The latest Ganzo Firebird D2 knives

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Ebenvoila,out of curiosity, you show a Kershaw dividend w composite blade in your avatar. Was wondering if you have one and if you do, I think there would be no need for a Ganzo.That composite dividend blows any Ganzo away your better off saving your money,even though its only 25.00 your gonna throw away.
 
Chronovore said:
How are these illegal products available at a major retailer like Amazon?
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Seriously? I suppose you have never read any of the articles detailing the rampant sale of clones and counterfeits of products of all sorts at Amazon? Amazon absolves itself of responsibility for anything 3rd party sellers bring to the marketplace unless a C and D order drops on them. Or if they get burned by enough bad press that the government jumps in, like the huge markups in PPE and cleaning supplies. I have seen small companies with a clever product complain that overseas companies copy their product and sell it on Amazon, and without the deep pockets to litigate they just have to lump it. Amazon's business practices are in no way a benchmark for moral or ethical behavior.

And as for my bold statement, why don't you prove it's not true? I don't seem to have the access you do to Chinese manufacturing databases, I simply go by the product catalog and overall reputation. Artisan Cutlery. Maybe their stuff is made by Ganzo, maybe not. I don't give a damn if they are, because it is being done legally, above board, and nobody is getting their IP ripped off.

Your "illustration" is a wall of supposition and conjecture, and there is no way to prove or disprove any of it. I don't understand why we can't judge a company on its known behavior based on the POSSIBILITY that they may engage in business that is not reprehensible. Your position is that the anti-Ganzo crowd are rushing to judgment and that we are not smart enough to note the shaky grounds for our opinion. I say that to make that argument requires enough moral relativism to make any claim to the moral high ground completely invalid. We won't agree, ever, there's no point in continuing.
 
Mr.Wizard said:
Here's an idea: we should stop supporting and depending on China and implicitly the Chinese Communist Party no matter what brand gets stamped on a blade.
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Totally agree. I would support ONLY American or European companies. None from Asia, especially China.
 
goldie said:
Ebenvoila,out of curiosity, you show a Kershaw dividend w composite blade in your avatar. Was wondering if you have one and if you do, I think there would be no need for a Ganzo.That composite dividend blows any Ganzo away your better off saving your money,even though its only 25.00 your gonna throw away.
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These are my current knives (like written in my signature): Kershaw Dividend Composite, Kershaw Dividend Grey, Kershaw Dividend GFN, Böker Plus Mini Tech-Tool City 1, Böker Plus Urban Trapper Cocobolo, Ontario RAT 2 D2 black blade, Ontario RAT 1 D2, Sanrenmu 1161, Ruike P108-SF, Sanrenmu 7073 LUX, Victorinox Sentinel, Victorinox Climber, Real Steel Thor T101 Special Edition.
I'm not the only user of knives in my family, I need one at disposal at several places. That's why until now I had some little Sanrenmu 7073 LUX at these places.
I wanted to replace them with flippers with better edge retention.
I wouldn't put my Kershaw because I think they would disappear for any reason...
 
Puppadore said:
Totally agree. I would support ONLY American or European companies. None from Asia, especially China.
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That's not as easy as that.
You have to set a barrier because even if the company is American or European, plenty of them make knives in China, or use parts from China.
And if you tell for example that you won't buy products fully or partly produced in China, but sold by an American or a European company, this could cause the end of this company.
 
Ebenvoila said:
That's not as easy as that.
You have to set a barrier because even if the company is American or European, plenty of them make knives in China, or use parts from China.
And if you tell for example that you won't buy products fully or partly produced in China, but sold by an American or a European company, this could cause the end of this company.
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Well i just like to keep it simple. If it is made in China or any non-American or European country, i won’t support it.

I wouldnt support ganzo or Ontrio or Liong Ma or any of that sort.
 
Puppadore said:
Well i just like to keep it simple. If it is made in China or any non-American or European country, i won’t support it.

I wouldnt support ganzo or Ontrio or Liong Ma or any of that sort.
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I'm kind of curious how you maintain this "simple" rule.

Do you define "Europe" in the classic sense? So no Russian knives? Or just from Western Russia?
You'd never consider a knife from Africa or Japan?
How strict is this standard? Is there a maximum amount of imported component you'll allow? What about Torx screws or washers?
Does packaging affect this decision? If a knife is packaged in American cardboard but is carried in an Asian pouch, is that a strict no-buy?
What if the desiccant pouches are imported from China?
What if a knife is made and assembled in a US factory by a worker who sends their paycheck to family in the PRC?

