The "Lots of Satisfied Customers" Fallacy

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I have to agree with Mr. Simonich completely.

No offense Marion, I think Cliff and others brought up good points, but what kind of discussion was that supposed to spawn? If you don't like a particular knife that others do, fine- live and let live.

How would you like Mr. Simonich or other established makers to "prove" their knives? Through what methodology would you be convinced that one piece of material or completed knife is superior to another? And how would you like a maker to demonstrate this to you?

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Oh, and BTW, I buy Twinkies 'cause they're good and I do actually like them. Not because all my friends do too, or because the "man" tells me I should. It's a conscious decision. Marion, sometimes people just buy knives cause they like them and enjoy having different ones. What's the hang up with the "Million Dollar Utility Knife" thing, anyways- honestly I just don't get it. Have you really found people that upset you THAT much when lauding praises upon their newest cutlery aquisitions? C'mon man, they're just doing what makes 'em happy! Who cares what THEY paid for it...... Ok- sorry I'm done for now...



[This message has been edited by clip point (edited 03-11-2000).]
 
I'm not quite sure what MDP is trying to say here. I don't really know a better test than customer satisfaction.... it is the standard by which almost every retail product is judged.

It is certainly not hog wash. We have roughly 10,000 customers with a nearly 93% retention rate. Those numbers judge our success. The fact that we sell to over 35 countries world wide says something about market penetration as well. It is due to "customer satisfaction" and word of mouth. We don't advertise.

Let me submit that given his production difficulties, Busse would not be in business today were it not for the "customer satisfaction" with his product.

Rob does very little advertising, if any. As you know, we sell the Kanji in Talonite. Though it is expensive we have had nearly 30% of our Kanji customers buy a second knife because "the wife loved it and wanted one". I bet most of the folks here would be delighted if they bought a knife that actually interested "she who rules"
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I don't know how old MDP is but I'd guess that he was pumping his diapers while I was whittling traps. My creaking joints tell me that I don't understand Marion's qualifications to criticize any group of makers.

I feel I am qualified to evaluate blades. Though I feel qualified, I don't like doing so. From my point of view there is no perfect knife. There is no perfect design. For any individual there are blades that work and blades that don't work. That condition may be reversed for the next person. In other words... what works for me might not work for you. Marion, you should know that.

Cliff tests blades in a very different way than I. I believe that he understands my distrust for destruction testing and we may even share a few points of view regarding blade design. We also disagree on several issues regarding design. That may mean that we agree, in practice if not in words, that there is no perfect design or material, yet.

There are many others who are deeply qualifed to comment on materials and design. Many of them are in disagreement with each other with respect to the materials and design. I'm not certain that Marion is part of that August body.

If there are disagreements between folks who have significant skills in testing, field and lab, then the final test has to be the marketplace. That test is called "customer satisfaction".

Customer satisfaction is not hog wash. It is where the rubber meets the road. It is the most valid test of any product. John Q public does not care if the RC is 58 or 56 or 60... "does the knife work for those three days a year I go hunting?" and "Do I feel good about the blade, do I have pride of ownership?" If the answer to those questions is yes, then the knife is a good one. The customer is satisfied.

The rest is hogwash.

Ron


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Learn Life Extension at:

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[This message has been edited by Doc Ron (edited 03-11-2000).]
 
I don't understand the "first blood" stuff. Is that some sort of dramatic allusion? I am trying to get to the bottom of your argument and I did read your material. Where does it say that these makers are involved in a hype?

I have a nice log of the field time my Talonite blade has had. I got one of the first ones Rob made and have had it for over a year. I loan it to local hunters and ask them for opinions. Several of them have ordered blades from Rob because of the performance of the material. Others can't afford the knife but commented on it.

I'd be happy to share some of the particulars with this body. I am saving the chart for an article I am writing. I don't do "Lab work". If it doesn't fly in the field I'll know it. Talonite flies very well.

