THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Thanks to this thread, I've committed to a Model 18... After all, just how many factory hollow handle are being made out there? Outside of full customs, I know of only two... The Randall and the Boker Apparo... Pretty soon I'll have both.

I like the idea of production knives, because they can easily, and most of all quickly, be replaced, which encourages real use compared to more involved month-long/multiple emails tractations... I also very much like old out-of production factory hollow handled knives, but these not so much for use...

I'm hoping for a Parrish, which has become my new grail knife (over the much easier to get, and quite original, but flashier and less fuctional, Al Mar SF-10), but I just missed out on a very cheap dead-mint Parrish on Ebay (went for barely $800, probably 50% under value, and within my reach, aaargh), because if you choose to sell using Ebay's "Global Shipping Program" (and maybe even if you don't), be advised that the word "knife" in the product's title -in Ebay's spout of political correctness- is now associated with selling weapons, and so all international purchasers that you force to use your "Global Shipping" option will be blocked out from where you are without any notification to you... And once you have chosen "Global Shipping", I think you can't undo it without doing a whole new listing.

Using regular international mail maybe will avoid you this travesty, as one seller told me this is associated with the "Global Shipping" option... This needs to be confirmed though, as I didn't keep track of the 90% of knife transactions I was blocked from, since most knives in my range of interests are in the US, and I am in Canada.

Note this problem is much less severe if you buy from a store-type Ebay dealer, like I do for the Randalls. They seem to know their way around that...

If you think I'm kidding, consider that lately the only "non-store" private-origin things I've been able to get from the US into Canada, within my range of interests, were daggers with "dagger" in the title and not "knife"... And I was wondering: "How come I'm getting a lot of daggers these days!?"

Gaston

P.S. Incidently, does anyone know where I can get suitable hollow handle cordwrap, similar to the Boker Apparo's? I can see the difficulty now...: In the 1.4 to 2.2 mm range, in braided nylon cord, Ebay seems to have every single color except black!!! They even have Lavender, but not black...

G.
 
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Blade Scout and KDucky's Brother, I am pleased to know that I am not the only one who still has an original Buck Master from the early 1980's. I carried it through most of my Army career and used it on the field (mountains, desert, arctic, and jungle) on 3 continents. A friend of mine was drooling over my knife a while back. Since these have not been produce in quite some time, I told him he would have a very difficult time finding one. We looked through all the pawn shops in Boise. Sure enough, nobody had a Buck Master. There were quite a few cheap Chinese copies. Unfortunately, my friend settled for the junk he was being shown. I'm sure glad I held out for the good stuff. It now rides on my Bug-Out tactical vest, right next my Kimber Custom LE II in .45 ACP. Both are ready for work or combat.
 
Gaston444, What do you have against 550 cord? Unless you have small hands, it will be a better choice. It has 6 inner core strands as well as the outer shell. Each inner strand has 3 twisted threads as well. Use as much or as little as you need. Nearly 20 feet of 550 cord fit on my Buck Master double wrapped. Plus it makes a very grippy surface, even when wet.
 
Gaston444 said:
Thanks to this thread, I've committed to a Model 18... After all, just how many factory hollow handle are being made out there? Outside of full customs, I know of only two... The Randall and the Boker Apparo... Pretty soon I'll have both.

I like the idea of production knives, because they can easily, and most of all quickly, be replaced, which encourages real use compared to more involved month-long/multiple emails tractations... I also very much like old out-of production factory hollow handled knives, but these not so much for use...

I'm hoping for a Parrish, which has become my new grail knife (over the much easier to get, and quite original, but flashier and less fuctional, Al Mar SF-10), but I just missed out on a very cheap dead-mint Parrish on Ebay (went for barely $800, probably 50% under value, and within my reach, aaargh), because if you choose to sell using Ebay's "Global Shipping Program" (and maybe even if you don't), be advised that the word "knife" in the product's title -in Ebay's spout of political correctness- is now associated with selling weapons, and so all international purchasers that you force to use your "Global Shipping" option will be blocked out from where you are without any notification to you... And once you have chosen "Global Shipping", I think you can't undo it without doing a whole new listing.

