The Ganzo G8012 Fixed Blade Review

[marcinek]

Yup, just like those benchmade and spyderco and ontario and Lionsteel models feature differences! Like the PM2 or the SR-1 or the Rat 1 designs with the axis-lock, that's not an exact replica, so therefore it's OK, right? I mean, it's not like Benchmade actually owns the patent on the axis-lock, right?

Nailed it.

What, ultimately, boggles me the most is that, yeah, for people with no passion for knives and the people who feed their families making them...then, sure, I get that mindset people have about not caring about these knives meant to look like other knives.

But I always felt this place was for and by folks with a passion for knives and the people who make them. And I strongly object to people coming in here and trying to change that.

Ultimately, of course, I have no decision about that...but it doesn't mean I will sit idly by while it happens more and more often.

 

[marcinek]

I think if they did want to make money they could have found a better candidate than a freaking Gerber.
I also believe they had the Gerber platform but tried to make it look and function different.

1) Gerber sells a ton of knives. You know that. We all know that. That's what they are taking advantage of. Gerber's massive sales. Again,claiming otherwise seems disingenuous at best and deceitful or ignorant at worst.

2) So it's not a knockoff, they just "took Gerber's platform" without permission and that is OK?!? Stop it.

All you are doing is digging yourself a deeper hole here.

 

[AtechReviews]

1) Gerber sells a ton of knives. You know that. We all know that. That's what they are taking advantage of. Gerber's massive sales. Again,claiming otherwise seems disingenuous at best and deceitful or ignorant at worst.

If they wanted to take advantage of Gerber's massive sales, they would have made it look EXACTLY like the Gerber knife.
We all know they have the ability to do that.
But they chose not to, so I don't agree with your statement.

It's not a knock-off and being inspired by other designs isn't a new thing in the knife world.
Just like any framelock knife out there isn't a clone of the Sebenza.
Head of ZT design team have admitted (on this forum) that they were inspired by Sinkevich's designs when they made the ZT0777.
Didn't see anyone call them counterfeiters or clonemakers.

 

[marcinek]

If they wanted to take advantage of Gerber's massive sales, they would have made it look EXACTLY like the Gerber knife.
We all know they have the ability to do that.
But they chose not to, so I don't agree with your statement.

I'll just quote that one for the record. I think it really sums up what you stand for quite nicely.

Looking forward to your next review of an "original knife."

 

[AtechReviews]

Looking forward to your next review of an "original knife."

It is going to be a special one
Spoiler - you wouldn't be able to call it a clone although it is made in China.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Ok... Yes the knives look exactly the same.
NONE of the parts will interchange tho. By U.S. laws alone that make the knife legal for import, and sale. There are enough differences to be outside infringement laws.
Now take a blade from a Case stockman, and install it in an early much earlier Sheffield stockman.
Is the Case a counterfeit?.
Buck 110/Is the Schrade version a counterfeit?

Re: the Stockman, that is a pattern-design that, as far as I know, is not owned by anyone and so can be used by everyone, it is public domain. Re: the Buck 110, my understanding is that YES everyone called it a copy at the time. I have no idea how that played out legally, but I do know that Buck had knives made by Schrade at the same factory after the manufacture of this 110 copy so that may say something about it.

As another reference, there is something called a "Loveless-style Drop Point Hunter" and other "Loveless-style" knives. As i understand it, an individual needs explicit permission from the Loveless estate to make and sell such knives, though I could be wrong on that. His is not a "pattern" like the stockman, not yet anyway. And that is certainly different from the copies.

And even if US law does not protect the rights of knifemakers to their designs, that does not mean that WE the community should not, else we kill the industry

Neither do I defend the American makers that "copy" each others work daily.

Reference?

Every Auto knife in the USA is a hybrid of the Italian Stiletto. Every fixed blade is a hybrid of the Roman bronze Short Sword. Every folder is a hybrid of the Hallstatt knife from 600BC.
Close enough for a comparator?

No, not remotely close, but you knew that, didn't you?

I will share whatever I can find as fact.

THAT is much appreciated.

