The latest Ganzo Firebird D2 knives

[Chronovore]

Results being 'mostly what we expect is a very, very, very bad reason to trust them. It's exactly the kind of cognitive bias that proper testing controls for.

An example using myself, I think of Spyderco as a trustworthy brand, so if results come back that seem to confirm they're using the materials they say, I'm much more inclined to believe those results. That, however, is a giant issue, because those results are no more reliable than any other results from the same test, but I've allowed my preconceptions to color my interpretation of them. And it can work in reverse as well, if I tested a Bark River knife and the results were marginal I would be much more likely to jump to the conclusion that the used a steel other than what was advertised because that has been an issue for them in the past. Proper testing doesn't have a place for those kind of preconceptions and conclusions.

The reason it mattered to me is that methodological problems should produce anomalous results elsewhere in the body of results. For instance, I'd expect to see false positives among suspicious brands or false negatives among trusted brands. Not seeing that, and debating with people who are specifically doubting the results for a particular brand that they are obviously biased against, I hope you can understand where I was coming from.

I'd love it if there were some independent body conducting rigorous, thoroughly controlled tests of things like blade steel identity throughout the industry.

 

[Chronovore]

Again with this appeal to emotion concerning Ganzo. ...

The post you quoted is not an appeal to emotion. It is a strategic commentary on the likely effects of this anti-Ganzo crusade.

You accused me of "poor logic" in the post before this one... Sometimes, I wish internet forums were graded or had logicians on standby.

As far as the quality issue, were the Ganzo knives you handled part of the FH line that this thread was supposed to be about? I only have experience with that line of knives from Ganzo. I've heard that they are higher quality than the regular Ganzo knives but I don't have any firsthand experience with those.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Here's my strategic commentary...Ganzo sucks. Just say no.

 

[Quiet]

The post you quoted is not an appeal to emotion. It is a strategic commentary on the likely effects of this anti-Ganzo crusade.

You accused me of "poor logic" in the post before this one... Sometimes, I wish internet forums were graded or had logicians on standby.

As far as the quality issue, were the Ganzo knives you handled part of the FH line that this thread was supposed to be about? I only have experience with that line of knives from Ganzo. I've heard that they are higher quality than the regular Ganzo knives but I don't have any firsthand experience with those.

Yes, but actually no. You have stated in this thread:

-snip-
I think it's worth being sensitive to that. It's worth understanding how Chinese companies might get started, the history of OEM contracting, etc. -snip-

What matters to me is that Ganzo has started making their own designs. -snip-

What apparently matters to you is that thieves have used money from stolen designs to attempt to go straight and come on guys, isn't that something that we should be supporting, and giving them a chance? No, no it isn't. This IS an appeal to emotion on your part, because you are attempting to imply that shouldn't we give poor Ganzo a chance? Have a heart, guys! They're going straight now with original designs! Can't you guys just let the past go and give them this chance?

Not only no, but HELL no.

-snip- However, I am interested in Ganzo's original designs and I'd like to see their company continue to move in a positive direction. I'm taking a stand here because when I see this cascade of hate on the hobby's premier forum, I see a barrier to that happening. I see people taking a hard, zealous, black-and-white position based on a limited view of the situation and for what purpose? What is the goal here?

-snip-Should those efforts be punished and to what end? The justification seems fuzzy and the action seems counterproductive. -snip-

Again with the emotional "They deserve a chance, guys! By talking trash and keeping their shady past in the forefront of any conversation, and not giving them a pass, it might make it more difficult for ME to support this fraudulent sham of a company. Have a heart, guys! I want to see them invest in their new original designs, can't we all just stop talking about how they have stolen designs from Benchmade, CRK, and Spyderco for a moment? You guuuuyyysss..." No one here other than a few cares whether they succeed, and I certainly don't want to have any hand in it myself.

So again, another appeal to emotion, and it's trash. Ganzo is a trash company, and the more people who search them out online and see threads like these and stop buying them, the better.

 

[Quiet]

It's always insane to me that I actually have to explain this stuff. Criminy.

 

[Chronovore]

It's always insane to me that I actually have to explain this stuff. Criminy.

"Appeal to emotion" is a specific thing. I linked it for you in my previous post.

As I explained, Ganzo is not going away. They are likely to exist regardless of your actions. The only place where your influence might substantively impact them is in their choice of investment, wherein that choice could be more clones or more original designs. This is not an "appeal to emotion" It's not an emotional argument. You also haven't refuted it.

You are also mischaracterizing my position rather uncharitably. I've never said "oh poor Ganzo" or "hey guys, they deserve a chance". All I've done is share my own experiences with Ganzo and cast doubt on the vigorous, uncompromising, and apparently endless zeal of the anti-Ganzo brigade here. The only emotions here are my current annoyance and the happiness I'd feel if y'all would just take it down a notch, abandon the overt trolling, take care with your claims, and reflect upon your positions given the realities of Chinese manufacturing and all the things we don't know. That is all.