Using regular international mail maybe will avoid you this travesty, as one seller told me this is associated with the "Global Shipping" option... This needs to be confirmed though, as I didn't keep track of the 90% of knife transactions I was blocked from, since most knives in my range of interests are in the US, and I am in Canada.

Note this problem is much less severe if you buy from a store-type Ebay dealer, like I do for the Randalls. They seem to know their way around that...

If you think I'm kidding, consider that lately the only "non-store" private-origin things I've been able to get from the US into Canada, within my range of interests, were daggers with "dagger" in the title and not "knife"... And I was wondering: "How come I'm getting a lot of daggers these days!?"

Gaston

P.S. Incidently, does anyone know where I can get suitable hollow handle cordwrap, similar to the Boker Apparo's? I can see the difficulty now...: In the 1.4 to 2.2 mm range, in braided nylon cord, Ebay seems to have every single color except black!!! They even have Lavender, but not black...

G.
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Its Bank line you can pick up at most any sporting goods store that carries fishing supplies. Or you can use 2mm micro paracord which is the same size. The bank line is a little stronger, look for it under trotline, or jug fishing line. #36 or #38 just have to eyeball it for the right size. Regular paracord can make the handles too thick for some. I've used both, I prefer the bank line or 2mm paracord simply because I can get a lot more of it on the handle and I have plenty of hanks of paracord I can attach somewhere else. I also keep kevlar line in the handle because its just so handy for so many things. I have a big roll of the green barge line I got at a sports authority store seems like. If you want some of that let me know and I'll send you some.
 
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Thanks Dave! I'll look for the "Bank line" at Canadian Tire or online... I've never heard that term before...

I have found some 420 pounds 2.5 mm black cord that seems to look fine on a "test knife"... Unlike 550 cord, it seems tighter woven and less "loose", with no loose separate inner core: That could be the ticket for the Randall Model 18. I just thought 550 did not look "fine" enough and fattened the handle too much, but this 2.5 mm is quite a bit thinner than the 550, which is about 3.77 mm in diameter, so that is a significant visual difference... 2.5 mm is still a good "bulk" over the handle, so finer 1.8/2 mm around 200-300 pounds might be better... 1.2/1.5 mm is often down to 50 pounds, so that's a bit thin...

I found this online: 1000M/PCS 1500LB SL Dyneema fiber Braid Barge and Dredge Working Line 2.5MM: 1500 lbs! $530 for a big roll! Too rich for me...

Is the green barge line you mentionned fairly dark, and in the neighborhood of 1.8 to 2 mm, with a tight-woven look?
Anyway, I sent you a PM for the green barge line. I only need a one-handle length. Thanks!

On the down side I had to send the Randall Model 14 back to the factory (in a cheap sheath, I kept the good sheath in case it got lost)... I just couldn't take some of the blade grinding errors. What I described previously as forging related flaws were actually finishing flaws that seem to be common on the Model 18 type blade: The right side hollow grind was perfect, but the left side had, near the belly of the edge, a series of flat surfaces that someone thought would pass for a proper hollow grind, once a shallow single "brush" polish was applied over the various flat surfaces...

Very hard issue to pick up on photos... What it looked like was like a long flat narrow area, with a straight delination top and bottom, then another long thin flat area: A succession of flat areas is not a proper "representation" of a true hollow grind curve imho... Furthermore, my impression is that it affected the functionality of the knife: When I sharpened, trying to get more angle on that excellent 0.5 mm thick edge, the diamond hone "slipped" and deeply scratched the finish, just where the diagonal "ridges", delineating the narrow "flats", met the edge... A sort of change of geometry occurred there that caused the stone to slip, in my opinion...