I'm sorry, this is a very complicated, "simple" rule. Is it OK for you to break your "simple" rule so long as you remain unaware?

I'd love to hear more how this works for you.
 
Chronovore said:
I don't think anything "would make everything Ganzo has done alright". As I've said from the very beginning, their extensive copying is in very poor taste and I don't care for it. I'm only interested in Ganzo's original work. I'd like to see them continue in that direction and ultimately stop with the other stuff.

As far as what we don't know, it dovetails with your earlier comment that Ganzo itself may just be an arm of some larger business interest. That fact is, we don't know. We don't know who Ganzo has done OEM work for, who they have deals with, what kinds of deals they have, etc. We don't know their relationship with other Chinese companies. We don't know which workers, managers, investors, facilities, capital, designs, etc. have been shared with which other companies. We don't know how or where a lot of those actors got their start. This point has largely been directed at people making claims like "I'd never own a knife from those crooks"; or to illustrate what I see as clawing at mist.

There are other issues like the nature of distribution and IP rights or laws across regions or in global commerce. Frankly, I'm tired. I'm just one guy and y'all are wearing me down on something that's just not that important to me. I've probably contributed all I can here. If it was helpful for anyone, I'm happy.
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You're being logically inconsistent. Your previous argument was that the testing done by LTK should be considered trustworthy because it was the only data point we have. Now you're arguing that we shouldn't refuse to buy Ganzo knives because there are potentially unknown circumstances in which they're functioning as OEM for more reputable knife companies. Unfortunately, you have the two things entirely backwards. From a scientific position the testing LTK has done, while not worthless, has extremely limited value and should be regarded very cautiously, but from an ethical perspective using the excuse that we may take actions that benefit a bad actor without knowing it to rationalize knowingly take actions that benefit said bad actor is complete hogwash.
 
Hackenslash said:
I'm kind of curious how you maintain this "simple" rule.

Do you define "Europe" in the classic sense? So no Russian knives? Or just from Western Russia?
You'd never consider a knife from Africa or Japan?
How strict is this standard? Is there a maximum amount of imported component you'll allow? What about Torx screws or washers?
Does packaging affect this decision? If a knife is packaged in American cardboard but is carried in an Asian pouch, is that a strict no-buy?
What if the desiccant pouches are imported from China?
What if a knife is made and assembled in a US factory by a worker who sends their paycheck to family in the PRC?

I'm sorry, this is a very complicated, "simple" rule. Is it OK for you to break your "simple" rule so long as you remain unaware?

I'd love to hear more how this works for you.
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No Japanese and Taiwan made knives would suck. Me thinks this simple rule was posted in haste.
 
Chronovore said:
We don't know who Ganzo has done OEM work for, who they have deals with, what kinds of deals they have, etc. We don't know their relationship with other Chinese companies. We don't know which workers, managers, investors, facilities, capital, designs, etc. have been shared with which other companies. We don't know how or where a lot of those actors got their start.
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You're right. We don't know. So let's go with what we do know. Ganzo steals designs. Don't support the brand ganzo. It really is that simple.

The fact that we don't know if legit companies use the same OEM as ganzo does not make supporting ganzo acceptable, nor does it make supporting companies that might use the same OEM a ganzo unacceptable. The unacceptable bit here is the brand ganzo. See how that works?
 
Hackenslash said:
I'm kind of curious how you maintain this "simple" rule.

Do you define "Europe" in the classic sense? So no Russian knives? Or just from Western Russia?
You'd never consider a knife from Africa or Japan?
How strict is this standard? Is there a maximum amount of imported component you'll allow? What about Torx screws or washers?
Does packaging affect this decision? If a knife is packaged in American cardboard but is carried in an Asian pouch, is that a strict no-buy?
What if the desiccant pouches are imported from China?
What if a knife is made and assembled in a US factory by a worker who sends their paycheck to family in the PRC?

I'm sorry, this is a very complicated, "simple" rule. Is it OK for you to break your "simple" rule so long as you remain unaware?

I'd love to hear more how this works for you.
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i see “Made in China”, then I dont purchase it.