 

[Ebenvoila]

I do doubt their XRF test results. I used to run a materials laboratory and performed XRF testing via consoles and hand held units. I had no expertise in metallurgy; I used the XRF on petroleum products. XRF results are only as good as the quality of the calibration and the accuracy of the assumptions made in programming the blanks. You must have operators and programmers familiar with the particular materials. An XRF unit at a university or materials lab will not be set up to accurately measure metal compositions to the type of resolution needed to distinguish between, say, 8Cr and 9Cr.

A few years ago I bought a range of off-brand knives that advertised steel ranging from AUS8 to M390. I tried to test them myself on my lab's equipment, but it required me to make assumptions that I wasn't comfortable making. I turned to experts at Niagara and Crucible to provide backup, and in some cases they obtained different results than mine. To validate their XRF testing, Crucible smelted down part of the blade of one of the inconclusive knives to calibrate/validate the XRF results. It took destructive testing to let them feel confident in the non-destructive testing.

I have little faith that a YouTube interviewer will have the technical expertise to consistently provide data that is accurate and un-biased. The times they've gotten it right; well, even a blind squirrel can find a nut. I appreciate anyone who attempts to add to the knowledge pool available for us Knife Knuts, but LTK results absolutely MUST be taken with a grain of salt and a sense of doubt. Further, the hand held units that most of these apprentice testers are using are typically used for "go", "no go" testing on materials in a QC environment.



No, I don't agree to that at all. Both are wrong, both hurt legitimate manufacturers and designers. The only difference between a clone and a counterfeiter is the counterfeiter defrauds BOTH the maker and the consumer. I could argue the point, for a knife enthusiast, it hurts more to defraud the maker. Some could say that the consumer who buys a clone has simply failed to perform due diligence and has been complicit in their own defrauding. Per Sal, counterfeit knives AND clone knives almost did irreparable damage to Spyderco. You can try to paint these fouls with a broad brush in 50 shades of gray, but in truth the scope of damage can only be considered from the perspective of the victim.


I don't think you're looking that hard. I just filtered BladeHQ to bring up knives that have a 3-4" blade, Flipper, weight less than 3.5 ounces and price less than $100 USD (that's their lowest price range...hmmm...makes you think .) All have better steel than 8Cr.

I got 65 options. All are from companies that are more reputable than Ganzo. In fact, reputable vendors don't even offer Ganzo as a choice.

Here's the link to the search...

https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Manual-Knives-
-45#/filterrice:*:100/filter:blade_length:3:3.49/filter:blade_length:3.5:4/filterpener:Flipper/filter:blade_material2/sortrice_sort_asc:asc/filter:weight:1.5:3.5/filter:blade_stylerop$2520Point/filter:blade_material:14C28N/filter:blade_material:Bohler$2520N690/filter:blade_material:Acuto$252B/filter:blade_material:CPM-S35VN

There are some compelling knives there...
Things like the Steel Will Intrigue:

CIVIVI Little Fiend:

CIVIVI Wyvern:

Kershaw Bareknuckle:

These are just a few that meet your general specs but are infinitely better choices for a responsible knife buyer.

Yes, many of these cost a few dollars more than a Firebird, but you may find yourself having to make a more expensive choice. Good luck on your knife journey. If you decide to go on and purchase a Ganzo, I, for one, don't want to hear about it.

Many thanks for the time you take for me/us.
The Steel Will seems to be nice, has D2, but it has no ball bearings (40 €).
The CIVIVI Wyvern is even better, but more expensive (60 €).
The Kershaw Bareknuckle (90 €)
In this case, I can buy several Kershaw Dividend for 53 € each.

 

[craytab]

I'd love it if there were some independent body conducting rigorous, thoroughly controlled tests of things like blade steel identity throughout the industry.

Do you know why there isn't? Because it isn't needed from trustworthy companies. It's only useful for trash companies like ganzo, which is easy enough for those who care to avoid.

"Appeal to emotion" is a specific thing. I linked it for you in my previous post.

As I explained, Ganzo is not going away. They are likely to exist regardless of your actions. The only place where your influence might substantively impact them is in their choice of investment, wherein that choice could be more clones or more original designs. This is not an "appeal to emotion" It's not an emotional argument. You also haven't refuted it.

You are also mischaracterizing my position rather uncharitably. I've never said "oh poor Ganzo" or "hey guys, they deserve a chance". All I've done is share my own experiences with Ganzo and cast doubt on the vigorous, uncompromising, and apparently endless zeal of the anti-Ganzo brigade here. The only emotions here are my current annoyance and the happiness I'd feel if y'all would just take it down a notch, abandon the overt trolling, take care with your claims, and reflect upon your positions given the realities of Chinese manufacturing and all the things we don't know. That is all.