There was also the "problem" with the point, which I thought was jaw-droppingly sloppy: I just feel the need to post this so you know what you might be in for with a Randall... Check carefully for the pointiest point you can find on the model 18 blade: They vary hugely in profile alone... A Model 18 of the same vintage can vary from 11 teeth to 19, just to give you an idea...: My flawed 14 had an 18 style blade with 19 teeth, the incoming Model 18 has 18 teeth... They are truly not kidding when they say no two are alike...

This photo was part of some of the instructions that I intended to Email to Randall, until I realized they only deal with paper mail! (Having no printer or time to waste, I made a drawing and put it in the box instead):

The problem proved impossible to photograph, but it can sort of be guessed at in the darker area on the blade: The vertical sanding marks are my attempt to make the problem go away...:

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This is how badly the point was ground on my example, I'm not kidding: This is the worst point grind I have ever seen on any knife I have ever purchased: I think some of my kitchen butter spreaders I have are more dangerous tools than this knife was...

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This is what I managed to do after a huge amount of careful work: Still not my pointiest knife...:

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This was how much metal I had to remove to get that point: You can imagine the difficulty in keeping the surfaces looking not too cosmetically damaged after all this grinding by hand...:

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Incidently, this is the little survival kit I had devised for to replace the sharpening stone: the plastic box was cut out of a larger box, and is extremely rigid and uncrushable non-cracking type plastic... The packet at the end is just to make it fit better the slightly too long stone pouch, and contains just a single sealed Advil... Oh well... Fishing line, weight and a single hook is under the igniting "fuzzy" cord... The box could theoretically free up a lot of space in the hollow handle, which I think I will use for more intense fire-starting materials, if I need a fire fast, or in windy conditions.

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So I will wait the 6 to 9 weeks they say repairs require to see how I am treated by Randall: Should be interesting... Quite frankly, I was very pleased with the 0.5 mm edge thickness (I wish all knives were all like that), the handle finish, and the unbelievably handsome sheath. Not much wire-edging occurred when sharpening as well, which is unusual compared to other knives I saw in 440... Despite this, the blade finish was a real downer... This was just one of the most roughly-finished knife blades I have ever seen, and I've bought some dime store clunkers too... There is some basic quality there, but they seem intent to bury it all under a notion of "if it looks rough, that's more old-world and handmade, and that's what you want". No it's not!

I'm giving them another chance with the 18, but if that is anywhere near as bad, that will be it... I just realized the lower price on that one ($500 vs 620 on the stainless 14) means it's carbon: No big deal, even though the 0-1 is supposed to be softer at 55 vs 57 rc: That one still had the best blade design of all the other 18s at that dealer: They are so different from each other it's like they are all different models: I'm not exaggerating... The expense of stainless is considerable on these knives: Again I don't really understand why, 'could be the forging stainless is a lot harder...

I would strongly recommend examining any Randall in person and carefully before buying... Photos just can't pick up all that can go wrong with these blades... And they shallowly buffer-polish errors out to make them look passable at first glance... In another thread were I showed this, another poster mentionned waiting the full four years, and being reminded what a huge letdown it was to get the knife after all these years... I looked hard at the photos this time: Hopefully the 18 will be all right, and they will do a good job on the 14. Fingers crossed...

Gaston
 
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Gaston I've only had one Randall and that was 30years ago, a model 14 and I don't remember it having the same finish issues that yours has. Hopefully they will fix you up.

Oh yeah and I will mail out the Bank line monday.
 
Its a great all around size, full flat grind and the spine is 1/4inch, cuts good in the kitchen or camp.
 
cricketdave said:
Gaston I've only had one Randall and that was 30years ago, a model 14 and I don't remember it having the same finish issues that yours has. Hopefully they will fix you up.

Oh yeah and I will mail out the Bank line monday.
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Great! Thanks very much Dave! I am eager to see it, as it will give me some wrapping options if the 2.5 mm rope makes the handle too big...