I want to keep it simple because I don’t have time to research where individual parts come from, or where the box packaging comes from, or what process was used to manufacture it.
 
Puppadore said:
i see “Made in China”, then I dont purchase it.

I want to keep it simple because I don’t have time to research where individual parts come from, or where the box packaging comes from, or what process was used to manufacture it.
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Ok, I understand. So it's really just "no Chinese knives" rather than American and European knives only? I would never think to tell someone where they can or can't spend their consumer dollars. If you have a plan that works for you, then that's great. I just thought it was much more complicated than "no Chinese knives" and was genuinely curious how you worked it on a practical sense.
 
Hackenslash said:
Ok, I understand. So it's really just "no Chinese knives" rather than American and European knives only? I would never think to tell someone where they can or can't spend their consumer dollars. If you have a plan that works for you, then that's great. I just thought it was much more complicated than "no Chinese knives" and was genuinely curious how you worked it on a practical sense.
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Basically, i just use the tags as a guideline. If it is made in Japan, i wont buy it even if it is a Spyderco.

But even when it is made in US, i would prefer something like Mic Strider, than Liong Ma
 
Chronovore said:
As far as what we don't know, it dovetails with your earlier comment that Ganzo itself may just be an arm of some larger business interest. That fact is, we don't know. We don't know who Ganzo has done OEM work for, who they have deals with, what kinds of deals they have, etc. We don't know their relationship with other Chinese companies. We don't know which workers, managers, investors, facilities, capital, designs, etc. have been shared with which other companies. We don't know how or where a lot of those actors got their start. This point has largely been directed at people making claims like "I'd never own a knife from those crooks"; or to illustrate what I see as clawing at mist.
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I believe I understand the point you're trying to make. There's a lot of things we can "think" about Chinese knives. There's certainly no denying that the mainland China knife industry's origin is a cloudy topic. It's possible that current, well respected Chinese manufacturers may have originated from cloner roots. Names like Reate, WE and Kizer may well have started by making clones, or share a common origin company that made clones. We know Kizer at one time was an OEM maker for designers like Tim Britton. The ubiquitous "Kevin John" cloner is now fighting clones of what appears to be an original design. Custom Knife Factory probably started out made in China and assembled in Russia. Ditto for Qtrmster (except for the Russia part). Factor Knives, a subsidiary of Fenix Flashlights, probably copied a GiantMouse design. They haven't admitted it but when the knife community objected, they quietly stopped selling the knives. As a conscientious knife buyer you can only weigh the available evidence and make the most informed decision. The origin of many of these manufacturers will probably never be clear.

There are also things we can "know" about Chinese knives. We know that Real Steel arose from SanRenMu. If you have a big problem with SanRenMu, you might consider carrying that over to Real Steel. We also know that Ganzo openly copied designs from Benchmade and Spyderco. We know that Ganzo copied trademarked and patented elements of other knives and offered those knives for sale in the US where they should have been under protection. We know that Ganzo continues to sell copied knives. We know this because those knives exist as hard evidence of IP/patent/concept theft.

We can "think" that Ganzo is trying to go legit with some Firebird designs that may be original. That's a valid thought. Unfortunately for me and many other knife knuts, the bad we "know" about Ganzo far outweighs the good that we might "think" we know.

I hope this clarifies the disjoint that's been expressed by both sides.

On a related note, I don't find the Firebird knives to be significantly different in quality from the Ganzo branded knives that came before.
 
Puppadore said:
Basically, i just use the tags as a guideline. If it is made in Japan, i wont buy it even if it is a Spyderco.

But even when it is made in US, i would prefer something like Mic Strider, than Liong Ma
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Let me just say this (and it'll probably get a laugh from those folks here who know me well): I'd buy a Chinese made knife before I wasted a penny on a McBurger knife.
 
Puppadore said:
Basically, i just use the tags as a guideline. If it is made in Japan, i wont buy it even if it is a Spyderco.

But even when it is made in US, i would prefer something like Mic Strider, than Liong Ma
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So stolen Valor over someone who has Asian origins? You make no sense. Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea are all our allies and are (more or less) democratic countries. Why would you refuse buying from them?

China I understand. Their government owns everything, so buying a Chinese knife means money in a communist govt pocket. But the others? And valuing mick burger over liong ma...
 
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