You can keep trying this from every angle. Gosh knows it seems to be a crusade for you since you've joined. I'm willing to bet that around half your posts are on this subject. Seems pointless to me but go right ahead. We aren't going anywhere and the forum's stated stance on this subject will not change anytime soon.

 

[Quiet]

"Appeal to emotion" is a specific thing. I linked it for you in my previous post.

As I explained, Ganzo is not going away. They are likely to exist regardless of your actions. The only place where your influence might substantively impact them is in their choice of investment, wherein that choice could be more clones or more original designs. This is not an "appeal to emotion" It's not an emotional argument. You also haven't refuted it.

You are also mischaracterizing my position rather uncharitably. I've never said "oh poor Ganzo" or "hey guys, they deserve a chance". All I've done is share my own experiences with Ganzo and cast doubt on the vigorous, uncompromising, and apparently endless zeal of the anti-Ganzo brigade here. The only emotions here are my current annoyance and the happiness I'd feel if y'all would just take it down a notch, abandon the overt trolling, take care with your claims, and reflect upon your positions given the realities of Chinese manufacturing and all the things we don't know. That is all.

I disagree with pretty much everything you say here, and further, am not really sure why you continue to try to refute it. You stated those things, you are interested in Ganzo making new knives, and gaining new customers. You seem to feel that my posts (and those of other detractors here) somehow will affect or discourage Ganzo in some way. Honestly? If they do? GOOD. If not (shrug), no big deal. However, I can state factually that every time a Ganzo thread gets started here on Bladeforums, you can expect these sorts of comments. Ganzo's past will never be erased or handwaved away, at least not while I'M a member.

Also, it appears your grasp on the definition of "trolling" is as strong as your understanding of what defines an "appeal to emotion". You can't troll a company because A. they don't care, B. they aren't a paying supporting vendor for this site and C. they're trash and aren't deserving of any leniency or respect. If you dislike my comments in this thread, I heartily encourage you to report them, though I'll let you know now that the Administration won't do anything because nothing I've said is untrue, breaking any rules, or actual trolling.

If anything, they'll lock this thread, and let it sink, like all of the other Ganzo threads where their defenders* get mad when their detractors come in and start throwing facts around, your attempts at redirection, appeals to emotion, and attempts to broom the past under a rug all fail.

Ganzo is a trash company of thieves, and they make a garbage product. If you need a $20 Chinese knife, buy a Kershaw, at least they're a standup company and further, at least you can feel confident that the steel you're getting is actually going to be what it says it is.



* Which I can still scarcely believe, honestly

 

[Eli Chaps]

...
The only emotions here are my current annoyance and the happiness I'd feel if y'all would just take it down a notch, abandon the overt trolling, take care with your claims, and reflect upon your positions given the realities of Chinese manufacturing and all the things we don't know. That is all.

I could turn that around and say I'm annoyed at you and would be happy if you stopped sticking up for Ganzo. But you can voice your thoughts all you want and people can read all the responses and make a decision for themselves. I clearly stated, more than once why I am anti-Ganzo and I don't need to take care or reflect any more than I've already done.

 

[Quiet]

I could turn that around and say I'm annoyed at you and would be happy if you stopped sticking up for Ganzo. But you can voice your thoughts all you want and people can read all the responses and make a decision for themselves. I clearly stated, more than once why I am anti-Ganzo and I don't need to take care or reflect any more than I've already done.

Brother, I said it in another thread elsewhere, but I remain convinced of its truth: If the Zombie Apocalypse were to happen tomorrow, we'd absolutely have people talking "What about their rights? We should be trying to understand their side of things" all the way up until they're getting turned into lunchmeat.

 

[danbot]

Well, I'm a part of this forum and that's my stance on it. I think my perspective is valid. I took the time to share it in a new thread where somebody asked. You responded to my post but you didn't actually discuss anything I said in any detail or share anything even remotely interesting about it.

The OP alluded to the storm of hate that pours forth whenever anyone mentions Ganzo. We all get it because you "repeat the same spiel over and over again". The difference is that you don't do it with any degree of time, effort, detail, or civil generosity to the slightest possibility that any other perspective might have the tiniest bit of merit. Frankly, it's tiresome. Is it even worth asking whether you read my previous post before responding?

The argument you have made about the "culture" or "realities" of the global marketplace are very poor. Ganzo and others could go through the proper procedures to procure rights under license agreements to use another companies IP legitimately, but instead, they chose the path of the scumbag.
That won't be forgotten here.

 

[danbot]

Because we shouldnt talk about this topic. As usual, just put hand over your ears and yell “Ganzo bad! Ganzo copy! China bad!”.

Ganzo bad! Ganzo copy! China bad!