Randalls are really something else, I love the edge thinness, but I measured 3 Model 18s from square angle photos, using the hollow handle diameter as reference, and then measuring the blade width compared to the handle diameter: This narrow vertical measurement from a constant reference minimized lens errors I felt: These are the ratios I found from photos: My incoming 18: 1.56 blade width to handle diameter, two others: 1.36 and 1.29(!)...

Gaston
 
martin knives of texas makes them by hand. like 600 bucks though. Rambo inspired knives. we all remember those cheesy ones from the 80s with the fishing line in them. great consept but heavy weight. buckmaster 184 ice nice brother. boker apparo is nice but made over seas or else id buy one.
 
The boker apparo is very well made even if it is made overseas. The actual Martin's are nicer though and tough as can be. Sam Wilson's knives are another tough well made one as are Ray Matton's and a few others. You do pay for that quality though.

Gaston I mailed out your line this morning, I emailed you tracking info. I forgot to mention it but when I was looking to change the wraps I talked to Newt Martin and asked what size he used and it was the 2mm micro paracord or the bank line I'm sending you. So it should feel just like the wrap you had.
 
Merry Christmas to everybody. I have been trying some new color schemes on the 1911 Combat Survivor. I thought some of you might like to see them.

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Colors are olive drab, dark tactical earth, and VG2000 (from Duracote). The scales are, olive drab, brown and natural Micarta, olive drab and camo G10 and died sycamore.

I hope you like them.

Thanks for looking Mark
 
2mm? Great! exactly what I was hoping for Dave!

Great colors on those Combat Survivors Mark!

I just got this in the mail minutes ago:

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First things first: BLADE FINISH IS OK. About 95%+ of Seki City level, with grind lines a little softer but consistently so! Big relief on that count... Happy!

18 teeths here, vs 19 on my 14... Similar appearance otherwise.

Interesting differences with the Randall Model 14 using the very same blade (maybe the blade was even made by the same guy, as they have similar specific "quirks" in the design shape, where most of the others supposedly "same" blades are completely different in design shape): You cannot interchange their sheaths, surprisingly enough, because the snap length on the micarta-handled Model 14's sheath has to be much shorter than on the hollow handle version: A big surprise...

Blade length: On the model 14 it was worrysome 7.399" instead of the advertised 7.5... Model 18 above? 7.394", both with maybe a milimeter or two of extra sheath space at the tip at most: I would say 1/16" of clearance. It does appear the intended length is more like 7.4 than 7.5".

The 14/18 I have are probably very close in blade width, but there are much, much larger disparities in the width of the blade when measuring from photos: Huge handle diameter/blade width ratio differences in other "similar" blades, 1.29 to 1.56 vs the constant handle diameter of almost exactly 1 inch dead on (0.999...): This can almost be concluded as variations in blade width of 1.29" to 1.56"... So it seems the blade length varies far less than the blade width...

Blade thickness on my carbon Model 18 is, blade base, saw start, saw end near tip, 5.03mm, 5.03 mm, 4.77 mm. On my stainless Model 14 the same measurements were: 5.69 mm, 5.17mm, 4.45 mm, so fairly consistent, and not in what I would think is the abnormal range... They are advertised as 1/4" or 6.35 mm, but the blades are nowhere near that: That is too bad, as it robs a lot of chopping power: It may be an effect of the forging process...

The tip! Thinner on my new Model 18, but still below the sharpness one would expect: Just much better and thinner that the "rounded end" horror I had to fix on my 14... A huge relief, but still not very sharp, just much easier to fix...

Out of box sharpness was a little poorer on the 18 than the 14, especially towards the tip. Edge grind base is 0.67 mm on the 18, the 14 was significantly better at 0.5 mm. The Chris Reeves Jereboam was 1.0 mm but better angled at the edge bevel, and is thus useable as is: The Randalls will be resharpened, but the superior edge bevel base thinness remains a clear advantage of Randalls over other knives in my opinion: Why others grind their fixed blades like anvils I'll never understand... Given the finish quality on the 18 I got, I think I might go for one more no-saw 18 in the distant future...