 

[craytab]

It isn't a logo!
If you paid attention to the video you would see it just symbolizes the uncoated area on the top of the blade to be used with the ferro rod.
This is what happens when you try to review the knife through a picture. SMH


I think if they did want to make money they could have found a better candidate than a freaking Gerber.
I also believe they had the Gerber platform but tried to make it look and function different.



They don't. The patent is owned by McHenry-Williams and was issued more than 20 years ago.
You know what that means, right?

Same symbol, different companies, one makes clones. It is that simple. To deny it is silly and is completely a discredit to this community and knowledge in general.

But if that is what you want to be about here, congrats, your goal is achieved.

 

[chiral.grolim]

It isn't a logo!

Yes, it is a logo. The question is, who owns the logo?

I think if they did want to make money they could have found a better candidate than a freaking Gerber.
I also believe they had the Gerber platform but tried to make it look and function different.

They do want to make money, that should go without saying, no? And they clearly DO use other candidates, as seen from much of their other "original" work, like the benchmade and lionsteel and spyderco and ontario rip-offs. What "better" candidate could they have used than a knife that is wildly popular in the US and to which they have access to all of the parts? They did NOT really try to make it "look and function different", only to make it not precisely identical such that it looks like another version of the same knife, just as they do for all of their OTHER copies.

They don't. The patent is owned by McHenry-Williams and was issued more than 20 years ago.
You know what that means, right?

LOL, you missed my point, and so made my point, so thank you for that They don't care about the patent or license, they care about sales and will keep making copies and near-copies and ripping-off designs until the market stops them, and that, it would seem, is not likely to happen any time soon.

 

[craytab]

It's not a knock-off and being inspired by other designs isn't a new thing in the knife world.
Just like any framelock knife out there isn't a clone of the Sebenza.
Head of ZT design team have admitted (on this forum) that they were inspired by Sinkevich's designs when they made the ZT0777.
Didn't see anyone call them counterfeiters or clonemakers.

Counterfeiters don't pay the people who they collaborate with. The difference seems to be lost on you.

 

[marcinek]

It is going to be a special one
Spoiler - you wouldn't be able to call it a clone although it is made in China.

We will see. Pretty clearly, from this thread, what you have convinced yourself isn't a clone doesn't seem to match the general perception here of what is a clone.

And, again, maybe when you have been around a while, you will realize that the problem isn't "China," its "clones," but probably not.

Anyway, I'm sure we are all looking forward to your upcoming Spydercom Delika review. "The logo on it only has 6 legs, so it's OK!"

 

[Zombie411]

Basic but the searching is leading somewhere...
https://www.diytrade.com/china/manufacturer/1925054/main/Ganzo_Tool_Manufacturer.html

In China Ganzo is "Ganzo Hardware".
The province they claim as home is actually the center of knife manufacturing in China.
80% of exported China made knives come from YangJiang. (wiki)

I beg not to quibble on words but... everything not protected under some law is public domain sir.

I'll continue looking for who, and where they are.
From there it should be easier to find what they are actually licensed to make, and what is as stated... immoral? Illegal?
I for one really would like to put this to bed with facts rather than speculation.

Edit:
"
↑
Every Auto knife in the USA is a hybrid of the Italian Stiletto. Every fixed blade is a hybrid of the Roman bronze Short Sword. Every folder is a hybrid of the Hallstatt knife from 600BC.
Close enough for a comparator?
No, not remotely close, but you knew that, didn't you? "

Sorry for the crude quote... How is my statement "not remotely close"?
I believe it is a fair statement without opinion.

Edit:
Google maps...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...71ae2ba83ddbb0!8m2!3d22.5890865!4d113.8743216

Customs records...
https://panjiva.com/Ganzo-Tools-Co-Ltd/38044877

 

[chiral.grolim]

I beg not to quibble on words but... everything not protected under some law is public domain sir.

I'll continue looking for who, and where they are.
From there it should be easier to find what they are actually licensed to make, and what is as stated... immoral? Illegal?
I for one really would like to put this to bed with facts rather than speculation.

