big Spanish and Indian factories whose products, though frequently downright shoddy, dominate the US sword trade.

In other words, I wouldn't like to see HI getting burned by trying to compete in a market that's already overcrowded, and where at least one competitor is already filling the slot that HI is aiming at - the honest, value-for-money working blade.

When you're the best in the world at something (eg making khuks), doesn't it make sense to stick with what you excel at?
 
Tom, I'd agree except for one thing:

I believe that the *original* Japanese-type grip construction was marginal. It worked because of careful hand-fitting and good quality wood.

Makers such as Clark, Graham and others can duplicate the performance of an original, but only with equivelent hand-fitting of the grip structure.

There's numerous reports of Chens suffering total grip failure.

I'm concerned that no original-type grip assembled under factory conditions is going to be truly reliable. Cecil can take his best shot, but it's tricky.

HI isn't even trying a traditional grip. They're using something mechanically derived from a Khukuri although the parentage won't be obvious (thank god). They're using a long tapered stick tang hard-anchored to the pommel, the same thing a hard-pounding monstrosity like the 20" Ang Khola uses.

It's not going to come apart. There's no wooden pin to rot/snap and send the blade flying across a Dojo - which has happened.

Anyways...that's why I think HI is well-situated to do a modest-budget Katana. I don't think it'll directly compete with the new KC high-end product; if somebody wants original looks, that new KC sounds great. But the HI should be Gorilla-strong at the grip and it's possible the kamis can do something really spectacular on the heat-treat.

In particular, I'm talking to Bill about hardening the spine peak to a point a bit above mid-way between the edge and core, for strength in blocking an incoming edge.

So far as I'm aware, nothing else in the sub-$1,000 range has a hardened spine.

Jim
 
Jim -

I agree wholeheartedly that the proposed grip arrangement for the HI kat is a substantial improvement on the traditional design (personally, I'd go the whole way and opt for a full tang with rivetted scales; but the HI khuk tangs have proved their worth - I'd rather have them than the partial-tang-and-bamboo-pin arrangement any day)

So, yes; the HI kat will include at least one extremely intelligent and practical modification to the original design. The devil of it is, you may well lose as many customers because of it (those who say 'Cool, but I want a replica of a traditional katana') as you'll gain because of it.

Also (here comes more heresy - please don't shoot!) it seems to me to be sadly true that these days, inventing a better mousetrap doesn't necessarily mean the world will beat a path to your door (more likely, invent a better mousetrap and the Animal Rights crazies will firebomb your home... But I digress). There's no point making an improved kat if it's going to waste its sweetness on the desert air.

My suspicion is that the HI kat will sell like hot cakes to HIKV victims and the rest of us who've been let in on the well-guarded secret of Himalayan Imports... But the chances of making a substantial impact on the mass market without costly investment in promotion and marketing are questionable.

I don't think I'll be buying one myself; not because it isn't a superb product, but because I've already got enough Japanese type swords, original and repro, and I'm entirely satisfied with all of them (even the late wartime gunto that needs a crane to lift..). I'd far rather use the money to buy the things I can't get anywhere else - namely, superb khukuris, and other traditional Nepalese blades.

Your mileage may vary. In fact, I sincerely hope it does, because if HI goes ahead with this project, naturally I want them to succeed. That said, it does no harm to play devil's advocate at the start of a project, just in case points arise in discussion that Bill and the guys may perhaps have overlooked.

I'm only raising these points because I'd hate for Bill and the kamis to put in a lot of time, effort and money on a project that may not meet with the recognition they expected or its merits deserve.
 
Tom, the good news is there's no "special tooling" or other costs involved in doing this. A bit of time involved in R&D, but nothing too crazy.

If HI only sells a dozen a year it's no big loss. I think they'll do considerably better than that but again, there's no need for them to "own the market" or throw Paul Chen (or Cecil at KC) out of the Katana biz.

In the sub-$1000 range I don't think the market is anywhere near "overcrowded"...especially not for something that will hold together under a heavy practice schedule or whatever.

Jim
 
Nice Uncle!
-How about a guardless, one-piece handleslab version with a radiused tang-end with a 1/2" hole in the end. I'd love to wrap this Katana. (remember the picture of my wrapping-work I sent awhile back?) No worries of handle failure due to one-piece/resined construction. And while I'm at it, how about a khukuri-style sheath with Karda/Chakma? A kit version would be awesome!

------------------
"Blessed is the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle..." excerpted from Psalms 144.

[This message has been edited by Redleg (edited 02-26-2000).]
 
Redleg, we need to keep the number of different grip types as LOW as possible.

Preferrably one
smile.gif
.

Here's my concept:

12" grip similar to the one shown, including finger grooves. No guard-disk at the pommel, strong Tsuba of traditional size.