The saw on both is surprisingly aggressive, but not good for deep wood separation cutting, obviously. More like finishing the opposite side of chopped branches, or making fire-making sawdust...

One of the biggest surprises was the 18's hollow handle compartment: CR Jereboam 21 mm diameter for 3.19 mm walls, Boker Apparo 22 mm diameter for 2.77 mm walls (and this still feels overbuilt), Randall: 24 mm for 1.13 mm walls, and this does not seem to compromise strength at all, while saving a lot of weight. Randall compartment length is 2.99 inches. I don't know the lengths of the others, but I can tell you diameter is the most important figure for true capacity: The 1 extra mm of the Apparo over the CR allows for a significantly greater capacity, and much easier extraction...

Buttcap threading quality is excellent, comparable to Chris Reeves: No looseness as you unscrew.

Despite this, the Randall 18 handle is heavier than the Model 14's, and the feeling of balance is even more blade light with the buttcap on... I would say the Apparo, despite being 0.4/0.5 inch shorter, with similar guard balance, has a much more substantial feel, and with an $89 thinned edge will vastly out-chop the Randalls... : Remains to be seen...

Anyway, this is much happier experience than was my 14, and hopefully the 14 will get fixed so that I will have one spare blade to test depending which I like best...

Gaston
 
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Gaston,

Anyone who has been using/collecting Randalls for many, many years won't lift an eyebrow to your observations. These knives are handmade with hand forged blades and any variances in blade dimensions, sawteeth, handle shapes, etc. are as common as bread. Friendly advice - don't over-analyze them too much or you might end up disappointed.

The sawteeth were strictly designed for cutting aircraft skin. They will have very little affect on wood.

Enjoy your knives. They're beauties! :thumbup:
 
TAH said:
Gaston,

Anyone who has been using/collecting Randalls for many, many years won't lift an eyebrow to your observations. These knives are handmade with hand forged blades and any variances in blade dimensions, sawteeth, handle shapes, etc. are as common as bread. Friendly advice - don't over-analyze them too much or you might end up disappointed.

The sawteeth were strictly designed for cutting aircraft skin. They will have very little affect on wood.

Enjoy your knives. They're beauties! :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I knew about the variations, as I point out in my previous posts, but the excuses of the handmade aspects for me stops the moment it begins to affect actual performance...

Blade width variations of 1.29 to 1.56 " are not trivial by any means: You get a radically different knife performance with a blade that is over A QUATER OF AN INCH WIDER... Not just the geometry is better, but you get more blade mass as well... I actually chose my knife based on my analysis of the pictures, to get the blade shape that I want... This is why my Model 14 is very similar to my 18, but unfortunately it had slight but deep surface flaws I could not really see in the pictures. The 18 had no flaws at all, so it shows they can do them right.

The fact that they vary so much on the contrary requires you to analyse them a lot more than any other knife...

The saws are for light metal, but that is of little use: Because they are so aggressive, I think they can actually work to help finish the opposite side of a chopping job: Remains to be seen if that is any good... Aesthetically I like them better than any other saws(!), but I think the ones on the Parrish were a more sensible design choice, including using them for light metal, and they also work well in wood.

It is beautiful, and I am very happy with my second one at least... I do not see those as shelf knives, and I buy them strictly because I think they offer actual performance advantages, not just for the name: I heard from servicemen that Randall used to go to Army bases and sell their knives by bending them in a vise to show their superiority in resistance to breakage... Their thinner edges are also my thing, and then there is the forging process. I also saw a test where a Randall 14 survived better than a Busse Sasquatch chopping concrete... So their beauty is also a matter of functionality to me...

One good thing is they are straight and pretty evenly ground, looking down the top from the handle, so at least that is not another thing to worry about...

Gaston
 
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