Don't take everything personal.

Ron



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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
I have just finished reading ALL of this thread, and doc ron and rob are right on target. first blood, second blood, no blood, mdp, you started a controversial topic and dont want to take any heat for it. one of the things that runs this planet is money (a lot of people think it is the ONLY thing that runs it-they leave God out of the picture and in the end He will leave them out).. but one thing for sure....it is an important part of the equation...and people vote with their pocketbooks..and it you dont think that matters there is a screw loose somewhere. end of rant....
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http://www.mayoknives.com




[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 03-11-2000).]
 
Cliff, nowhere did I say that asking for and receiving good answers was inappropriate or not useful. I have made that crystal clear on here or another thread I think. No secrets.

What I did say and what I will stand by is based on a whole lot of experience (both good and bad) with custom knives. And I likely own as many high end custom knives as anyone on this thread (about 50 worth well in excess of $15,000, maybe more than $20,000. None mine of course). If you are looking for a pat answer, absent other inputs, the maker's prices and backlog are an excellent indicator of his quality, since it reflects his reputation for quality. This isn't BS. There may be some who get away with a long lost reputation, but the market has a neat way of sorting that out over time.

I promise you, if Bob Loveless or S.R. Johnson turned out a couple lousy knives it would be the talk of the industry quickly. As I said, this is not an insulated community.

This is no reflection on the merits of other methods of evaluation. This thread deals with the issue of whether customer satisfaction and maker's reputation are good or not so good indicators of quality. I believe they are, and absolutely they are from the perspective of investment.

There seems to be an attitude on here by some that their integrity is more pristine and less in question than that of knifemakers. There also seems to be an attitude that some know more about knives than the people who make them. Based on these opinions, knives by Loveless, Schmidt, Johnson, Holder, etc. ad nauseum, would not necessarily be considered "good" knives. They satisfy my tests but fail yours.

These people didn't get their reputation by making pretty knives; they did so by making good knives. Loveless knives have probably dressed and skinned more deer than knives by any other living maker. But he uses ATS-34...

If you're not going to allow knifemakers to live on their reputation, maybe others shouldn't take their own too seriously either.

All the review comments I have read on BladeForums in the aggregate touch on no more than half of the details that comprise a "good" knife, and that's being generous. I have read almost nothing about the details of assemblage, fit and finish which are the hallmarks of good craftsmanship. Level and even grinds are good indicators of the integrity of a blade's geometry and construction. And many reviews have failed to mention that the knife even had a handle, much less if the handle was ergonomically sound. Does the craftsmanship in general reflect quality? Are there details of construction that elevate the knife above the minimum number of parts necessary to call it a knife? Is the finish one that is durable and appropriate? And, as important as anything else, is it an appealing knife to own and use? Can you take as much pride in the knife as the maker took in creating it? Without that, chopping all the wood, cardboard and rope in the world doesn't make it worth the bother.

Maybe we would do well to afford others the respect we would like to enjoy ourselves.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
This thread has gone off topic, but I'd like to address the original point made by MDP, IMO it depends on two things.

If you're a lemming or a sheeple the "xxx satisfied customers" as justification makes sense no matter what.

If you're not a sheeple or lemming, then "xxx satisfied customers" probably means you've struck a nerve, as it sounds pretty much like a defensive response. Which could have been triggered by how the question was asked.

Remember too that any maker has to be a salesman, and for most people being a salesman isn't easy.

DaveH
 
David, let me explain something to you. I really don't care what MDP thinks. I do care that reality is accurately represented and he implied that reality was false.

I do care about the many people who read this thread believing that some fine knifemakers produce questionable products because someone who doesn't know what he is talking about says so. So I guess it does strike a nerve in that sense.

Very few knifemakers are decent salespeople, because most of us agonize over our products, and all of us know that no matter how good we are, we can always be better. That has absolutely nothing to do with producing a good product. It has to do with producing a product that fulfills our own unrealistic demands on ourselves.