I will counter your quibble with, "Every law not enforced leaves its subject matter unprotected." In other words, IP and patent/trademark law here in the US is inadequately enforced against counterfeiters of knives like Ganzo, and so we have the situation we have - a market that can become flooded with cheap knock-offs and kill the industry. "Legal" vs "illegal" depends on jurisdiction and, again, on enforcement. So there's that again.

But "moral" vs "immoral"? There we may need to rely on "general consensus" for those not a part of the Universal Church of Knife Authority
Here on bladeforums, I think one will find the consensus to be against counterfeiters, as this thread perhaps evinces (though perhaps not, sometimes the minority can be quite noisy).

I thank you for seeking the facts. Yes, I was aware of where the Ganzo tools are made and that it is something of a manufacturing hub in China. Indeed, I think many of the China-made knives sold in the US come from there.

 

[Zombie411]

Yes sir.
If you look back to my prior post I found some older customs records, and they indicate who imported Ganzo products at that time.

I'm with the general consensus on all of this.
I just do not enjoy rumors or inaccuracies. Facts make for better discussion, and I am here to learn.

Here's the customs link... https://panjiva.com/Ganzo-Tools-Co-Ltd/38044877

Here is the company that imports them... http://www.datamyne.com/importer/28199666/ace-tools-corp

Ace Tools CorporationChester - Other Industrial Machinery Manufacturers
Address:
23 Renies Rd
Chester, New York 10918-2649
United States
Ace Tools Corporation is a small, fairly new organization in the other industrial machinery manufacturers industry located in Chester, NY. It opened its doors in 2015 and now has an estimated $108,467 USD in yearly revenue and approximately 2 employees.

 

[AtechReviews]

Same symbol, different companies, one makes clones. It is that simple. To deny it is silly and is completely a discredit to this community and knowledge in general.

Yes, it is a logo. The question is, who owns the logo?

Again, it isn't a logo, it's a symbol for fire.
Just google "fire symbol" and you'll see thousands of symbols just like that.
Guess they all belong to Gerber, right?

LOL, you missed my point, and so made my point, so thank you for that They don't care about the patent or license, they care about sales and will keep making copies and near-copies and ripping-off designs until the market stops them, and that, it would seem, is not likely to happen any time soon.

Every knife company cares about sales. Those who didn't care about that are no longer with us.
And based on their sales - Ganzo isn't going away any time soon.
So deal with it.

Counterfeiters don't pay the people who they collaborate with. The difference seems to be lost on you.

Check your facts - it was before they started to collaborate, nobody asked him if they could use his designs as an influence for the 0777.
In fact, they started to collaborate immediately after this.
http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-original-0777.901807/page-6

 

[chiral.grolim]

Again, it isn't a logo, it's a symbol for fire.
Just google "fire symbol" and you'll see thousands of symbols just like that.

But you will only find THAT EXACT SYMBOL right where it is first on the Gerber BG and THEN on knives that use that same Gerber's handle and even aspects of the blade. Give up, no reasonable person could doubt it is a copy.

Every knife company cares about sales. Those who didn't care about that are no longer with us.
And based on their sales - Ganzo isn't going away any time soon.
So deal with it.

And THAT is the crux of your position. Why bother with the nonsense? Just stick to that argument, it's the only one that matters.

Check your facts - it was before they started to collaborate, nobody asked him if they could use his designs as an influence for the 0777.
In fact, they started to collaborate immediately after this.
http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-original-0777.901807/page-6

Um, perhaps you should read that thread first. Here, I'll help: the post with the two most similar knives is #104

And then the head of the 0777 project comes on as a Kai representative:

My name is Jim MacNair, and I headed up the ZT 0777 project.

I would like to address the statements that have been made concerning the design of the 0777. First off, I’d like to be clear that any similarities between this knife and SiDiS’s work are unintentional. We went through lots of design concepts for the 0777, and the knife continued to evolve throughout the design and prototyping process.

Some have suggested that this design was influenced by several of SiDiS’s designs. I am familiar with SiDis’s work, and I’m sure his style has been an influence. I also believe that we have similarities in our style of design. However, it’s important to note that there were many things inside and outside the world of knives that influenced the design of the 0777.