 

[Quiet]

-snip- reflect upon your positions given the realities of Chinese manufacturing and all the things we don't know. That is all. -snip-

Actually, sorry for the double reply to your single response, but I want to address your last comment.

What, in your estimation, is something about Chinese manufacturing that we "don't know", that if we did know, would make everything Ganzo has done alright, and we'd just move on and give them a chance?

Because actually, this sentence from you actually shores up OUR argument, not yours. "Understanding" or "reflecting" really isn't necessary when the facts are that this specific company made a profit selling cheap knock off versions of industry icon knives like the CRK Sebenza and the Spyderco PM2. Wait, let me stop you right there, before the tired, beaten "Well, they weren't h'aaaaackshuaally clones because they had other features and no logos, etc." response gets trotted out. We all have seen those knives. We know why they made their knives look like Griptilians, Sebenzas, and PM2s. They did it because those knives are respected, popular, and had earned well-deserved reputations in the pocket knife world. Ganzo earned none of that. They just took the designs, and made their own versions of those knives, oh and added a lock (which was completely copyrighted at the time).

 

[Danke42]

Brother, I said it in another thread elsewhere, but I remain convinced of its truth: If the Zombie Apocalypse were to happen tomorrow, we'd absolutely have people talking "What about their rights? We should be trying to understand their side of things" all the way up until they're getting turned into lunchmeat.

The Zombies just wanted it more.

 

[Hackenslash]

The Zombies just wanted it more.

The Zombie Apocalypse is a Proletariat Revolution when viewed from the zombie perspective.

 

[Chronovore]

Do you know why there isn't? Because it isn't needed from trustworthy companies. It's only useful for trash companies like ganzo, which is easy enough for those who care to avoid.

You can keep trying this from every angle. Gosh knows it seems to be a crusade for you since you've joined. I'm willing to bet that around half your posts are on this subject. Seems pointless to me but go right ahead. We aren't going anywhere and the forum's stated stance on this subject will not change anytime soon.

It's no active crusade on my part. It's simply a reaction to your crusade when I encounter it. That's usually when anyone brings up Ganzo in any other context and the firestorm is unleashed.

BTW, how much are you willing to bet? I could use a little spare cash...

 

[Chronovore]

Actually, sorry for the double reply to your single response, but I want to address your last comment.

What, in your estimation, is something about Chinese manufacturing that we "don't know", that if we did know, would make everything Ganzo has done alright, and we'd just move on and give them a chance?

Because actually, this sentence from you actually shores up OUR argument, not yours. "Understanding" or "reflecting" really isn't necessary when the facts are that this specific company made a profit selling cheap knock off versions of industry icon knives like the CRK Sebenza and the Spyderco PM2. Wait, let me stop you right there, before the tired, beaten "Well, they weren't h'aaaaackshuaally clones because they had other features and no logos, etc." response gets trotted out. We all have seen those knives. We know why they made their knives look like Griptilians, Sebenzas, and PM2s. They did it because those knives are respected, popular, and had earned well-deserved reputations in the pocket knife world. Ganzo earned none of that. They just took the designs, and made their own versions of those knives, oh and added a lock (which was completely copyrighted at the time).

I don't think anything "would make everything Ganzo has done alright". As I've said from the very beginning, their extensive copying is in very poor taste and I don't care for it. I'm only interested in Ganzo's original work. I'd like to see them continue in that direction and ultimately stop with the other stuff.

As far as what we don't know, it dovetails with your earlier comment that Ganzo itself may just be an arm of some larger business interest. That fact is, we don't know. We don't know who Ganzo has done OEM work for, who they have deals with, what kinds of deals they have, etc. We don't know their relationship with other Chinese companies. We don't know which workers, managers, investors, facilities, capital, designs, etc. have been shared with which other companies. We don't know how or where a lot of those actors got their start. This point has largely been directed at people making claims like "I'd never own a knife from those crooks"; or to illustrate what I see as clawing at mist.

There are other issues like the nature of distribution and IP rights or laws across regions or in global commerce. Frankly, I'm tired. I'm just one guy and y'all are wearing me down on something that's just not that important to me. I've probably contributed all I can here. If it was helpful for anyone, I'm happy.

 

[craytab]

It's no active crusade on my part. It's simply a reaction to your crusade when I encounter it. That's usually when anyone brings up Ganzo in any other context and the firestorm is unleashed.

BTW, how much are you willing to bet? I could use a little spare cash...

This isn't my crusade. It is the official stance of bladeforums.com and I happen to agree with it. If you haven't noticed, most other people agree as well. The internet is a big place. No doubt there is a place where you can preach the cloner gospel. This isn't it.

Oh, and if you are strapped for cash, the last thing you want to do is lose it on a bad bet.

 

[Planterz]

Oh, and if you are strapped for cash, the last thing you want to do is lose it on a bad bet.

A trip to the ER for stitches costs a lot more than many really nice, dependable knives.