It would be interesting to know if the people who are judging knifemakers are as conscientous about what they do for a living as we are about the knives we create. This isn't a game, you know. This is our livelihood. It's how we support our families. it's also about our integrity. Suppose you had someone who doesn't know much about what you do for a living passing judgement on the quality of your professional conduct?

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Marion,
Quit calling foul. I don't see where anyone attacked you. If these posts brought blood, you need to get a hobby that doesn't get close to sharpened objects.
 
Jerry,

Thank you. You said it all clearly and accurately.

The first thing I noticed about Robs work was the fit and finish. The Kanji in Talonite was not my first dealing with him. I had him make a big chopper in A2. Everything he has made that I have seen looks like it fits on a molecular level. He deserves the reputation he is earning as do many other fine blade craftsmen. Sometimes when I handle my custom blades (I get them out to fondle from time to time)I feel like I can sense the artistry of the craftman who worked the blade.

I hate it when one of you guys get hit. I wish I had the skills and dedication it takes to create art from metal, bone and plastic.

Ron



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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
Well poopie on you guys. This is my thread and if I want to wine then don't think you can give me some cheese with it. Oops, wrong thread, Sorry.

What thread is this anyway? I can't read it while I'm posting! So I have a choice now, either back out of it to find out, or continue and post anyway and maybe look like an idiot. Hell, I'll take a chance!

Just some lightheartedness
 
I seem to have a real talent for saying exactly the opposite of what I meant.

I personally think that some of the comments that have been made are personal in nature, if they are not, so be it. Note, I wasn't pointing my finger at anyone, yet everyone is pointing their fingers at me. I guess I hit a nerve, but like I said in the other thread, I guess I fail to realize the inflammatory nature of my remarks.

I hope that the rest of your weekend is pleasant.

Ron, please call me or email with a time we can speak, my schedule is open tomorrow. I left my number on your machine.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite and Cobalt Materials Resource Page

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Although I disagree with Marion's initial post, I do respect the man for saying what's on his mind. Folks that will say what they feel without worrying who's toes they're stepping on are few and far between.

Having said that, anyone who pisses on someone's shoes has to be prepared for the consequences. Personally I think Marion handled the retaliation rather well and I would be damned if I would make any kind of apolgies for my honest thoughts on a subject.

It doesn't bother me how old Marion is, how much experince he has, and whether or not he was shi**ing in diapers when the rest of the folks were paying their dues, the fact still remains he has a right to his opinions.

Internet forums are hard place to express what you really mean. Without facial expressions and and other aspects of physical communication, things can be taken wrong.

Anyone wnat to fight about it?
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Jeff

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
Fight about it? Nope.
I and alot of other people gave "our opinion" and he felt we were bringing blood.
I had no intention of that. I'm entitled to my opinion and if the truth hurts, I'm sorry.
If I came on and said, Marion, you are Foxtrot Uniform, that would be sad. I don't feel anyone else did either.

Do I need to explain Foxtrot Uniform?

 
MDP deserves credit for being sincere and knowledgeable. He makes a good point, albeit a bit harshly. But he should not be suprised at the responses. There are a lot of great caring makers out there, such as Kit Carson. Makers such as Kit also deserve a lot of credit.

One point of disagreement with a response - Unfortunately, some great makers will go out of business in five years and some mediocre makers (or in it for the $$$ makers) will be well-off and around in five years. I can think of one over-rated, marketing-savvy maker who has been around for 5 years and will be around for a lot longer. I wouldn't mind except I happen to know that he rushes his products out to the detriment of his customers.
 
Trolls: Messages or threads designed to start emotionally or otherwise highly charged arguments.

The above definition is a direct quote from the BladeForums.com FAQ. I won't discuss intentions although I have my opinions, but I will say that the original post fits that definition pretty well.
 
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