Influences play an important role in the design process, and designing knives is no exception. Designers would love to say that every design was inspired by a suspension bridge or a cool motorcycle, but oftentimes it is as simple as sitting around sketching. The images that come out of our heads have a lot to do with what we see – and people in this industry see a lot of knives. Many makers are influenced by their peers, and many will even say so. There are thousands and thousands of folding knives out there, and plenty of them share similarities. Most designers will recognize an outright copy, but sometimes it can be difficult to tell if we are letting our influences show too much.

At KAI, we work very hard to make sure our products don’t look too much like designs from other makers and companies. Originality is very important, and generally, it is the more difficult road. Kershaw / ZT have been known for a particular look for a long time, and as you may see, that look is gradually changing. The R&D group has been given directives from the top to come up with original designs, mechanisms, and overall concepts. Originality and innovation are key to our continued success as an organization. We believe that the Echelon, the Knockout, and the Burst represent examples of our innovations in styling and function. I still believe the 0777 stands as its’ own design.

Thank you,

Jim

While there is evidence of influence in the shape of the handle, that is where the similarity ends beyond both being knives with a frame/liner lock. In your case, the Ganzo's handle IS the Gerber's handle (not just "influenced" by) and much of the rest matches as well.

Face it, Ganzo makes copies, has no original designs as yet presented, that includes this one, and maybe even uses the remnants of projects paid for by other companies to make and sell their own branded products, without ANY reference to the original work. You know it, we know it. You don't care if it is technically "legal" or not, nor if it is generally considered "immoral" or not, we get that as well. You can close this thread any time

 

[craytab]

Again, it isn't a logo, it's a symbol for fire.
Just google "fire symbol" and you'll see thousands of symbols just like that.
Guess they all belong to Gerber, right?

Every knife company cares about sales. Those who didn't care about that are no longer with us.
And based on their sales - Ganzo isn't going away any time soon.
So deal with it.


Check your facts - it was before they started to collaborate, nobody asked him if they could use his designs as an influence for the 0777.
In fact, they started to collaborate immediately after this.
http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-original-0777.901807/page-6

Check your facts. Guess who designs and gets a pay check from zt? That is how things get worked out in the legit world. One is called collaboration where both parties prosper. The other is called theft. That is what you are here to promote: theft.

 

[AtechReviews]

While there is evidence of influence in the shape of the handle, that is where the similarity ends beyond both being knives with a frame/liner lock. In your case, the Ganzo's handle IS the Gerber's handle (not just "influenced" by) and much of the rest matches as well.

That is exactly where you are wrong.
Both knives have a sub frame lock on a carbon fiber scale - first used by Sinkevich.
So we have a similar overall design and the same lock.
If you look closely on the Gerber's handle and on the Ganzo one - you could spot a few differences there as well.

Face it, Ganzo makes copies, has no original designs as yet presented

That is just an ignorant lie.
Check out the Ganzo G743, G721, G736, G748 and I could give you a few more.
They do have 100% original designs, you just haven't bothered to check that, didn't you?
You can get off this thread any time now.

 

[AtechReviews]

Check your facts. Guess who designs and gets a pay check from zt? That is how things get worked out in the legit world. One is called collaboration where both parties prosper. The other is called theft. That is what you are here to promote: theft.

Like I said - it was before they started to collaborate.
But I don't blame you for not knowing this - as you were into Ganzos, Sanrenmus and Enlans at the time, so probably missed that one.
All good.

 

[craytab]

Like I said - it was before they started to collaborate.
But I don't blame you for not knowing this - as you were into Ganzos, Sanrenmus and Enlans at the time, so probably missed that one.
All good.

The argument of "you were as bad as I am" is a total fail. So is denying how these legit collaborations came to be. Legit companies negotiate with each other. Crap clone companies thieve.

 

[AtechReviews]

The argument of "you were as bad as I am" is a total fail. So is denying how these legit collaborations came to be. Legit companies negotiate with each other. Crap clone companies thieve.

You see, I don't consider myself as bad.
Don't think Ganzo will ever get the chance to collaborate with some of the leading designers out there.
I would totally would like to see that happen.
Who knows, maybe they will be like the Shirogorov some day.
They did start from a pretty similar position.