Here's the good news: that one grip can be modified. It can be shortened down to 9" or so with simple tools. Better yet, you could fill in the finger grooves with wood putty, wrap the whole grip in rayskin and do a traditional cord-wrap if that's your thing.

Trying to specify a pile of different options is DIFFICULT because of distance and language barriers. There's too many ways an order could go wrong and it would drive Bill nuts having to deal with the aftermath.

So a better idea is to get one good setup and then understand what mods are available back stateside.

Jim
 
Thanks, Jim. We will make a decision after the testing of the two prototypes and suggestions for improving them. That's the time to make the final call. I think perhaps the 12 inch tang and hande is the best option and we will offer a blade only option for those who want to customize the handle to their own taste. Terry and/or Yvsa can do great custom handles.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
Tom Holt,
I think you're missing a point here, HI isn't in the business of compeating for the mass market. They just don't have the manpower, nor do they use mass production techniques. Like Jim said, a dozen a year or even two or three would work, because there really isn't a problem with an over stocked inventory. Demand for HI products exceeds available stock. The swords will never be a BIG seller, but they'll be there for them that wants em.
Bill, I sure hope that I haven't talked out of turn on this, but it seems to be part of the history and philosophy of Himalayan Imports.
Dan
 
Nobody has talked out of turn, Dan, especially you. And, your opinion is not only appreciated by me but also respected.

BirGorkha, equipped as it is, is as close to mass production as it will ever be and that ain't very damned close.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
OK, sounds like my concerns were groundless. As long as the aim is not to try and compete for the mass market or to gear up for mass production (with the inevitable associated costs risk), but to continue manufacturing and selling in HI's traditional market in the usual way, I can't see any problems; I'd somehow gotten the idea that this project was intended to spearhead a scaling-up.

As for the HI katana itself; as I said before, it looks like a fine product and I hope it sells well
 
Uncle,

Just wanted to chime in and say that I can't wait until this katana is perfected---I'll be on the wait-list as soon as its ready. A katana made by HI kamis, that will carry your guarantee---it just doesn't get any better than that!!

Rob
 
Wow, this project seems to be a hot one. I also can't wait to try this katana out. I know this sword will also have a loyal following just like the Khukuris. I feel honored to be one to wring out prototype #2. I also been helping Cecil at Kris Cutlery out on some of his new products. His premium grade katanas will be better than the Chen katanas, but just like H.I. , Kris Cutlery isn't there to take on the production companies like Chen. Their goal is to provide an excellent product for the money. Just like Himalayan Imports. One problem arose though, when people found out that the swords are a good deal for the money, the demand out stripped the supply.
 
Right now we are pretty much supply side limited but with another BirGorkha built right next door and maybe 10 more decent kamis we might be able to change that.

Stay tuned. I'm very eager to see just exactly the kamis and sarkis did with the prototypes. I'm sure there will be some clean up since this is the first time anybody at BirGorkha tried to make a katana but I have high hopes.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
I hate finger grooves! I think if there's only going to be one handle it shouldn't have finger grooves. Did I mention I HATE finger grooves?

Was that the kamis idea? Why the heck would they do that ... they don't put finger grooves on khukuries, do they?

One more thing: I don't like finger grooves very much....

Has there ever been a sword in the history of mankind that had finger grooves?

Just one more detail ... finger grooves suck!

-Cougar :{)

P.S. Finger grooves are an abomination in the sight of the Knive Gods!

P.P.S. Thou shalt not groove thy handle.

P.P.P.S. Not more than once, anyway ... one groove is acceptable, even a good thing if that's what you like ... but a groove for every finger is too many grooves!

P.P.P.P.S. The only thing worse than a handle with finger grooves is a brass-knuckle handle. If you make a katana with a brass-knuckle handle I will curse you with the Dread Curse of the Cougar.

:{)

P.P.P.P.P.S. The rumors that us people from Remulak have sixteen fingers on each hand are exaggerated. Just in case you were wondering....
 
You can order your sword with no finger grooves, Cougar. Just remind me when you place your order.

Yes, they do make some khukuris with finger grooves but you can also order yours without. Be sure to remind me.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
I'm not likely to forget to mention that detail....
smile.gif


Sorry ... it was Jim talking about having only one kind of handle available and saying you could fill in the finger grooves with plastic wood if you don't like them that set me off ... okay, I probably overreacted a little bit, but blasphemy like that ... sorry. I'll shut up now. I will append no P.S.s to this post ... not even one ... I will go take my meds and calm down now ... I will demobilize the hordes of fanatic crusaders that are marching on Birghorka even as I type ... I'd better do that immediately ... I'll just tell them it was a false alarm and they can go home ... no holy war is necessary ... this time ... sorry.

-Cougar :{)
 
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